St, John's kicking the Boeheim out of Cuse...

[Dawson Rental]

It's not just the retirement announcement that's dragging them down, the NCAA sanctions a coule of years ago caused them to lose Thomas Bryant to Indiana.

[bilsu]

I'd take Cuse and UConn over Creighton and Butler every day of the week

I do not think Butler or Creighton has ever had any trouble with NCAA. Uconn was nothing before Calhoun and I suspect Syracuse was nothing special befor Bohiem(sp). Right now both Butler and Creighton are better and there is no reason to believe they will not continue to be better the next 10 years.

[bilsu]

Makes me wonder if we'll be as good as 7th in BE.

I think we still finish ahead of St. John's, but it does make me wonder if we can sweep them this year.

[brewcity77]

Uconn was nothing before Calhoun and I suspect Syracuse was nothing special befor Bohiem(sp).

Your suspicions are correct. Syracuse did have a three-year NCAA streak when Boeheim took over, but in their history, only 5 total bids (though 3 did end in the Elite Eight) before Boeheim. I imagine if the new coach takes over on a down note, they may struggle to rise back up to prominence. Look at the moribund football program. Why would basketball be any different without Boeheim?

I think we still finish ahead of St. John's, but it does make me wonder if we can sweep them this year.

I'm not going to get too worried about St. John's just yet. Maybe they are better than we think. Then again...
.

• Syracuse has one top-100 Pomeroy win, over #73 Monmouth.
  
• St. John's has two terrible losses (338 Delaware State & 298 LIU-Brooklyn) and is now just 1-5 against top-200 teams.
  
• UConn is 1-3 against top-100 teams and has two ugly (227 Wagner & 142 Northeastern) losses. Their only top-150 win? Syracuse.

.
Now maybe beating Syracuse is an indicator St. John's is better than we think. But what seems more likely to me is that their losses to Delaware State and LIU Brooklyn, 0-5 record against top-100 teams before playing Syracuse, and the Cuse's own poor track record this season is an indicator that Syracuse just sucks.

[wadesworld]

St. John's always scares me.  Not because they're better than us but because they're almost always full of very athletic kids.  When they're at home all 350 fans sometimes get into the game when they go on some runs full of dunks, and one run can turn a game.

[CTWarrior]

It's not just the retirement announcement that's dragging them down, the NCAA sanctions a coule of years ago caused them to lose Thomas Bryant to Indiana.

I thought that going to the ACC was going to hurt them, as they were a premier program in the BE and now are second banana to UNC, Duke, Virginia, etc.  I don't know if that will come to fruition, but BC has been consistently terrible in football and basketball since joining the ACC.  It hasn't seemed to bother Louisville any, but they've never been a program that relied on their conference to be good.

[brewcity77]

I thought that going to the ACC was going to hurt them, as they were a premier program in the BE and now are second banana to UNC, Duke, Virginia, etc.  I don't know if that will come to fruition, but BC has been consistently terrible in football and basketball since joining the ACC.  It hasn't seemed to bother Louisville any, but they've never been a program that relied on their conference to be good.

I think geography has hurt them like it did BC. Louisville isn't that far removed from ACC territory, but Syracuse is far removed from their league mates. It'll be interesting to see where they are in a decade or so.

[wadesworld]

I think geography has hurt them like it did BC. Louisville isn't that far removed from ACC territory, but Syracuse is far removed from their league mates. It'll be interesting to see where they are in a decade or so.

Honest question, are they that much further on the outskirts of the ACC than Marquette/DePaul were in the old BE, and Creighton is now?

[Babybluejeans]

Honest question, are they that much further on the outskirts of the ACC than Marquette/DePaul were in the old BE, and Creighton is now?

Prior to BC joining, the most northerly school in the ACC was Maryland. It's a long way to Boston and Syracuse from the mid-Atlantic, but it can't be any further than Pittsburgh is to Chicago and Milwaukee. I don't think geography is the reason Syracuse may be down this year.

Is everyone forgetting Syracuse made the freakin Final Four last year?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is everyone forgetting Syracuse made the freakin Final Four last year?

I haven't, but right or wrong...I don't put much stock in it. Syracuse didn't deserve to be in the tournament. They had possibly the worst successful at large resume in NCAA tournament history. They got hot at the right time and Boeheim is a great coach. That's why preseason I wasn't buying the hype and said that they would miss the tournament this year...or that they wouldn't have a tournament worthy resume but somehow still get in.

[forgetful]

Honest question, are they that much further on the outskirts of the ACC than Marquette/DePaul were in the old BE, and Creighton is now?

Good point, but I think it is more complex than that.  It also depends on recruiting base.  Marquette and Creighton have recruiting bases that do not depend on conference identity.  Moving to the BE for both of them made them more appealing to their typical recruit, so recruiting would improve, not be hurt.  They also can take advantage of being the "away school" for players that want to play in the BE, but get away from home. 

Syracuse is a crap-hole of a city; seriously nothing appealing about Syracuse.  Their recruiting base was tied to being the kings of the BE and because of Boeheim.  That appealed to east coast kids that were key elements of their recruitment strategy.  Those recruits grew up dreaming of playing in the BE and playing for Boeheim.

Those same kids aren't dreaming of playing in the ACC, if they were, they were dreaming of playing for Duke/UNC (not Syracuse).  Add to it that Boeheim is leaving and their is little left in appeal.  It was a lateral move that was in opposition to their long term recruiting base.

Its a composite of being geographically isolated (less appealing to the ACC base) and now no longer being associated with the image that made Syracuse attractive to its own recruiting base.  Having a bad year this year puts them in jeopardy of serious decline.  They really needed to come in and dominate the ACC for a couple years to put a stamp on Syracuse/ACC basketball (like MU did in the BE with the 3-amigos...that class was key).  Although they did well their first season, they have been average at best in the ACC since (the final 4 is great, but they would have been better off long term with a winning conference record).

[PGsHeroes32]

I think we still finish ahead of St. John's, but it does make me wonder if we can sweep them this year.

As I said, they have 7 losses already.

This showed 2 things

1. Cuse sucks
2. If you don't take SJU serious they can beat you.

[Lennys Tap]

Good point, but I think it is more complex than that.  It also depends on recruiting base.  Marquette and Creighton have recruiting bases that do not depend on conference identity.  Moving to the BE for both of them made them more appealing to their typical recruit, so recruiting would improve, not be hurt.  They also can take advantage of being the "away school" for players that want to play in the BE, but get away from home. 

Syracuse is a crap-hole of a city; seriously nothing appealing about Syracuse.  Their recruiting base was tied to being the kings of the BE and because of Boeheim.  That appealed to east coast kids that were key elements of their recruitment strategy.  Those recruits grew up dreaming of playing in the BE and playing for Boeheim.

Those same kids aren't dreaming of playing in the ACC, if they were, they were dreaming of playing for Duke/UNC (not Syracuse).  Add to it that Boeheim is leaving and their is little left in appeal.  It was a lateral move that was in opposition to their long term recruiting base.

Its a composite of being geographically isolated (less appealing to the ACC base) and now no longer being associated with the image that made Syracuse attractive to its own recruiting base.  Having a bad year this year puts them in jeopardy of serious decline.  They really needed to come in and dominate the ACC for a couple years to put a stamp on Syracuse/ACC basketball (like MU did in the BE with the 3-amigos...that class was key).  Although they did well their first season, they have been average at best in the ACC since (the final 4 is great, but they would have been better off long term with a winning conference record).

Yep - the coach who follows Boeheim at Syracuse will have a very tough job.

[dgies9156]

Syracuse is like Vanderbilt this year:

   Historically a quality name in college basketball

   Crappy team this year with limited prospects for the NCAA

Kinda like us in the past two years.

[brewcity77]

Honest question, are they that much further on the outskirts of the ACC than Marquette/DePaul were in the old BE, and Creighton is now?

They aren't, and that's fair. I'd say of those, Marquette may be the biggest outlier.

The identity of the ACC has always been the southern, relatively coastal schools. BC and Syracuse don't fit that identity at all. The NBE changed identity to a primarily private, Catholic school focus. That fits Creighton, and it helps that they (like Marquette) had coaching consistency.

[PJDunn]

The move to the ACC destroyed BC's athletic programs.  They are truly dismal.  I would suspect that UConn and Syracuse's men's basketball and football programs are headed for tough times.  The ACC just not a great fit for a NE school.  UConn's womens program on the other hand will continue to dominate until Gino leaves.

[mileskishnish72]

I can't even whip up a small fraction of hatred for Butler and Creighton compared to how I felt about Syracuse (especially) and UConn.
I find myself kind of rooting for our BE brethren now, whereas previously I never felt like that.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I can't even whip up a small fraction of hatred for Butler and Creighton compared to how I felt about Syracuse (especially) and UConn.
I find myself kind of rooting for our BE brethren now, whereas previously I never felt like that.

I hate Creighton way more than UConn.

[MarquetteDano]

I hate Creighton way more than UConn.

I was okay with them until last year when we were up in their house and cheap shots started to fly. Game got more than chippy.

[brewcity77]

I can't even whip up a small fraction of hatred for Butler and Creighton compared to how I felt about Syracuse (especially) and UConn.
I find myself kind of rooting for our BE brethren now, whereas previously I never felt like that.

I always cheered for our BE brethren in non-con and tourney play. Except ND. I think it's because it's still new. At first in the Big East, we were just trying to prove we belonged, but after 6, 7, 8 years, we built some rivalries. That came from meaningful games against those teams. I have a feeling once we start playing meaningful games again, we'll get that old rivalry feeling. If we come into that Creighton game on March 4 at 9-8, it will feel pretty darn important. And if we are playing Butler in the Big East semis, I think that rivalry feeling will start brewing.

Personally, I've felt that for Butler since 2013, when we knew they were coming into the league and we had the Rotnei Clarke vomit shot in Maui, only to get them back with the comeback to reach the Sweet 16. Been a pretty good matchup since, obviously we were crap in 2015, but we have gone to overtime twice in 6 meetings and a 2-4 record has been pretty even.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

While my head cheers for our Big East brethern in non-con.....this is the first season my heart has started to cheer for their opponents. The hatred born from rivalry is starting to form. This is a good thing.