Monster Cluster Eff

[GGGG]

LOL.  Right.  I'm out to get you.  You learned victimization from your friend too I see.

[real chili 83]

You two need to get a room. 

Chicos and Lenny, v2

[rocket surgeon]

LOL.  Right.  I'm out to get you.  You learned victimization from your friend too I see.

nope-but sure are trying-read, starts with a "t" and ryhmes with mole.  have ya ever thought about stamp collecting, maybe coins?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

sorry- i can see where my statement didn't clarify the rape part.  what i got caught in doing was presenting different scenarios with the same outcome or conclusion.  what i am saying is BOTH rapes are WRONG regardless if a woman is dressed provocatively OR in an ugly suit.  i don't care if the woman was bare naked walking down the street-if she doesn't consent, it's rape.  now walking down the street naked part is a whole different can of worms in and of itself, but i don't mean to digress

Thanks for the clarification. 100% agree

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Broad sweeping statements like this don't help your point.  I've enjoyed reading your perspective on this topic.

I understand, but that was part of the point I was making. When news was coming out about people being raped and kidnapped by uber drivers in Chicago (some real, some fake) I heard/saw many comments that the women should have known better than to get into an uber alone when this had been happening.

[Lennys Tap]

This is very....concerning to me. If, god-forbid, your daughter, wife or another woman you cared about was raped, I hope your level of sympathy towards them wouldn't be dependent on how many risk reduction strategies they were using to prevent the rape. It doesn't seem like a very Jesuit way of thinking.

Is it just alcohol that effects your level of sympathy? What if the woman was walking alone at night? That greatly increases your risk of being assaulted. Is she less deserving of sympathy? What if she took her eyes off her beverage for a few seconds and had something slipped into it? Does that make her less worthy of sympathy? What if she got on an uber in Chicago with all the news of uber drivers assaulting their passengers? What if she met a guy who seemed nice and gave him her number and he then used that to track her and rape her? How many steps must she take in order to prevent her rape in order for her to be worthy of your full sympathy?

This may be an argument over vocabulary. I can understand simply stating that she could have reduced her risk but to withhold sympathy based on vulnerability seems very questionable.

If one of my daughters went to a party with 10 football players, got drunk, consented to have sex with some of them but maybe not all of them I would want anyone who forced themselves on her to go to prison for a long time. I would also be terribly disappointed in my daughter. I think that disappointment would, to some degree, mitigate my sympathy.

[jesmu84]

     i think many would agree that to keep bringing him up in a "backhanded" way 1) provocative and 2)unnecessary and 3) a passive/aggressive way to smack a fellow 'scooper who can't defend himself is uncalled for.  when he would sneak back on here under a different log-in, some would call him out and "diagnose" him with some type of "problem".  my responses are-check your mirror and i know chicos doesn't "NEED" me to do anything.  the guy is gone-end of story.  i'm sure you would do the same for a friend of yours

I thought you said, multiple times, that he didn't do this.

[rocket surgeon]

I thought you said, multiple times, that he didn't do this.

no i didn't.  go back and read what context i did say-multiple times he didn't do THIS.    honeybadger was one of the posters he was accused of being, of which he was not.  there were at least one or two others people thought were chicos, but were not.  it's all about context

" Coleman
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Re: We can do better. We need to. All MU fans
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2016, 02:45:44 PM »
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 15, 2016, 02:37:34 PM
totally agree with chick-you guys are brutal.  honeybadger and all the others were NOT chicos.  it was a troll trying to sound like him so you guys would think it was him.  so unless you know for sure, which you don't, knock it off!  i spoke to him specifically about those posts and they weren't him-why would he lie to me as he has no plans trying to get back on the board.  he knows one little slip or msg that comes across the wrong way, he'll get bombed-not worth his or anyone's time.  you guys who are gloating, thinking karma and all that b.s., fine, hope ya feel better

Are you familiar with the concept of occam's razor?

Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.


Here we have two hypotheses:

1) After being banned, Chicos created another screen name, as he has admitted to doing many times in the past, to continue the exact same types of political discussions he never could resist.

2) A different forum member, with no vested interest in doing so, created another screen name and tried to sound like Chicos pretending to be an African American in Madison, because he wanted other people to think he was Chicos, for no reason.

Coleman
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[MU82]

If one of my daughters went to a party with 10 football players, got drunk, consented to have sex with some of them but maybe not all of them I would want anyone who forced themselves on her to go to prison for a long time. I would also be terribly disappointed in my daughter. I think that disappointment would, to some degree, mitigate my sympathy.

You say this and maybe you even think it's true. But if it actually happened to your daughter, I'm guessing your sympathy wouldn't be mitigated one iota. Just my opinion and hopefully one that will never have to be proven (don't even know if you have a daughter; I do).

It's like the strict, anti-gay people all of a sudden having sympathy for the cause as soon as one of their kids comes out of the closet.

[tower912]

I have a 21 year old daughter.    When the alleged assaults took place at MU, I used it as a teaching moment for her.    Star athletes, entitlement mentality among some males, when no means no, both in the eyes of the law and realistically.    The dangers of drunken sex, the problems with social media...... man, I had her embarrassed and pissed at me.     But, through 3 1/2 year of college, no problems that she has shared with me. 

[Lennys Tap]

You say this and maybe you even think it's true. But if it actually happened to your daughter, I'm guessing your sympathy wouldn't be mitigated one iota. Just my opinion and hopefully one that will never have to be proven (don't even know if you have a daughter; I do).

It's like the strict, anti-gay people all of a sudden having sympathy for the cause as soon as one of their kids comes out of the closet.

I have two daughters. My oldest got her undergraduate degree at Marquette, the youngest (and #3 of 4 children) at SLU.

I can't imagine them behaving like the young woman at Minnesota, but if either of them did my sympathy would be mixed with disappointment - and disappointment waters it down a bit.

As for the gay analogy, it doesn't fit. A child had no choice (and therefore no responsibility) for his or her sexual orientation. So I would have total sympathy for anyone persecuted because of it.

[Lennys Tap]

I have a 21 year old daughter.    When the alleged assaults took place at MU, I used it as a teaching moment for her.    Star athletes, entitlement mentality among some males, when no means no, both in the eyes of the law and realistically.    The dangers of drunken sex, the problems with social media...... man, I had her embarrassed and pissed at me.     But, through 3 1/2 year of college, no problems that she has shared with me.

Our daughters are different ages but we've had the same discussions.

[GGGG]

I have a 21 year old daughter.    When the alleged assaults took place at MU, I used it as a teaching moment for her.    Star athletes, entitlement mentality among some males, when no means no, both in the eyes of the law and realistically.    The dangers of drunken sex, the problems with social media...... man, I had her embarrassed and pissed at me.     But, through 3 1/2 year of college, no problems that she has shared with me. 

OK but that's not really the point.  Even if you teach her this, and even if she listened, she still could find herself in that situation.  Maybe 99% of the time, she would make the right choices.  But maybe she doesn't that 1% for whatever reasons.

And she should deserve less sympathy for that 1%?  Because she didn't exercise "personal responsibility" 100% of the time?

Nah.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

As for the gay analogy, it doesn't fit. A child had no choice (and therefore no responsibility) for his or her sexual orientation. So I would have total sympathy for anyone persecuted because of it.

This woman had no choice once the players decided to force themselves on her. That is what you are missing. The lead up does not matter. Judge and shame away for the drinking and sex with multiple partners. But letting it affect your sympathy for what happened to her is misguided.

[warriorchick]

Our daughters are different ages but we've had the same discussions.

But what discussions have you had with your sons?

[rocket surgeon]

I thought you said, multiple times, that he didn't do this.

just an FYI, he wasn't FreeRepublic either-someone here is messing with a lot of you and you're all falling for it.  he might check in once in a while to see what's going on, but i think many of you are familiar with the term "rent free".  check it out in urban dictionary if you aren't-there should be a picture of some 'scoop people with it's description as well

[naginiF]

But what discussions have you had with your sons?

And that (as the father of two young boys) is the only question that matters.  Once again, thanks Chick for getting to the real issue.

[Lennys Tap]

But what discussions have you had with your sons?

Good and fair question, chick. I told them to be polite and (though it's old fashioned) chivalrous. I told them to respect all women like they did their sisters and their mother and to not be afraid to intercede if they saw guys acting like they didn't. I told them to never so much as take a girl's hand or kiss her without encouragement. And that no (at any time) unequivocally meant no. And beyond discussion I tried to show a good example in the way I treated their mother.

[naginiF]

just an FYI, he wasn't FreeRepublic either-someone here is messing with a lot of you and you're all falling for it.  he might check in once in a while to see what's going on, but i think many of you are familiar with the term "rent free".  check it out in urban dictionary if you aren't-there should be a picture of some 'scoop people with it's description as well

OK...Wow!  I may be the only one but I have no idea who the actual person Chico's is.  I do know that he turned himself into a Scoop meme by his preposterous logic shifting arguments, need for attention and continuous stalking. 

It's the meme that is being attacked.....Chico's is now part of Scoop lore like #donedeal, 'aine, crean sux, N'ers, or the "it's happening" GIF.  By defending 'Chicos' you only ensure the meme grows stronger.

[Lennys Tap]

This woman had no choice once the players decided to force themselves on her. That is what you are missing. The lead up does not matter. Judge and shame away for the drinking and sex with multiple partners. But letting it affect your sympathy for what happened to her is misguided.

I'm not missing that. And I sympathize with her. It shouldn't have happened to her and if those other guys really raped her I'm for locking them up and tossing the key. But her own choices and extremely reckless behavior made her more vulnerable and even cast some doubt about what actually happened. That's a mitigating factor for me. I gather that makes me cruel in your (and sultan's) eyes, but I think it's more cruel to excuse and ultimately enable that kind of recklessness.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm not missing that. And I sympathize with her. It shouldn't have happened to her and if those other guys really raped her I'm for locking them up and tossing the key. But her own choices and extremely reckless behavior made her more vulnerable and even cast some doubt about what actually happened. That's a mitigating factor for me. I gather that makes me cruel in your (and sultan's) eyes, but I think it's more cruel to excuse and ultimately enable that kind of recklessness.

Its not excusing or enabling. I just recognize that it is a completely separate issue. Her actions before don't make what happened to her any less terrible. Being raped is not an appropriate response or punishment for reckless behavior. Whether you are trying to or not, you are sending the message that she is partially at fault for the heinous actions of the men who raped her. The only person who is at fault is the attacker.

I don't think you are cruel. I do think you have some discomfort and bias around this topic. In this and other conversations you have repeated this line about "personal responsibility" which sends the message that victim's are responsible for their own rape. You also tend to spend a lot of time focused on the victim's responsibility  and very little on the responsibility of the attacker. I'm not sure why this is the case but I would encourage you to reflect and think about what the Jesuits would say about these situations. Do you really think they would teach their students to have less sympathy for rape victims based on how risky their behavior was before?

You didn't answer my earlier question. What if the young woman was walking alone at night? That greatly increases her risk of being attacked. Would you have less sympathy for her for doing something so reckless?

[rocket surgeon]

OK...Wow!  I may be the only one but I have no idea who the actual person Chico's is.  I do know that he turned himself into a Scoop meme by his preposterous logic shifting arguments, need for attention and continuous stalking. 

It's the meme that is being attacked.....Chico's is now part of Scoop lore like #donedeal, 'aine, crean sux, N'ers, or the "it's happening" GIF.  By defending 'Chicos' you only ensure the meme grows stronger.

that's a pretty narrow minded, myopic summary and viewpoint, but if that's what you want to go with, have a good one.  the real chicos/jams was closer to the last post he wrote-"we can do better, we need to. to all MU fans"   
       there is a good dude in there, but from your post, it seems that you "slept in" during the jesuit parts of your MU experience.

    my point is that despite what some here want to believe that he is still haunting/stalking the scoop, he has moved on and is doing very well with an occasional chuckle hearing his name live on in 'scooper lore perpetrated by some squatter(s) who can't let it go.   

[Lennys Tap]

Its not excusing or enabling. I just recognize that it is a completely separate issue. Her actions before don't make what happened to her any less terrible. Being raped is not an appropriate response or punishment for reckless behavior. Whether you are trying to or not, you are sending the message that she is partially at fault for the heinous actions of the men who raped her. The only person who is at fault is the attacker.

I don't think you are cruel. I do think you have some discomfort and bias around this topic. In this and other conversations you have repeated this line about "personal responsibility" which sends the message that victim's are responsible for their own rape. You also tend to spend a lot of time focused on the victim's responsibility  and very little on the responsibility of the attacker. I'm not sure why this is the case but I would encourage you to reflect and think about what the Jesuits would say about these situations. Do you really think they would teach their students to have less sympathy for rape victims based on how risky their behavior was before?

You didn't answer my earlier question. What if the young woman was walking alone at night? That greatly increases her risk of being attacked. Would you have less sympathy for her for doing something so reckless?

I'll answer your last paragraph first. Good question, since walking alone at night is not a good idea, not a very responsible thing to do. But in spite of that I concede that I would have the same amount of sympathy for her as I would for two women out walking who are attacked. Why? Because while being out alone may be somewhat irresponsible it doesn't go to the heart of her believability.

The case we've been discussing is different. I know rape can be hard to prove, but the DA had a video! But even given that no charges were filed. Why? Victim impaired, mixed, maybe confusing messaging, reasonable doubt. Bottom line, even with a video the DA didn't think 12 people would believe her story (or at least would doubt it). Her reckless behavior makes her less believable, which makes her less sympathetic.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'll answer your last paragraph first. Good question, since walking alone at night is not a good idea, not a very responsible thing to do. But in spite of that I concede that I would have the same amount of sympathy for her as I would for two women out walking who are attacked. Why? Because while being out alone may be somewhat irresponsible it doesn't go to the heart of her believability.

The case we've been discussing is different. I know rape can be hard to prove, but the DA had a video! But even given that no charges were filed. Why? Victim impaired, mixed, maybe confusing messaging, reasonable doubt. Bottom line, even with a video the DA didn't think 12 people would believe her story (or at least would doubt it). Her reckless behavior makes her less believable, which makes her less sympathetic.

Is that a problem with her? Or a problem with the average 12 people?

[Lennys Tap]

Is that a problem with her? Or a problem with the average 12 people?

C'mon, now. You don't really want the trial after the execution, do you? You prefer guilty unless proven innocent?