Big East Big Men

[mattyv1908]

In what's been a tough four year stretch in which I find this current MU basketball iteration to lack a compelling reason to be engaged, I found yesterday's game to be revealing.

We play in the Big East.  It's a unique brand of college basketball that forges a different road to success than most conferences and their stereotypes associated with their basketball styles. 

If Wojo cannot recruit Big East big men like Ochefu, Delgado, etc. he'll never have success in this conference.  Hell, Gardner and Otule were better big men for this conference than anyone Wojo has recruited including Ellenson to play the post.  It's a physical, grimy, uptempo game in this conference and Wojo seems to covet the poor man's version of what's going on in Madison.

Either that or leave the conference because we'll never compete with the likes of Nova, Xavier, Providence or any of the other teams true to the brand of basketball that is played in the Big East if we become Wisconsin lite.

[wadesworld]

Hank was absolutely the type of big needed. Ike and John are both the types of bigs.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

MUFINY gets banned and MattyV resurfaces after a year long hiatus the next day...interesting

[jesmu84]

MUFINY gets banned and MattyV resurfaces after a year long hiatus the next day...interesting

Whoa

[JD]

MUFINY gets banned and MattyV resurfaces after a year long hiatus the next day...interesting

What a coincidence

[Dawson Rental]

I'm obviously not sophisicated enough to answer.  Hell, I thought that we were competing with Providence when we swept the series with them last year.

I guess this is the type of analysis you make when you're not engaged.

In what's been a tough four year stretch in which I find this current MU basketball iteration to lack a compelling reason to be engaged, I found yesterday's game to be revealing.

We play in the Big East.  It's a unique brand of college basketball that forges a different road to success than most conferences and their stereotypes associated with their basketball styles. 

If Wojo cannot recruit Big East big men like Ochefu, Delgado, etc. he'll never have success in this conference.  Hell, Gardner and Otule were better big men for this conference than anyone Wojo has recruited including Ellenson to play the post.  It's a physical, grimy, uptempo game in this conference and Wojo seems to covet the poor man's version of what's going on in Madison.

Either that or leave the conference because we'll never compete with the likes of Nova, Xavier, Providence or any of the other teams true to the brand of basketball that is played in the Big East if we become Wisconsin lite.

[brandx]

Hey MattyV, how's Deonte doing this year?

[real chili 83]

MUFINY gets banned and MattyV resurfaces after a year long hiatus the next day...interesting

When did that happen?

Chicos resurfaced in the game chat on Saturday.  He was relatively tranquil.

[brandx]

Back to the question at hand. I don't think we can compete this year with no power forward on the team. But more than just size, it is toughness.

We don't have it. Villanova  - another small team, does.

We are about the same size. We shoot about the same percentage. We're better at 3s and FTs. We have more steals and assists. Rebounds & blocks are the same. But they are a contender to win it all and we will struggle to make the tournament as an 11 or 12 seed.

[jesmu84]

Back to the question at hand. I don't think we can compete this year with no power forward on the team. But more than just size, it is toughness.

We don't have it. Villanova  - another small team, does.

We are about the same size. We shoot about the same percentage. We're better at 3s and FTs. We have more steals and assists. Rebounds & blocks are the same. But they are a contender to win it all and we will struggle to make the tournament as an 11 or 12 seed.

You're assertion is that the only difference between MU and Nova is toughness?

[GGGG]

Back to the question at hand. I don't think we can compete this year with no power forward on the team. But more than just size, it is toughness.

We don't have it. Villanova  - another small team, does.

We are about the same size. We shoot about the same percentage. We're better at 3s and FTs. We have more steals and assists. Rebounds & blocks are the same. But they are a contender to win it all and we will struggle to make the tournament as an 11 or 12 seed.

Nova is bigger than MU.  They don't have a Fischer, but they have a bulky front line that we can't replicate.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

When did that happen?

After another tirade about how Wojo is evil incarnate and a horrible human being...brought on, I suspect, by Wojo's instance that JJJ take a seat for much of the Wisconsin game after again driving into four guys, losing the ball, and not hustling back on defense.

[brandx]

You're assertion is that the only difference between MU and Nova is toughness?

No. The biggest difference is they have guys who know how to play.

We shoot as good, rebound as good, etc. Yet there is no comparison between the two teams.

[brandx]

Nova is bigger than MU.  They don't have a Fischer, but they have a bulky front line that we can't replicate.

Exactly. That is why I said we can't win (in the BE) without a power forward.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

When did that happen?

Chicos resurfaced in the game chat on Saturday.  He was relatively tranquil.

Was really tempted to prod him, but thought better of it.

[jesmu84]

No. The biggest difference is they have guys who know how to play.

We shoot as good, rebound as good, etc. Yet there is no comparison between the two teams.

I assume you're speaking it the abstract, as you seem to be discrediting any statistical difference between the teams.

I happen to agree with you, to a point. Those players on Nova are experienced in a system and within BE games/D1 hoops. Give our players time. Especially those personally recruited by Wojo.

Unless a team has incredibly high talent levels (one and dones), it typically takes until a team has upperclassmen with game experience to succeed consistently at this level. We don't have that (among other things)

[real chili 83]

Was really tempted to prod him, but thought better of it.

Thanks for not going there.  Chat isn't moderated the same way and could have made a bad day worse. 

[brandx]

I assume you're speaking it the abstract, as you seem to be discrediting any statistical difference between the teams.

I happen to agree with you, to a point. Those players on Nova are experienced in a system and within BE games/D1 hoops. Give our players time. Especially those personally recruited by Wojo.

Unless a team has incredibly high talent levels (one and dones), it typically takes until a team has upperclassmen with game experience to succeed consistently at this level. We don't have that (among other things)

I think we mostly agree here.

But ......

Their top 8 include 3 seniors, 1 junior, 3 sophs, and 1 freshman.

Our top 9 include 3 seniors, 2 juniors, 2 sophs, and 2 freshmen.


Their upperclassmen were better players so they played a little more early.

[Jay Bee]

Back to the question at hand. I don't think we can compete this year with no power forward on the team. But more than just size, it is toughness.

We don't have it. Villanova  - another small team, does.

We are about the same size.

Nova's height = 68th biggest in the nation

Marquette = in the 200's

Nova's experience = top 100
MU's = around #200

[brandx]

Nova's height = 68th biggest in the nation

Marquette = in the 200's

Nova's experience = top 100
MU's = around #200

Very misleading. Their two 6'10" guys don't see the floor against good teams. Nova has one guy over 6'7" in the rotation and he is 6'9". Other than PG, the other four starters on the 2 teams average exactly the same height.

[Jay Bee]

Very misleading. Their two 6'10" guys don't see the floor against good teams. Nova has one guy over 6'7" in the rotation and he is 6'9". Other than PG, the other four starters on the 2 teams average exactly the same height.

No. not at all misleading. The numbers I listed take into account minutes played by each player -- it's an ACTUAL weighted avg height. You are simply wrong.

[cheebs09]

No. not at all misleading. The numbers I listed take into account minutes played by each player -- it's an ACTUAL weighted avg height. You are simply wrong.

Does this likely indicate more the lack of size in our backcourt than up front?

Between Howard, Rowsey, Wilson, and Carter, that seems like a lot of minutes to small guards. Even JJJ is probably shorter than an average 3. Granted losing Sam's height at the 4 when he is on the bench makes us fairly small too.

[Jay Bee]

Does this likely indicate more the lack of size in our backcourt than up front?

Between Howard, Rowsey, Wilson, and Carter, that seems like a lot of minutes to small guards. Even JJJ is probably shorter than an average 3. Granted losing Sam's height at the 4 when he is on the. Envy makes us fairly small too.

It's a mix -- and you hit on both: 1) We don't have tall minutes other than a few from Matt once you get past 6'11 Luke and 2) we have some short guards like Markus, Traci, Rowsey...

So, with the help of Luke our effective height (avg of two tallest weighted Ave mins) we're ~140 in the nation... but avg height (all players) we're ~210

PS- we had Markus/Andrew/Duane out there together vs Becky... bebe warriors

[Norm]

Hank was absolutely the type of big needed. Ike and John are both the types of bigs.

Just keep in mind that Ike has only played basketball for three years, so he is going to need time to develop once he gets to MU. He is a good player but is still a little raw and has had the benefit of playing with Cassius Winston the previous two years.