Peaks and Valleys of MU BB

[GGGG]

The last four years has felt very much like the late Deane / early Crean era.  It's nowhere close to as bad as Dukiet.  I'm just hoping that the good years will follow like it did in the mid 2000s. 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Mueller vs Candelino and Nathen is not even worth discussing. When we hit Candelino levels it was rock bottom in program history. Not going to try and defend Mueller, but at least he was not called on to contribute. I pray to God I never see the Dukiet era re-lived again.

I think this is the same Anthony Candelino
http://jacksonville.com/sports/basketball/2016-06-07/story/high-schools-notebook-anthony-candelino-resigns-bolles-basketball

[HoopsterBC]

The last four years has felt very much like the late Deane / early Crean era.  It's nowhere close to as bad as Dukiet.  I'm just hoping that the good years will follow like it did in the mid 2000s.

All the bad stems from Buzz leaving the program with nothing.  The 2 seniors are average and DWilson is that as well.  None of those 3 really are difference makers.
Sure on a given night they will a good game, but no consistency.  JJJ is just a defensive liability, it is amazing he plays at all.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

JJJ is just a defensive liability.

IMO, he's just gotten into the bad habit of playing every possession for the chance at a steal and break away dunk.  He certainly has all the athletic ability required to play excellent fundamental defense if he wants.

[Goose]

HoopsterBC

I disagree on your assessment of JJJ, Luke and Wilson. All three of those guys would be contributors on almost every 20 team in the country. In addition, he was left Burton who has played quite nicely at a program much more advanced than MU. He was not left the 60's Celtics, but he was left some talent to work around.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Mueller vs Candelino and Nathen is not even worth discussing. When we hit Candelino levels it was rock bottom in program history. Not going to try and defend Mueller, but at least he was not called on to contribute. I pray to God I never see the Dukiet era re-lived again.

Talking about my time span at MU!

[HoopsterBC]

HoopsterBC

I disagree on your assessment of JJJ, Luke and Wilson. All three of those guys would be contributors on almost every 20 team in the country. In addition, he was left Burton who has played quite nicely at a program much more advanced than MU. He was not left the 60's Celtics, but he was left some talent to work around.

OK,  opinions are great,  I disagree.  Luke has not developed a game other than backing himself to the basket.  He is good shooter, Wojo should take advantage of
that and has not done anything to create different looks for him.  Wojo fault?  maybe, but he is so soft defensively.  Again, Wojo puts him 25 feet from the basket, again  Wojo have something to do with that.  Maybe a coaching issue on him.

JJJ, enigma, at times he shows great talent, at times no talent.  Takes chances on D, once a game he wins.  Soft again, and has one thought on his mind to drive the
right side of the hoop.  He has made some jump shots, but does not let the flow the offense come to him.   At times defensively, not there.

Duane,  I remember how they compared Koenig and him, boy there is no comparison now.  This one is challenging to me,  looks like he is healthy but Wojo does not
seem to like him much.  Volume shooter, that needs time to play but not getting it.  A starter most of his life, I am sure hard on him.

So 3 highly rated kids out of high school, have they lived up to there rating or hype, in my mind, no.  For sure not leaders.
 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

JJJ is just a defensive liability, it is amazing he plays at all.

JJJ leads the team in D-Rating. He is also second on the team in Net Pts (a statistic that combines o and d rating). I think by any objective measure he is our best defender and 2nd best player overall. He also leads the team in lowest basketball IQ. That is why I personally get frustrated with him. Such a good player who makes such questionable decisions.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

HoopsterBC

I disagree on your assessment of JJJ, Luke and Wilson. All three of those guys would be contributors on almost every 20 team in the country. In addition, he was left Burton who has played quite nicely at a program much more advanced than MU. He was not left the 60's Celtics, but he was left some talent to work around.

I think most top 20 teams would be happy to have Luke or JJJ as one of their starters. I think all of them would be mortified if either of them was one of their top two players. Let alone both.

Disagree on Wilson. 8th on the team in O-rating. 5th on the team in D-rating. Haven't seen much from him this season. Have almost wondered if having his legs back has thrown off his game.

[Lennys Tap]

OK,  opinions are great,  I disagree.  Luke has not developed a game other than backing himself to the basket.  He is good shooter, Wojo should take advantage of
that and has not done anything to create different looks for him.  Wojo fault?  maybe, but he is so soft defensively.  Again, Wojo puts him 25 feet from the basket, again  Wojo have something to do with that.  Maybe a coaching issue on him.

JJJ, enigma, at times he shows great talent, at times no talent.  Takes chances on D, once a game he wins.  Soft again, and has one thought on his mind to drive the
right side of the hoop.  He has made some jump shots, but does not let the flow the offense come to him.   At times defensively, not there.

Duane,  I remember how they compared Koenig and him, boy there is no comparison now.  This one is challenging to me,  looks like he is healthy but Wojo does not
seem to like him much.  Volume shooter, that needs time to play but not getting it.  A starter most of his life, I am sure hard on him.

So 3 highly rated kids out of high school, have they lived up to there rating or hype, in my mind, no.  For sure not leaders.
 

Don't like any of those top 100 guys Buzz left for Wojo in his 3rd year? You might want to remember what Crean left behind for Buzz in his 3rd year - zilch, zip, nada, nothing. And what did Buzz do in year 3 with no holdovers from the TC era? Oh yeah - went to the Sweet 16. This weeping and gnashing of teeth for poor ol' Wojo has got to cease.

[Loose Cannon]

IMO, he's just gotten into the bad habit of playing every possession for the chance at a steal and break away dunk.  He certainly has all the athletic ability required to play excellent fundamental defense if he wants.

Yep, it's above the Neck.

[brewcity77]

JJJ leads the team in D-Rating. He is also second on the team in Net Pts (a statistic that combines o and d rating). I think by any objective measure he is our best defender and 2nd best player overall. He also leads the team in lowest basketball IQ. That is why I personally get frustrated with him. Such a good player who makes such questionable decisions.

Here's the thing with JJ...my guess is he has a good defensive rating because he is elite at stealing the basketball. His 5.2 steal percentage is 2nd in the league and 12th in the nation. He does great at turning errant passes into points. However he still isn't a great man defender. He sometimes gambles too much and can get stuck in traffic. When he's good, he's great, but when he's bad, he's abysmal. But when it comes to trying to rate a defender, things like blocks and steals can skew statistics for guys that are average defenders in the other aspects of the game.

EDIT: For instance, JJ this year is notably better at block percentage, steal percentage, and defensive rebounding percentage than Jimmy Butler ever was. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a higher defensive rating than Jimmy. But if you needed to lock someone down, if you needed one of those two playing defense for you, which would you pick? I'd take Jimmy every single time and it's not even a question.

[RJax55]

Brew, his help defense is poor as well. Against UW, he was either far too slow or failed to rotate over numerous times.

The big reason MU gives up some many uncontested lay-ups and dunks is that our help defense is poor overall. Yes, guys are getting beat, but then MU compounds it by not rotating.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Here's the thing with JJ...my guess is he has a good defensive rating because he is elite at stealing the basketball. His 5.2 steal percentage is 2nd in the league and 12th in the nation. He does great at turning errant passes into points. However he still isn't a great man defender. He sometimes gambles too much and can get stuck in traffic. When he's good, he's great, but when he's bad, he's abysmal. But when it comes to trying to rate a defender, things like blocks and steals can skew statistics for guys that are average defenders in the other aspects of the game.

EDIT: For instance, JJ this year is notably better at block percentage, steal percentage, and defensive rebounding percentage than Jimmy Butler ever was. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a higher defensive rating than Jimmy. But if you needed to lock someone down, if you needed one of those two playing defense for you, which would you pick? I'd take Jimmy every single time and it's not even a question.

I agree to a point. But you can't just throw out the fact that JJJ is very good at stealing, blocking, rebounding, etc. All those things are part of being a good defender.

[brewcity77]

I agree to a point. But you can't just throw out the fact that JJJ is very good at stealing, blocking, rebounding, etc. All those things are part of being a good defender.

If this makes sense, I think they do more to help the defense than actually contribute to being a good defender.

My main contention is that JJ isn't our best defender, mainly because of that aforementioned basketball IQ. Traci and Katin are both better defenders. Their contributions may not show up on the stat sheet, but I have far more faith in their ability to lock a guy down than I do of JJ.

[MarquetteDano]

Don't like any of those top 100 guys Buzz left for Wojo in his 3rd year? You might want to remember what Crean left behind for Buzz in his 3rd year - zilch, zip, nada, nothing. And what did Buzz do in year 3 with no holdovers from the TC era? Oh yeah - went to the Sweet 16. This weeping and gnashing of teeth for poor ol' Wojo has got to cease.

Yup. Excuses need to end. Year 3 people.

[WarriorFan]

^This.  Not that I would want us to settle for where the program is now--I want to get back to expected S16-S16-E8 runs--but if you lived through Rod Grosse, Roman Mueller, Anthony Candelino, Joe Nethen, et al., then you know we aren't anywhere near the valley.

My era as well... unfortunately.  I remember Candelino and Nethen getting torched even at the rec center.  Any 5 guys who usually played on court 3 back then could beat any 5 players from that MU team (with the exception of Tony Smith).

[Goose]

TAMU

IMO all three of them are in the rotation on almost any team in the country. Agree they would not be top one or two guys, but 20 minute or more guys. I think Wilson would benefit a great deal by a change of environment. At the moment a complete of confidence is hurting him.

[real chili 83]

My era as well... unfortunately.  I remember Candelino and Nethen getting torched even at the rec center.  Any 5 guys who usually played on court 3 back then could beat any 5 players from that MU team (with the exception of Tony Smith).

So you're saying I could have dunked on them too.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

IMO all three of them are in the rotation on almost any team in the country. Agree they would not be top one or two guys, but 20 minute or more guys. I think Wilson would benefit a great deal by a change of environment. At the moment a complete of confidence is hurting him.

I don't disagree with you. They could be in the rotation anywhere. Unfortunately they are our two of our best players and one sub. I'm not sure if its confidence hurting Duane. His legs are 100% for the first time in years. That can mess with your shot if you've been playing hurt and compensating for it for awhile.

[Norm]

My era as well... unfortunately.  I remember Candelino and Nethen getting torched even at the rec center.  Any 5 guys who usually played on court 3 back then could beat any 5 players from that MU team (with the exception of Tony Smith).

I was there from 1987-91 as well. The 1991 class has the worst winning percentage of any MU class since World War II. However, a five of Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Mark Anglavar, Tyrone Baldwin, and any one of Mike Flory/Pat Foley/Pop Sims would beat any challenging 5 from the Rec Center.

I know you were just joking, but as bad the Warriors were in that era, they still had a handful of decent players - they just had no bench whatsoever and were plagued with injuries, suspensions, academic casualties, etc.. Thank God Kevin O'Neill arrived when he did.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I was there from 1987-91 as well. The 1991 class has the worst winning percentage of any MU class since World War II. However, a five of Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Mark Anglavar, Tyrone Baldwin, and any one of Mike Flory/Pat Foley/Pop Sims would beat any challenging 5 from the Rec Center.

I know you were just joking, but as bad the Warriors were in that era, they still had a handful of decent players - they just had no bench whatsoever and were plagued with injuries, suspensions, academic casualties, etc.. Thank God Kevin O'Neill arrived when he did.

I think I still have my Thank you Tony & Ty sign in my attic crawlspace from their Senior day.

[Goose]

I still have my Dukiet Farewell Tour t-shirt somewhere.