UW-Madison game thread

[jesmu84]

JjJ not showing up in big games, like NY = coaching error.
Getting manhandled by bigger, more physical teams= coaching error.
Duane unable to shoot the ball into Lake Michigan= coaching error. 
Scoring 80+ pts against Wisconsin=Coaching error.   
Lack of upperclassmen willing to lead=coaching error.

MU's problems are size related (we don't have any) which leads to defensive failings when our only big ends up guarding people 20 ft from the basket.     Which I started predicting 6 months ago.   

Every bad thing associated with this team is wojo's fault. Everything good that happens on this team is in spite of wojo. That appears to be the collective opinion of scoop.

[bilsu]

I watched Eke play and was greatly impressed with his potential to be a really good player. I have not seen Cain, but I am impressed with his stats and his number 2 ranking in state of Michigan. He may be the athletic type player MU really needs. John sounds like he could also be a very good player. They will all need a year or two to develope into solid players. I am not happy where we are presently at, but Wojo should be given the time to fully develope his team. He also still has Bailey in the pipeline.

[bradley center bat]

C'mon, there was real turmoil in that program then.

MU (and Wojo) has no such excuse.

What does that have to do with road fans chanting after a win. Please.
Plus, I would love back to back Final Fours as turmoil in the program. 

[tower912]

Every bad thing associated with this team is wojo's fault. Everything good that happens on this team is in spite of wojo. That appears to be the collective opinion of scoop.

Didn't think teal was necessary.    Wojo isn't blameless.   Players have to make plays. 

[tower912]

I remember another Marquette team that had less size. They were ranked. Some things are out of Wojos control. But trying to put off any blame from him is like turning a blind eye praying it will work out.

Cubi or HC?   Mo or Markus?   JjJ or DJO?  Lazar or Sam?    JFB or Luke?     
Who played better on ball defense?
Who was tougher?
Who would win a scrimmage?   Why?   
Wojo's failings, IMO, are failing to land a 4 for this team and failing to tailor his defense to his talent.    Is it up to the coach to get upperclassmen to compete on every possession?   Doesn't some of that fall on the player?   Perhaps a Buzz-style bootcamp would have helped this team.   

[jesmu84]

Didn't think teal was necessary.    Wojo isn't blameless.   Players have to make plays.

Didn't think teal was necessary on mine either.

It's just so tiresome (and predictable) to see/read the same things over and over.

[Babybluejeans]

  Cubi or HC?   Mo or Markus?   JjJ or DJO?  Lazar or Sam?    JFB or Luke?     
Who played better on ball defense?
Who was tougher?
Who would win a scrimmage?   Why?   
Wojo's failings, IMO, are failing to land a 4 for this team and failing to tailor his defense to his talent.    Is it up to the coach to get upperclassmen to compete on every possession?   Doesn't some of that fall on the player?   Perhaps a Buzz-style bootcamp would have helped this team.

Wojo isn't the only one at fault for what ails MU, but whether a team is "tough" ultimately comes down to the coach.

[tower912]

I've coached 9 different grade school basketball teams, 2 girls softball teams, 2 girls volleyball teams and 14 different little league baseball teams over the years. None above the 8th grade level.   I coached the same way for all of them.    Some were tough, some weren't.   Usually, they took on the personalities of the best one or two players.    If the best two players played hard, the whole team played hard.   If the best two players were whiners and didn't fight when the chips were down, the team played soft.   

Just this past Saturday, the 4th graders I am coaching through the Y came out flat and got smoked in the first half.   One of the 9 year olds started yelling at half time about playing every possession like it is your last.  I was fighting to keep a straight face.    Then he went out and led his team from a 16-4 halftime deficit to a 24-24 tie.  (no OT as there was another game waiting for the court)   He did it without making a shot.   He got 11 rebounds, 4 tie ups, 4 blocks, and 2 clean steals in 15 minutes of play.   The whole team raised its game and 4 other 9 year olds scored in the second half.    The parents thought the other coach and I were heroes.     

Tough is either in you or it isn't.   

[#UnleashSean]

   Perhaps a Buzz-style bootcamp would have helped this team.

Hey now your getting it.

[#UnleashSean]

I've coached 9 different grade school basketball teams, 2 girls softball teams, 2 girls volleyball teams and 14 different little league baseball teams over the years. None above the 8th grade level.   I coached the same way for all of them.    Some were tough, some weren't.   Usually, they took on the personalities of the best one or two players.    If the best two players played hard, the whole team played hard.   If the best two players were whiners and didn't fight when the chips were down, the team played soft.   

Just this past Saturday, the 4th graders I am coaching through the Y came out flat and got smoked in the first half.   One of the 9 year olds started yelling at half time about playing every possession like it is your last.  I was fighting to keep a straight face.    Then he went out and led his team from a 16-4 halftime deficit to a 24-24 tie.  (no OT as there was another game waiting for the court)   He did it without making a shot.   He got 11 rebounds, 4 tie ups, 4 blocks, and 2 clean steals in 15 minutes of play.   The whole team raised its game and 4 other 9 year olds scored in the second half.    The parents thought the other coach and I were heroes.     

Tough is either in you or it isn't.

That's alot of stats to keep for 4th graders. I don't keep stats for 8th or 9th grade teams I coach.

[tower912]

Other coach's wife is a stat freak.   I never keep them either.   But she emailed them to me around halftime of the Wisconsin game.

[Let's Go Warriors]

  Cubi or HC?   Mo or Markus?   JjJ or DJO?  Lazar or Sam?    JFB or Luke?     
Who played better on ball defense?
Who was tougher?
Who would win a scrimmage?   Why?   
Wojo's failings, IMO, are failing to land a 4 for this team and failing to tailor his defense to his talent.    Is it up to the coach to get upperclassmen to compete on every possession?   Doesn't some of that fall on the player?   Perhaps a Buzz-style bootcamp would have helped this team.

I agree with this.  However, this is a HUGE issue.  This "talent" at almost every position will be here for a while.  If Wojo doesnt adjust how can it ever improve much?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree with this.  However, this is a HUGE issue.  This "talent" at almost every position will be here for a while.  If Wojo doesnt adjust how can it ever improve much?

His talent is young and aren't the ones having the most issues. The main issue is that Luke is too slow footed to be effective in this defense.

[Marcus92]

I don't think the issue is the defensive scheme, or how well it fits the talent. Man-to-man isn't some new, exotic defensive scheme. It's not hard to understand in concept. O'Neill played man-to-man. Crean played man-to-man. Buzz played man-to-man. And we've had plenty of slower big men in the middle before (exhibit A: Chris Otule).

The difference is execution. Good man-to-man defense isn't just about five players defending well individually. It's about five players defending well as a team. We're not doing that right now.

I'm not opposed to strategically using zone as a change of pace, or in response to certain match-ups. But zone defense isn't some kind of magic bullet that transforms a mediocre defensive team into a good one. Marquette simply needs to work to get better.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't think the issue is the defensive scheme, or how well it fits the talent. Man-to-man isn't some new, exotic defensive scheme. It's not hard to understand in concept. O'Neill played man-to-man. Crean played man-to-man. Buzz played man-to-man. And we've had plenty of slower big men in the middle before (exhibit A: Chris Otule).

The difference is execution. Good man-to-man defense isn't just about five players defending well individually. It's about five players defending well as a team. We're not doing that right now.

I'm not opposed to strategically using zone as a change of pace, or in response to certain match-ups. But zone defense isn't some kind of magic bullet that transforms a mediocre defensive team into a good one. Marquette simply needs to work to get better.

I think this is an oversimplification. While we are playing man to man, there are so many different variations of man to man. Wojo is using Duke's patented high pressure man to man. Its goal is to make opponents start their run plays from near the half court line. Can be very effective, especially with the shortened shot clock. If the shot clock goes down again as some predict it will, then it will be very effective. Need to get the right personnel and you're right we need better execution. It's Wojo's responsibility to figure out how to make that happen.

[1SE]

This is just it - you coach the team you have, not the team you want. You have a slow-footed center then you figure out a defensive scheme where that becomes less of a liability.

Wojo has brought in some real talent. But I have yet to see any sustained and convincing evidence that he can 1) fit his schemes (esp. defensively) to his team or 2) make any sort of meaningful in-game adjustments 3) prepare his guys with a mental toughness to play hard and buy in for the full 40  minutes. I have no doubt he'll keep doing a good job filling to cupboard with talent. But I just don't see how more years will lead to an upping of his coaching IQ. The man had 15 years sitting next to one of the greatest to ever coach the game. He's had two and a half seasons at the helm on his own. I don't just see a light bulb clicking at some point that wouldn't have already gone off.

Maybe the solution is to pay top dollar and bring in a veteran XOs assistant. Maybe it's starting from scratch - too many of the Wojo fan club here seem unfamiliar with the sunk costs. But until something changes, I think we're going to be mired with teams that under-perform to their potential. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This has been the question we've been debating all season. Is it better to change your defense every year to match your personnel at the cost of players never truly mastering a defense. Or is it better to go though the growing pains now so you eventually have a roster that has mastered a specific defense over years of practice. Is it better to be JIm Boeheim or Buzz Williams? Buzz was a master at adapting his style to his personnel. Truly elite in that area. We were spoiled. Most coaches have a defensive system and stick with it.

Wojo finally has his offense established. And it's very good. The defense is lagging. I think sticking with the scheme now will pay great dividends in the future. Wojo does need to look at how he's teaching it because it's not translating onto the court yet.

[jesmu84]

This has been the question we've been debating all season. Is it better to change your defense every year to match your personnel at the cost of players never truly mastering a defense. Or is it better to go though the growing pains now so you eventually have a roster that has mastered a specific defense over years of practice. Is it better to be JIm Boeheim or Buzz Williams? Buzz was a master at adapting his style to his personnel. Truly elite in that area. We were spoiled. Most coaches have a defensive system and stick with it.

Wojo finally has his offense established. And it's very good. The defense is lagging. I think sticking with the scheme now will pay great dividends in the future. Wojo does need to look at how he's teaching it because it's not translating onto the court yet.

Agree with this. If, as reported, he's trying to build a long-term culture and system, now that he's got 2 of his classes, start teaching it now. Add players that fit your system each year. Deal with what you can this year and next. We'll be fine long-term that way.

More than one way to skin a cat. I'll take a longer investment/build if it means better sustained payoff in the end.

[Lennys Tap]

All this talk about "young talent". Any evidence that the "young talent" (Howard, Hauser, Cheatham, Carter and Heldt) will "get" whatever defensive scheme (assuming their is one) Wojo is teaching better than the "old talent" (Fischer, JJJ, Reinhardt, Rowsey and Du Wilson) do? And if it's so complex that it takes several years to grasp why do we recruit so many one year players?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

All this talk about "young talent". Any evidence that the "young talent" (Howard, Hauser, Cheatham, Carter and Heldt) will "get" whatever defensive scheme (assuming their is one) Wojo is teaching better than the "old talent" (Fischer, JJJ, Reinhardt, Rowsey and Du Wilson) do? And if it's so complex that it takes several years to grasp why do we recruit so many one year players?

I don't understand this either.  Duke has many one-and-dones that are able to grasp the scheme...so learning the principles of the defense in and of itself cannot be that hard (nor is most defenses that are out there). 

So the root cause has to be
1. Players are not athletic enough to execute the scheme (will that improve?)
2. Instruction on proper way to play defense is not being executed (hard for fans to know)
3. Instruction on proper way to play defense is not being effectively conveyed (hard for fans to know)
4. System is no good (likely not the issue in and of itself)

[jesmu84]

I don't understand this either.  Duke has many one-and-dones that are able to grasp the scheme...so learning the principles of the defense in and of itself cannot be that hard (nor is most defenses that are out there). 

So the root cause has to be
1. Players are not athletic enough to execute the scheme (will that improve?)
2. Instruction on proper way to play defense is not being executed (hard for fans to know)
3. Instruction on proper way to play defense is not being effectively conveyed (hard for fans to know)
4. System is no good (likely not the issue in and of itself)

I think, based on what some other smarter bball IQ posters have stated, Luke is definitely not athletic enough to fulfill his role. I would guess some of the freshmen, sophomores also need to improve their athleticism through workouts/training. That's my interpretation, anyway.

The bigs Wojo has recruited going forward appear to be more athletic bigs than someone like Luke.

[Lennys Tap]

The bigs Wojo has recruited going forward appear to be more athletic bigs than someone like Luke.

Matt Heldt? Or guys still in high school? Does that mean we won't see the real Wojo D until Theo John's junior year? 2019-20 is a bit long to wait.

[RJax55]

I don't understand this either.  Duke has many one-and-dones that are able to grasp the scheme...so learning the principles of the defense in and of itself cannot be that hard (nor is most defenses that are out there). 

So the root cause has to be
1. Players are not athletic enough to execute the scheme (will that improve?)
2. Instruction on proper way to play defense is not being executed (hard for fans to know)
3. Instruction on proper way to play defense is not being effectively conveyed (hard for fans to know)
4. System is no good (likely not the issue in and of itself)

It is a completely silly theory. I can't wait for the '18-'19 season, when we can see the real Wojo defense!

[MerrittsMustache]

This has been the question we've been debating all season. Is it better to change your defense every year to match your personnel at the cost of players never truly mastering a defense. Or is it better to go though the growing pains now so you eventually have a roster that has mastered a specific defense over years of practice. Is it better to be JIm Boeheim or Buzz Williams? Buzz was a master at adapting his style to his personnel. Truly elite in that area. We were spoiled. Most coaches have a defensive system and stick with it.

Wojo finally has his offense established. And it's very good. The defense is lagging. I think sticking with the scheme now will pay great dividends in the future. Wojo does need to look at how he's teaching it because it's not translating onto the court yet.

Let's not get carried away. We're talking about a man-to-man defensive system. This isn't Al Saunders' 700-page NFL playbook. It should absolutely NOT take multiple seasons for players to master the defensive philosophies. By game 10 of the season, players should have a solid grasp on things and we shouldn't be seeing the constant breakdowns game after game, especially considering most of these guys were in this system last season. Concepts like help side D, switching off-ball screens, etc are taught at the middle school level, if not sooner.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

All this talk about "young talent". Any evidence that the "young talent" (Howard, Hauser, Cheatham, Carter and Heldt) will "get" whatever defensive scheme (assuming their is one) Wojo is teaching better than the "old talent" (Fischer, JJJ, Reinhardt, Rowsey and Du Wilson) do? And if it's so complex that it takes several years to grasp why do we recruit so many one year players?

This is the first year we're using Wojos defense. He caved the last two years and played zone for most of the season.

Not saying it takes several years to grasp. The team is behind on defense this year, no question. Wojo not doing well in this regard. But like anything else in life, the more you do something the better you get. If you switch defenses every year you won't be as good at a specific defense.

To be clear, this is a comment on those saying we should switch defensive schemes. Not an excuse for why the defense is bad.