The Young Pups

[wadesworld]

Obvious to all that Traci is vastly better defensively than Markus. And you also think Traci has the edge offensively? If true, only one explanation why they're essentially splitting time - Wojo's a total idiot. I don't think so.

Not splitting time in games where we aren't up by 40 in the first half. Again, there's no doubt Markus can light up the likes of Western Carolina and Howard. But he's put up doughnuts on the scoreboard in 2/3 of or games against even remotely quality opponents and has more fouls than points in those 3 games.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Actually, Howard has a better defensive rating than Carter. But Carter has a better offensive rating than Howard. I was surprised when I ran the numbers.

[wadesworld]

Actually, Howard has a better defensive rating than Carter. But Carter has a better offensive rating than Howard. I was surprised when I ran the numbers.

Does defensive rating take fouls into account? Because Markus fouls at an insanely high clip. Which makes sense given he's a few months removed from high school and the speed of the game certainly isn't the same.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Does defensive rating take fouls into account? Because Markus fouls at an insanely high clip. Which makes sense given he's a few months removed from high school and the speed of the game certainly isn't the same.

Yes.

[Jay Bee]

Does defensive rating take fouls into account? Because Markus fouls at an insanely high clip. Which makes sense given he's a few months removed from high school and the speed of the game certainly isn't the same.

Markus doesn't foul at a high clip; Traci gets called more often

Traci's turnover rate is higher than Markus'

The upside comp b/w the two isn't even close

Markus 2 NBA

[MU82]

We have 2 point guards. Markus and Traci. IMO Marcus is right now a much better offensive player than Traci. He's also better (offensively) than past PGs DW, Junior and DJ. Travis graduated in 2005. That's a pretty long time.

Um ... Dawson! Hello!

[Bocephys]

Um ... Dawson! Hello!

[GoldenDieners32]

Markus doesn't foul at a high clip; Traci gets called more often

Traci's turnover rate is higher than Markus'

The upside comp b/w the two isn't even close

Markus 2 NBA

I feel like Markus has drawn more fouls. He's took lots of charges already this season

[Marcus92]

Really curious to see how Wojo and the coaching staff manage H&H's minutes.

They're gonna hit a wall sometime around late January/early February as they're not used to as many high-intensity minutes, games, travel, etc.

I wouldn't be concerned about this. Both traveled and played extensively in high school. Markus competed on the 2015 USA U16 national team that won gold in Argentina. Sam played in tournaments across the country as part of AAU ball. They're both ready-for-primetime players.

[HoopsterBC]

Not splitting time in games where we aren't up by 40 in the first half. Again, there's no doubt Markus can light up the likes of Western Carolina and Howard. But he's put up doughnuts on the scoreboard in 2/3 of or games against even remotely quality opponents and has more fouls than points in those 3 games.

Wadesworld, I will have to agree that you have to score or play better against better teams.  I was at the Michigan game in NY, he was overmatched, period.  He lacks
a little quickness right now, but that will improve once he gets a little older.  Shooting wise as good as anybody that MU has had, close to Diener.  It would be nice if
he had a little growth spurt left.  Become more of a 2 guard.  Lets face it, if he was in high school were he belongs age wise, he would be a 5* player this year.  I believe
he will be at MU for the full four years,  should be the go to star his junior and senior year.  A player I believe you can build a program around.  They lose Duane and Rowsey after next year,  lets see if he can help get his running partner.

[wadesworld]

Wadesworld, I will have to agree that you have to score or play better against better teams.  I was at the Michigan game in NY, he was overmatched, period.  He lacks
a little quickness right now, but that will improve once he gets a little older.  Shooting wise as good as anybody that MU has had, close to Diener.  It would be nice if
he had a little growth spurt left.  Become more of a 2 guard.  Lets face it, if he was in high school were he belongs age wise, he would be a 5* player this year.  I believe
he will be at MU for the full four years,  should be the go to star his junior and senior year.  A player I believe you can build a program around.  They lose Duane and Rowsey after next year,  lets see if he can help get his running partner.

+1

[Jay Bee]

Wadesworld, I will have to agree that you have to score or play better against better teams.  I was at the Michigan game in NY, he was overmatched

Markus v Mich: 21 min, Ortg of 119, 4dr
Traci v Mich: 19 min, 0% eFG, 3 to's, Ortg of 12.

[wadesworld]

Markus v Mich: 21 min, Ortg of 119, 4dr
Traci v Mich: 19 min, 0% eFG, 3 to's, Ortg of 12.

What about Vandy and Pitt?

[4everwarriors]

I'm a big Traci fan. I'll be ecstatic if MH can elevate his on ball D against a quality PG. But the boy (17) can shoot the rock.

Guessin' ya grew up on da south side of MKE in da 60's, ai na?

[Lennys Tap]

Markus v Mich: 21 min, Ortg of 119, 4dr
Traci v Mich: 19 min, 0% eFG, 3 to's, Ortg of 12.

Lol. You can't make this sh#t up! What Michigan game were BC and Wades watching?

[wadesworld]

Lol. You can't make this sh#t up! What Michigan game were BC and Wades watching?

Did anybody argue Traci was better against Michigan?  I can't speak for BC, but I certainly didn't.  If we were discussing just a single game in the season then sure, Markus was better against Michigan.  No argument there.  Seems silly to look at a single game and conclude one is better than the other but hey, to each their own.

Again, how about the Vandy and Pitt games?  Guess we'll just "make that sh#t up," and ignore the season long stats to just look at a one game sample size.  Always a sound strategy there...

[PaintTouches]

As the lead Bandwagoner on the Traci Train, I think the discussion of best offensive player is pretty clearly Howard, even with the struggles he's had, because he is a natural shooter and scorer. However, Traci is still a better true-PG because he creates more open shots for others, which I think this team needs, at times, more than a scorer right now.

Scoring comes naturally for MH, deferring comes naturally for TC.

There's no need to pit them against each other though. The OP was about the excitement at having two young players looking ready to play this early on, which everyone agrees on. I think we'll be seeing a bit more or Traci at the 1 and Howard at the 2 this season and a LOT more next season.

Traci, Markus, Haanif, Sam, (Heldt/John). Now that is exciting.   

[Lennys Tap]

Did anybody argue Traci was better against Michigan?  I can't speak for BC, but I certainly didn't. 

BC said Markus (Ortg 113 in 21 minutes) looked "overmatched" against Michigan. You gave his post a +1.

Fact is, Markus was solid against Michigan. It was Traci who appeared "overmatched".

[bilsu]

Traci is a true point guard and therefore the better point guard.
Howard is a combo guard. Actually he is a shooting guard in a point guards body. Howard is the better overall player.
Wojo's offense does not depend on having a point guard, since he wants all of his guards to be able to initiate the offense.

[wadesworld]

BC said Markus (Ortg 113 in 21 minutes) looked "overmatched" against Michigan. You gave his post a +1.

Fact is, Markus was solid against Michigan. It was Traci who appeared "overmatched".

I gave him a +1 for his entire post, not for 4 words in a paragraph long post.  He's right, Howard should be a high school senior right now and if he was he'd be a 5 star recruit.  Right now he's better off the ball and he'll be here for 4 years and be a complete stud his junior and senior years.  There was absolutely nothing in his post that said "Markus played worse than Traci in the Michigan game," or anything close to it.  It didn't even mention Traci at all.

There is absolutely no denying Markus has a much, much higher ceiling than any MU point guard since James.  I am not denying that in the least bit.  I'm saying that as of right now, against the 3 high majors we have played, Traci overall has played better than Markus has.  Yes, Markus was better than Traci in the Michigan game, but Traci was much, much, much, much, much better in the Vandy game and simply better in the Pitt game.

My only point is, let's let the kid go off once or twice more against someone not named Western Carolina before we crown him the "best offensive PG MU has had since Travis Diener."  I expect him to be better than any PG since James by the time he is actually our best PG option.  But as of right now he is not that yet.

I'll let you take it from here because there's only so many different ways I can say the same thing, and I'm running out of them.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What about Vandy and Pitt?

Vandy:
Carter- 161.9 O-Rating, 100.99 D-Rating
Howard- 45.47 O-Rating, 101.28 D-Rating

Pitt:
Carter- 98.13 O-Rating, 98.87 D-Rarting
Howard- 0.00 O-Rating, 101.71 D-Rating

[wadesworld]

Vandy:
Carter- 161.9 O-Rating, 100.99 D-Rating
Howard- 45.47 O-Rating, 101.28 D-Rating

Pitt:
Carter- 98.13 O-Rating, 98.87 D-Rarting
Howard- 0.00 O-Rating, 101.71 D-Rating

Thanks.

[Marcus92]

The competition between them has already made Traci and Markus better. These guys play against each other every day. They're both high major Division I talents. I like what I've seen so far. But I expect to see them improve throughout the season.

[Loose Cannon]

.

Scoring comes naturally for MH, deferring comes naturally for TC.

There's no need to pit them against each other though. The OP was about the excitement at having two young players looking ready to play this early on, which everyone agrees on. I think we'll be seeing a bit more or Traci at the 1 and Howard at the 2 this season and a LOT more next season.

Traci, Markus, Haanif, Sam, (Heldt/John). Now that is exciting.   

Absolutely agree.

[HoopsterBC]

I gave him a +1 for his entire post, not for 4 words in a paragraph long post.  He's right, Howard should be a high school senior right now and if he was he'd be a 5 star recruit.  Right now he's better off the ball and he'll be here for 4 years and be a complete stud his junior and senior years.  There was absolutely nothing in his post that said "Markus played worse than Traci in the Michigan game," or anything close to it.  It didn't even mention Traci at all.

There is absolutely no denying Markus has a much, much higher ceiling than any MU point guard since James.  I am not denying that in the least bit.  I'm saying that as of right now, against the 3 high majors we have played, Traci overall has played better than Markus has.  Yes, Markus was better than Traci in the Michigan game, but Traci was much, much, much, much, much better in the Vandy game and simply better in the Pitt game.

My only point is, let's let the kid go off once or twice more against someone not named Western Carolina before we crown him the "best offensive PG MU has had since Travis Diener."  I expect him to be better than any PG since James by the time he is actually our best PG option.  But as of right now he is not that yet.

I'll let you take it from here because there's only so many different ways I can say the same thing, and I'm running out of them.

+1,  One point I will make is that when Markus shoots the ball, I have confidence he will make it, with Traci, not yet.  Compared to last year Traci has really played
better.  Quicker and better defender on ball then Markus, this is where age does matter.  I agree that Markus is more of a combo guard,  Traci a true point guard.  MU
problem is playing them both at the same time, no height.