Floors and Ceilings

[MarquetteDano]

Hayward, Butler, Buycks and DJO.......that team shot over 40% from 3. Acker was an excellent defender on the perimeter, shot about 50% from 3 and almost never turned it over as a senior. Cooby made open 3s at a high level and guarded at a high level.

The current team may be deeper but doesn't have near the talent at the top. Both teams were short but that team was much quicker and more athletic.

When they needed a basket in a close game they could go to Lazar or Jimmy......this team? JJ? HC?

Nearly every poster hated Buycks as a Junior. Acker wasnt as good as defender as you make it out. The amount of times he was posted up,.shot over, or tea bagged (remember that Dayton guard) in transition was quite a lot.

I will definitely give that this team has no Hayward but he played CENTER and got abused defensively all year long.

This team has plenty of individual horses to make the dance. Now whether it plays well enough as a team is another question.

[MuMark]

That team was 56 th in the country in defensive efficiency according to Pomeroy.

They were 20th in offensive efficiency.

They were better then this years group......and more experienced. They were small but never turned it over. (7th best in the country).

And they shot the lights out from 3 which makes up for a lot of deficiencies .

They were the rare midget team that made it work.

Comparing a team with Hayward as a senior and Butler as junior leading the way vs Luke and JJ leading this squad is just silly.

[MarquetteDano]

That team was 56 th in the country in defensive efficiency according to Pomeroy.

They were 20th in offensive efficiency.

They were better then this years group......and more experienced. They were small but never turned it over. (7th best in the country).

And they shot the lights out from 3 which makes up for a lot of deficiencies .

They were the rare midget team that made it work.

Comparing a team with Hayward as a senior and Butler as junior leading the way vs Luke and JJ leading this squad is just silly.

So what I see above is a comparison of the TEAMS. Not the horses.  If the Horses = Teams why do we need coaches other than recruiting?

As of right now, the midget team IS WAY better than this team. However my point was that team horses were not markedly better than this year's. We have enough talent on THIS team to make the dance or at least be on the bubble.

[brewcity77]

I loved the 2010 midgets team, but it's funny how people remember them. There were maybe 2 posters that thought Buycks had a remote NBA chance, and no one actually saw him as a sure bet. DJO was promising but erratic, he could put 20 on you in a half and vanish in the second. Butler blossomed that year but his lockdown defense didn't emerge until the next year. And both Acker and Cooby were nearly cut causalities in the offseason.

Hayward was great, but seen as a fringe NBA player, similar to how Luke is on some draft lists. Going into this season, most people rated Cheatham more highly than Butler that year. DJO, Buycks, Acker, and Cooby against Reinhardt, Rowsey, Duane, Howard, and Carter? Seems like at least a wash. And don't get me started comparing Mbao and Heldt.

At this time that year, we were blowing a 17-point second half lead to Florida State. It wasn't all seashells and balloons and while we earned a 6, most of us felt like we were still on the bubble but in on Selection Sunday.

If the Midgets taught us anything, it's that you can have a rocky start to both non-conference and regular season play and still make a run at it. It's early, let's not panic just yet.

[MUfan12]

It wasn't all seashells and balloons and while we earned a 6, most of us felt like we were still on the bubble but in on Selection Sunday.

After winning three in a row on the road and trouncing Louisville at home for their 11th league win, pretty much everyone thought an at-large bid was secured.

[GoldenDieners32]

I loved the 2010 midgets team, but it's funny how people remember them. There were maybe 2 posters that thought Buycks had a remote NBA chance, and no one actually saw him as a sure bet. DJO was promising but erratic, he could put 20 on you in a half and vanish in the second. Butler blossomed that year but his lockdown defense didn't emerge until the next year. And both Acker and Cooby were nearly cut causalities in the offseason.

Hayward was great, but seen as a fringe NBA player, similar to how Luke is on some draft lists. Going into this season, most people rated Cheatham more highly than Butler that year. DJO, Buycks, Acker, and Cooby against Reinhardt, Rowsey, Duane, Howard, and Carter? Seems like at least a wash. And don't get me started comparing Mbao and Heldt.

At this time that year, we were blowing a 17-point second half lead to Florida State. It wasn't all seashells and balloons and while we earned a 6, most of us felt like we were still on the bubble but in on Selection Sunday.

If the Midgets taught us anything, it's that you can have a rocky start to both non-conference and regular season play and still make a run at it. It's early, let's not panic just yet.

We still have 30 games left and a couple cupcakes coming up lets worry about those and get the wins

[brewcity77]

After winning three in a row on the road and trouncing Louisville at home for their 11th league win, pretty much everyone thought an at-large bid was secured.

Here's a poll going into the Big East Tournament:

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=19068.0

Most had MU as a 9-11 seed, which I'd say is on the bubble but in.

[ATWizJr]

Ok now that we all know the end result can we enjoy the rest of the season before organizing the mass suicide?

I prefer the cherry flavored Kool aid. Maybe a poll?

doubt you're going to enjoy it, but the kool aid's on me!

[mu03eng]

Here's where my concern lies and why I think this team probably doesn't pan out the same way the 2010 team does.....coaching.

This team is more talented and more suited to the current style of basketball being played than the 2010 team was. I also think this team is just as hardnosed or tough as that team (super overused cliche IMO). However, we are seeing the same mistakes out of the coaching staff in year 3 that we saw in the first two years. I'm losing faith that the staff can learn to coach which is what will potentially sink the team.

Look at the 2nd half of the Pitt game for instance, here is a summary of the plays when MU had an 8 point lead and then let Michael Young become a one man wrecking crew:
-Fischer, Carter, JjJ, Duane, Hauser all on the floor at the 13:46 mark with MU up 56-47
-Hauser fouls Young and he hits both FTs (56-49)
-JjJ blocked on lay up - 13:34
-Pitt miss
-Hauser 3 (59-49) - 13:17
-Young jumper - 12:56
-Carter TO - 12:29
-Young jumper - 12:03 (59-53)
-Media TO
-JjJ blocked on lay up - 11:43
-Young jumper - 11:23 (59-55)
-Wilson blocked on lay up - 11:08
-Young lay up - 10:57 (59-57)
-Fischer miss - 10:36
-Young lay up - 10:31 (59-59)
-Marquette TO - 10:28

In that 4 minute segment when the lead slipped away essentially for good (would bounce between one possession leads in both directions the rest of the way), only one sub was made (Rowsey for Carter) they played man to man with Fischer guarding Young and Pitt played a two man game with their PG and Young generating everything off of pick and roll. In fact if you look at the game tape, Pitt ran the exact same play 3 times in a row!

In that 4 minute span the coaching staff responded in almost now way on either end but especially on the defensive end. Why not go to 2-3 for a possession or two to break their momentum (poor 3pt shooting from Pitt makes it even more attractive)? Or why not switch Hauser on to Young for a possession or two? Or why not have Fischer sag on the Pick and Roll and risk a Young 3 but guard the driving lane?

These are all coaching mistakes I expect out of a first year coach, but Wojo has 15 years at Coach K's knee and another 3 running his own program....these should not be happening still. I don't care how much talent, guts, karma, or shooting skill we have....if the coaching staff can't put the players in a position to succeed we won't.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Addressed this in another thread. You are saying Wojo should have made major defensive adjustments to stop Young. When did you want this to happen? You can't significantly change the defense when the ball is live. From the 12 minute media timeout, it only took Young 1.5 minutes to score 10 points. At which point wojo took a timeout. Wojo couldn't have changed the defense, he had no opportunity. You can argue that he should have taken a timeout sooner, and I would agree. But given that he just had the media timeout, I can understand why he didn't.

After the wojo timeout, Luke changed how he was guarding young. He didn't score a single 2 pt FG the rest of the game. Wojo adjusted and it shut young down.

The problem wasn't wojo being unable to adjust. It was Luke playing poor defense and Young getting hot in an unbelievably short time period of fast possessions. Also, the fact that our players decided to stop running the offense and played hero ball, giving the ball right back to young.

That's not to say there weren't issues in Wojos end. Timeout management and the initial defensive strategy are on him. But young had a very erratic first half. There was no reason to change the defense until after that 1.5 minute run.

Short of call a timeout earlier, not sure what people wanted Wojo to do.

[mu03eng]

Addressed this in another thread. You are saying Wojo should have made major defensive adjustments to stop Young. When did you want this to happen? You can't significantly change the defense when the ball is live. From the 12 minute media timeout, it only took Young 1.5 minutes to score 10 points. At which point wojo took a timeout. Wojo couldn't have changed the defense, he had no opportunity. You can argue that he should have taken a timeout sooner, and I would agree. But given that he just had the media timeout, I can understand why he didn't.

After the wojo timeout, Luke changed how he was guarding young. He didn't score a single 2 pt FG the rest of the game. Wojo adjusted and it shut young down.

The problem wasn't wojo being unable to adjust. It was Luke playing poor defense and Young getting hot in an unbelievably short time period of fast possessions. Also, the fact that our players decided to stop running the offense and played hero ball, giving the ball right back to young.

That's not to say there weren't issues in Wojos end. Timeout management and the initial defensive strategy are on him. But young had a very erratic first half. There was no reason to change the defense until after that 1.5 minute run.

Short of call a timeout earlier, not sure what people wanted Wojo to do.

TO management was a secondary issue. You can absolute change defense possession to possession. Change from man to zone, or change the man assignments. Are you saying that Wojo can't tell Luke and Sam to switch assignments somewhere in those 7 possessions?

[Lennys Tap]

Here's a poll going into the Big East Tournament:

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=19068.0

Most had MU as a 9-11 seed, which I'd say is on the bubble but in.

81% in the poll had us a #10 or higher - I don't think you're on the bubble if 10-14 teams who will get in are behind you. Making the Big East tournament semi finals removed what little doubt there was.

[MerrittsMustache]

TO management was a secondary issue. You can absolute change defense possession to possession. Change from man to zone, or change the man assignments. Are you saying that Wojo can't tell Luke and Sam to switch assignments somewhere in those 7 possessions?

Exactly. If a team doesn't have the ability to switch defenses and/or defensive assignments on the fly, that team is unprepared.

To me, the issue wasn't Luke's poor man D, the lack of a timeout or the so-called "hero ball" on the offensive end. It was that the opposition was on a run and little seemed to be done on MU's end to change things up. Call a set play, go zone, alter the match-ups, etc. It doesn't matter that Young only made one FG the rest of the way, his one-man run prior to the timeout ended up being the difference.

[GoldenDieners32]

TC has to step up and play like how he did last year. And wojo needs to give minutes to duane

[brewcity77]

81% in the poll had us a #10 or higher - I don't think you're on the bubble if 10-14 teams who will get in are behind you. Making the Big East tournament semi finals removed what little doubt there was.

Sure, and 55% had us a #10 or lower. I specifically said "on the bubble but in." I stand by that. We figured we were in, but didn't know where, and very few thought we'd be a 6-seed. Hell...the whole "Team Bubble Watch" thing started with THAT team. We were on the bubble all year long and didn't secure our bid until the last few games.

Bottom line, anyone saying they had complete confidence in that team because of all the obvious, blatant talent with 4 future NBA players and 1 international player is completely full of BS, especially at this time of that season. Buycks and DJO didn't look like future NBA players. Hayward looked like a fringe player (which he was) and Jimmy was just growing into his new role.

Who knows, maybe Howard, Fischer, and Cheatham are all future NBA draft picks and Rowsey will develop into a NBA level backup point after 2 years in France. Okay...there's no future foreign international, but that doesn't mean Duane, JJ, and Hauser aren't all better than Cooby was.

I loved that team, but there's a lot of revisionist history with that team. Before the season, most people seemed to have us in the 16-19 win range.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15797.msg154526#msg154526

[fjm]

Dear God of all that is Mighty for the Marquette university faithful... please let it be Tuesday already. I can't take this discussion anymore.

(I knoooow I should just stop reading it, but I would miss y'all so much)

[mu03eng]

One thing I didn't add to my TL;DR post was the end of game situations. Off of a time out Wojo apparently drew up a play that involved the shortest player on the team trying to lay the ball up amongst the trees. I'm not going to get on Hauser about his shot, but the end of game situations continue to be baffling, at some point that has to get better or we will continue to lose the 50-50 games.

Coaching matters, even in 2016

[Bocephys]

One thing I didn't add to my TL;DR post was the end of game situations. Off of a time out Wojo apparently drew up a play that involved the shortest player on the team trying to lay the ball up amongst the trees. I'm not going to get on Hauser about his shot, but the end of game situations continue to be baffling, at some point that has to get better or we will continue to lose the 50-50 games.

Coaching matters, even in 2016

I took that as Rowsey going rogue because it was so incomprehensible at the time.  Where's Haanif or JJJ if we want to drive?

[wadesworld]

One thing I didn't add to my TL;DR post was the end of game situations. Off of a time out Wojo apparently drew up a play that involved the shortest player on the team trying to lay the ball up amongst the trees. I'm not going to get on Hauser about his shot, but the end of game situations continue to be baffling, at some point that has to get better or we will continue to lose the 50-50 games.

Coaching matters, even in 2016

Rowsey has made a living at the line throughout his college career and continued to do so against Pitt.  he had already shot 8 free throws to that point in the game and continually got his defender in the air.  On top of that, he finished at least 2 drives with layups at the rim, and bounced a nice pass off to Heldt for an and 1 on a third drive.  When you're down 1 and in the double bonus down the stretch, having a guy who gets to the line, has finished at he rim, and has created for a teammate at the rim going to the rim is absolutely the right play call, especially when that guy is a threat to hit a three so you have a defender aware of that as Rowsey uses the perimeter screen.  There was nothing wrong with that play call.  Props to Pitt for defending it well.

[mu03eng]

I took that as Rowsey going rogue because it was so incomprehensible at the time.  Where's Haanif or JJJ if we want to drive?

So Wojo drew up a play that went rogue in the first 12 seconds and required to Rowsey to attack the trees with 11 seconds left on the clock and down 1? I'm not sure if my thought or yours is more damning of Wojo.

[mu03eng]

Rowsey has made a living at the line throughout his college career and continued to do so against Pitt.  he had already shot 8 free throws to that point in the game and continually got his defender in the air.  On top of that, he finished at least 2 drives with layups at the rim, and bounced a nice pass off to Heldt for an and 1 on a third drive.  When you're down 1 and in the double bonus down the stretch, having a guy who gets to the line, has finished at he rim, and has created for a teammate at the rim going to the rim is absolutely the right play call, especially when that guy is a threat to hit a three so you have a defender aware of that as Rowsey uses the perimeter screen.  There was nothing wrong with that play call.  Props to Pitt for defending it well.

Unfortunately I don't have the video highlight or know where to grab it, but if you go back and re-watch that play none of what you are describing was possible. At best there was a drive and kick option.

Also, all of his FTs came on jump shot pump fakes, not going to the hoop. He had his head down going to the hoop the whole way so they "draw a foul" strategy wasn't there at all.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TO management was a secondary issue. You can absolute change defense possession to possession. Change from man to zone, or change the man assignments. Are you saying that Wojo can't tell Luke and Sam to switch assignments somewhere in those 7 possessions?

No. They didn't have a chance to change the defense. You never change the defense when your opponent rebounds the ball and pushes it up the court. You change the defense either during a stoppage, or when you score and your opponent slowly brings the ball up. Pitt scored 8 points in a period of about 75 seconds, all of them off ill advised drives (and 1 ill advised Luke post up) by Marquette. These weren't slow methodical half court plays. They were quick hits where our defense barely had time to get back and set. To try and switch the defense in the middle of that would have been terrible coaching.

Hero ball and poor transition defense is what killed us during that run.

[MerrittsMustache]

Rowsey has made a living at the line throughout his college career and continued to do so against Pitt.  he had already shot 8 free throws to that point in the game and continually got his defender in the air.  On top of that, he finished at least 2 drives with layups at the rim, and bounced a nice pass off to Heldt for an and 1 on a third drive.  When you're down 1 and in the double bonus down the stretch, having a guy who gets to the line, has finished at he rim, and has created for a teammate at the rim going to the rim is absolutely the right play call, especially when that guy is a threat to hit a three so you have a defender aware of that as Rowsey uses the perimeter screen.  There was nothing wrong with that play call.  Props to Pitt for defending it well.

Yes, he did have 2 lay-ups and an assist in the first half. Late in the second half, he had a missed lay-up and a turnover while trying to drive (with a forced 3 attempt sandwiched in there as well). Rowsey had a nice game but he is not the guy to give the ball to with the game on the line.

It's inexcusable that with two chances to take the lead/win the game, only Rowsey and Hauser touched the ball.

[MerrittsMustache]

No. They didn't have a chance to change the defense. You never change the defense when your opponent rebounds the ball and pushes it up the court. You change the defense either during a stoppage, or when you score and your opponent slowly brings the ball up. Pitt scored 8 points in a period of about 75 seconds, all of them off ill advised drives (and 1 ill advised Luke post up) by Marquette. These weren't slow methodical half court plays. They were quick hits where our defense barely had time to get back and set. To try and switch the defense in the middle of that would have been terrible coaching.

Hero ball and poor transition defense is what killed us during that run.

It would be very easy to tell two players to switch guys defensively while they're coming back on offense and right in front of the MU bench.

Isn't part of the coach's job to prevent "hero ball" in those types of situations? Have them slow it down, run a set play, etc.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

One thing I didn't add to my TL;DR post was the end of game situations. Off of a time out Wojo apparently drew up a play that involved the shortest player on the team trying to lay the ball up amongst the trees. I'm not going to get on Hauser about his shot, but the end of game situations continue to be baffling, at some point that has to get better or we will continue to lose the 50-50 games.

Coaching matters, even in 2016

Definitely a fair argument. I don't get as bent out of shape about end of game play calling. Rowsey had the hot hand and had drawn three fouls already. Him driving was probably not what the other team would expect. If it works, he's a genius for doing the unexpected. If it fails he's an idiot. He missed the call on that one.

Everyone thinks Pete Carroll is an idiot for throwing instead of handing off to Lynch. But if Wilson had made the throw, he would have been praised for doing the unexpected. Brad Stevens got mad praise for drawing up a play for Alex Barlow, a former walk on (this was before he was good) that won the game against Indiana at the last second. If Barlow had missed, every would have skewered Stevens. History is determined by the victor.