Henry Summer League

[Marcus92]

Another detailed story on Henry.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/07/07/detroit-pistons-henry-ellenson-nba-summer-league/86835910/

This is a great piece. From Stan Van Gundy:

"It's one thing to get the shot off. It's another thing to knock it down on a consistent basis. We need some tweaks, nothing major, but we need some tweaks to his shooting mechanics and I think he can get there."

And associate head coach Bob Beyer:

"We have to get his balance really square and he has to finish square to the rim. He twists a little bit, with his body and with his hand. I think that's an easy thing that we can tweak, and once he gets that down, I think he has the ability to be a consistent three-point shooter, especially at that position."

I certainly hope Henry can address the issue with his shooting form. Identifying what he needs to work on is the first step. Now it's up to him to put in the work.

[GB Warrior]

DET really is one of the best places for him. SVG is a good coach, and the offensive flow will be ideal for Henry, what with Drummond inside. In theory, if Henry can develop a consistent outside shot, they complement each other very well. Henry won't be expected to contribute substantially right away, and can just focus on his game.

[tower912]

So, Henry needs to get stronger and shoot better.  Which we all pretty much knew.


Watch Oscar Robertson YouTube clips sometime.  Witness the size of the defenders, the lack of help defense, and the lack of a left hand.   I checked the clips out after he started criticizing Curry.  He would be average in today's NBA.  55 years ago, he was a revelation, the first of his kind, a guidepost for others to try to emulate.  But so many have that he would now be ordinary.

[Marcus92]

So, Henry needs to get stronger and shoot better. Which we all pretty much knew.

I thought the quote about his release mechanics was news. Van Gundy said more about Henry's shooting in one quote than Wojo did in an entire season. Most of the discussion this past year was about Henry's shot selection — not whether he fully squares up for his shot.

[brandx]

Made me laugh ... but it's also so true.

But hey, Russell only got the easy 22.5 rebounds per game over his career and only won the easy 11 championships!

Also, I laugh every time I hear about somebody who sets a new record for blocked shots -- as if Russell and Chamberlain didn't have more back when they weren't "official" stats.

The nature of the game led to the gaudy rebound stats.

Bob Petit averaged 26 pts. and 16+ rebounds, made the All-Star team every single season and was 1st team All-NBA every season but one. Sadly, he didn't play with teams full of HoFers.

Bill Russell is one of the greatest human beings to ever play in the NBA, but I don't thing he was as great on the court as Wilt and Kareem. They didn't have to change the rules of the game in order to stop Russell; they did to try to slow down Kareem and Wilt.

I'd probably rate Bill as #5 all-time.

[4everwarriors]

I thought the quote about his release mechanics was news. Van Gundy said more about Henry's shooting in one quote than Wojo did in an entire season. Most of the discussion this past year was about Henry's shot selection — not whether he fully squares up for his shot.

So, maybe Wojo knows nothin' 'bout shootin', hey?

[Marcus92]

So, maybe Wojo knows nothin' 'bout shootin', hey?

Or he doesn't believe in talking about it in the media.

Wojo seems to follow the same approach as Coach K, who rarely offers much of substance in his public statements.

[MU82]

The nature of the game led to the gaudy rebound stats.

Bob Petit averaged 26 pts. and 16+ rebounds, made the All-Star team every single season and was 1st team All-NBA every season but one. Sadly, he didn't play with teams full of HoFers.

Bill Russell is one of the greatest human beings to ever play in the NBA, but I don't thing he was as great on the court as Wilt and Kareem. They didn't have to change the rules of the game in order to stop Russell; they did to try to slow down Kareem and Wilt.

I'd probably rate Bill as #5 all-time.

I mostly agree.

I'd definitely rate Russell behind Wilt and Kareem. I'm blanking on another center I'd rate over Russell, though. Maybe Shaq, but probably not. Was Olajuwon a center or a PF?

[Pakuni]

I mostly agree.

I'd definitely rate Russell behind Wilt and Kareem. I'm blanking on another center I'd rate over Russell, though. Maybe Shaq, but probably not. Was Olajuwon a center or a PF?

Center. Even when paired with Sampson in Houston, Hakeem played the pivot.
It's seriously hard to compare NBA players from different generations. The game was way different in 1965 than it was in 1985, and it's way different today than it was even 25-30 years ago.

[MU82]

Center. Even when paired with Sampson in Houston, Hakeem played the pivot.
It's seriously hard to compare NBA players from different generations. The game was way different in 1965 than it was in 1985, and it's way different today than it was even 25-30 years ago.

It's way different, sure, but it's still fun to make comparisons. That's what we dopey sports fans do!

If we're calling Olajuwon a center, I'd rate him right up there with Russell. A far superior offensive player who still could block shots, intimidate and rebound.

I am careful not to dismiss Russell, because aside from his rebound and defensive play, he also was the ultimate leader and warrior. Those intangibles translate well in any era!

[brandx]

I mostly agree.

I'd definitely rate Russell behind Wilt and Kareem. I'm blanking on another center I'd rate over Russell, though. Maybe Shaq, but probably not. Was Olajuwon a center or a PF?

Just to be clear, 82, I was rating Russell as the #5 player of all time - not just the #5 center.

[Badgerhater]

So, Henry needs to get stronger and shoot better.  Which we all pretty much knew.


Watch Oscar Robertson YouTube clips sometime.  Witness the size of the defenders, the lack of help defense, and the lack of a left hand.   I checked the clips out after he started criticizing Curry.  He would be average in today's NBA.  55 years ago, he was a revelation, the first of his kind, a guidepost for others to try to emulate.  But so many have that he would now be ordinary.

A caveat to this point should be that players develop within the training techniques and systems of their day and their game would probably benefit significantly if emerged today rather than 50 years ago.

[tower912]

Agreed.   But at the end of the day, he was the first 6'5 power guard.    Being guarded by guys 6'1 and 170.   Today, he would still be as skilled (possibly more) as strong (possibly more) and guarded by guys his size or larger with far more sophisticated defensive schemes.     He wouldn't the physical outlier today that he was then.     Every team has 6'5-6'8 defensive specialists.   Vander, at 6'4, isn't big enough to play shooting guard in the NBA.    The Big O played at 6'5, 220.    I am not downplaying his skills or his records.    He was a trailblazer/pioneer/first of his kind ballplayer who should be celebrated.     Today, however, he would be unable to dominate physically.    He was an evolutionary landmark. 

[Herman Cain]

Agreed.   But at the end of the day, he was the first 6'5 power guard.    Being guarded by guys 6'1 and 170.   Today, he would still be as skilled (possibly more) as strong (possibly more) and guarded by guys his size or larger with far more sophisticated defensive schemes.     He wouldn't the physical outlier today that he was then.     Every team has 6'5-6'8 defensive specialists.   Vander, at 6'4, isn't big enough to play shooting guard in the NBA.    The Big O played at 6'5, 220.    I am not downplaying his skills or his records.    He was a trailblazer/pioneer/first of his kind ballplayer who should be celebrated.     Today, however, he would be unable to dominate physically.    He was an evolutionary landmark.

The guards in Oscars day were very big and physical.

[brewcity77]

The guards in Oscars day were very big and physical.

From Basketball Reference, they listed Robertson at 6'5", 205. Here are the sizes of the top point guard options for the rest of the league the year Robertson averaged a triple-double:

Fred LaCour, St. Louis, 6'5", 210
Al Bianchi, Syracuse, 6'3", 185
Slick Leonard, Chicago, 6'3", 185
Al Butler, New York, 6'2", 185
Jerry West, Los Angeles, 6'2", 175
Gene Shue, Detroit, 6'2", 170
Larry Costello, Syracuse, 6'1", 186
Bob Cousy, Boston, 6'1", 175
Guy Rodgers, Philadelphia, 6'0", 185
Al Attles, Philadelphia, 6'0", 175

So other than one guy, Robertson had at least 2 inches and 20 pounds on everyone he played against. I'm not at all saying that's the only reason he was successful, but comparably speaking, he was much bigger than the rest of the league.

[wadesworld]

From Basketball Reference, they listed Robertson at 6'5", 205. Here are the sizes of the top point guard options for the rest of the league the year Robertson averaged a triple-double:

Fred LaCour, St. Louis, 6'5", 210
Al Bianchi, Syracuse, 6'3", 185
Slick Leonard, Chicago, 6'3", 185
Al Butler, New York, 6'2", 185
Jerry West, Los Angeles, 6'2", 175
Gene Shue, Detroit, 6'2", 170
Larry Costello, Syracuse, 6'1", 186
Bob Cousy, Boston, 6'1", 175
Guy Rodgers, Philadelphia, 6'0", 185
Al Attles, Philadelphia, 6'0", 175

So other than one guy, Robertson had at least 2 inches and 20 pounds on everyone he played against. I'm not at all saying that's the only reason he was successful, but comparably speaking, he was much bigger than the rest of the league.

Yeah but you could do that for any year.  Not all guys at all positions are the exact same heights and weights.  Some guys are bigger and stronger, some guys are quicker, some guys are better shooters, some guys have a higher motor, etc.

Heck Bucks fans are hoping for a 7' point guard this year.  Compare him to other top PGs in the league and Giannis is a monster.

[esotericmindguy]

So, Henry needs to get stronger and shoot better.  Which we all pretty much knew.


Watch Oscar Robertson YouTube clips sometime.  Witness the size of the defenders, the lack of help defense, and the lack of a left hand.   I checked the clips out after he started criticizing Curry.  He would be average in today's NBA.  55 years ago, he was a revelation, the first of his kind, a guidepost for others to try to emulate.  But so many have that he would now be ordinary.

What's your point? You can't compare generations. Would Wilt be the same 55 years later? My goodness, Deandre Jordan would average 30 and 20 if he went back to 1955, but times change. 90MPH pitchers used to be fast in MLB and Paul Hornung rushed for 3700 yards and is in the HOF.

[GGGG]

The guards in Oscars day were very big and physical.

What???  No they weren't.  WTF are you talking about?

[Pakuni]

What's your point? You can't compare generations. Would Wilt be the same 55 years later? My goodness, Deandre Jordan would average 30 and 20 if he went back to 1955, but times change. 90MPH pitchers used to be fast in MLB and Paul Hornung rushed for 3700 yards and is in the HOF.

Jim Brown was a 6'2", 232 pound running back in an era when the average linebacker went about 225-230.
Another reason why comparing players across eras - while possibly fun for the sake of debate - is an exercise in futility.

[Nukem2]

Jim Brown was a 6'2", 232 pound running back in an era when the average linebacker went about 225-230.
Another reason why comparing players across eras - while possibly fun for the sake of debate - is an exercise in futility.

Not to mention changing rules and many societal changes .  each player is a product of his era.  Judge all by when they played. 

[Herman Cain]

What???  No they weren't.  WTF are you talking about?

Oscar is what we would call today a combo guard or a switchable. To compare him to point guards is simple not reflective of what actually happened on the court.

Oscar would typically be guarded by the other teams best defender. Guys like Walt Frazier, who was 6-4 well over 200 pounds and cat quick or John Havliczek who was a very strong guy large man

There were lots of 6-5 6-6 guards in his days. Guys like the Van Arsdale twins, John Havliczek.

I think it is a fools errand to try and diminish Oscar's accomplishments because he was larger than everyone else.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar , stated :

LeBron is awesome, MJ was awesome—but I think Oscar Robertson would have kicked them both in the behind Absolutely. Oscar was awesome. He had brains. [...] He had all the skills.

He could rebound and box out guys four and six inches taller than him. He was ruggedly built. He had fluid, quickness and just understood the game. No flair, he just got the job done every night. Who's going to average double figures in points, assists and rebounds?

[brandx]

Jim Brown was a 6'2", 232 pound running back in an era when the average linebacker went about 225-230.
Another reason why comparing players across eras - while possibly fun for the sake of debate - is an exercise in futility.

Not necessarily. We can look at league averages for any era and calculate how much better a player was than the league average. Then add standard deviations for the breadth of the talent in different eras (there are more, good/great players now than in the 50s or 60s) and you can get a general analysis across eras.

Comparing physical attributes of players is useless - saying players now are quicker, stronger because of changes in nutrition and training. What is to say that with modern nutrition and training that Oscar wouldn't have been a better player? So we really can't make comparisons on that.

We can only compare across eras on how a player did against those he played against.

[Pakuni]

Not necessarily. We can look at league averages for any era and calculate how much better a player was than the league average. Then add standard deviations for the breadth of the talent in different eras (there are more, good/great players now than in the 50s or 60s) and you can get a general analysis across eras.

That sounds like some awesome bar chatter. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Well Kareem was wrong. Yes Robertson was great, but he's no Jordan, or as much as I dislike him, even Lebron.

Jordan, Lebron, Pippen, all guys who all big, long and really quick would give Robertson fits. Not taking away his triple double year, you can only play against the guys that are there but to say he would kick Jordan in the behind? Please.

[wadesworld]

Well Kareem was wrong. Yes Robertson was great, but he's no Jordan, or as much as I dislike him, even Lebron.

Jordan, Lebron, Pippen, all guys who all big, long and really quick would give Robertson fits. Not taking away his triple double year, you can only play against the guys that are there but to say he would kick Jordan in the behind? Please.

Aren't you like 22 years old?