Grad transfer thread

[MU82]

I'm principled when it comes to the grad transfer rule. If you're going to tell me that the principle is student first, and that's why a year in academic residence is required, then I find nothing compelling to excuse the idea that grad transfers should receive an exception to the year in academic residence.

I think it's simple and straightforward.

I'm a compromiser, Jay Bee.

If you want to focus on "student first," that's cool. Get rid of all rules requiring student/athletes who transfer to take "a year in academic residence." Then there won't be need for any exceptions.

Problem solved!

Wow, man, we should be in Congress together!

[Jay Bee]

Don't confuse my argument with others. I agree with you on grad transfer not getting special treatment over other students

Will again ask.. why the special treatment for grad transfers?

That was the only Q.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Will again ask.. why the special treatment for grad transfers?

No special treatment. No reason for it. We've agreed from the get go on this.

But my question is why the detrimental treatment for non grad transfers?

[Herman Cain]

No special treatment. No reason for it. We've agreed from the get go on this.

But my question is why the detrimental treatment for non grad transfers?

You need the grad transfer rule because of the 6 year rule. It is not a special exemption, it is a thoughtful response to a very bad rule.

[Atticus]

Ill have to do a google search later on to provide proof but I am convinced I either heard on a radio station or read an article that stated over 85% of grad transfers do not complete a two year masters program. Thats pathetic.

I believe the Ivy League prohibits grad transfers. Once again, they have the eight rule in place. There is not a chance in hell the ivy league schools would allow athletes to muck up their enrollment and graduation statistics.

Furthermore, grad school is for professional development. I find it strange that kids jump from undergrad to grad without experiencing their preferred field of work prior to grad school. Yet, every athlete does this (and plenty of non-athletes too). I but the non athletes that jump straight to grad finish at a higher clip than 15% though...

[MU82]

Ill have to do a google search later on to provide proof but I am convinced I either heard on a radio station or read an article that stated over 85% of grad transfers do not complete a two year masters program. Thats pathetic.

I believe the Ivy League prohibits grad transfers. Once again, they have the eight rule in place. There is not a chance in hell the ivy league schools would allow athletes to muck up their enrollment and graduation statistics.

Furthermore, grad school is for professional development. I find it strange that kids jump from undergrad to grad without experiencing their preferred field of work prior to grad school. Yet, every athlete does this (and plenty of non-athletes too). I but the non athletes that jump straight to grad finish at a higher clip than 15% though...

Absolutely ... let's hold every school to every standard required by the Ivies.

You used to like college basketball, right? It used to be a heck of a game. Too bad hardly anybody can play it any more because hardly anybody can qualify.

It was fun while it lasted, though!

[forgetful]

Will again ask.. why the special treatment for grad transfers?

That was the only Q.

Because they've already graduated.  Grad transfers is a misnomer.  They've graduated.  They are not transferring.

No special treatment it is apples and oranges. The goal of college is to graduate and advance towards further career development. 

I'll say it again.  Your statements in this thread demonstrate a complete lack of comprehension of academia, athletics and what each requires as far as demands and obligations.

p.s.  I was a division 1 athlete until an injury took me out.

[Jay Bee]

Because they've already graduated.  Grad transfers is a misnomer.  They've graduated.  They are not transferring.

No special treatment it is apples and oranges. The goal of college is to graduate and advance towards further career development. 

I'll say it again.  Your statements in this thread demonstrate a complete lack of comprehension of academia, athletics and what each requires as far as demands and obligations.

p.s.  I was a division 1 athlete until an injury took me out.

Is the goal of grad school not to graduate? Same thing. Progress toward degree is a top concern. Changing schools is more difficult than not doing so.

If you're in grad school, you HAVE NOT graduated what you are currently in school for. You should be pursuing a degree. The goal of grad school is not to obtain an undergrad degree. So, that the student has an undergrad degree isn't an accomplishment of grad school.

I'm aware of the demands and obligations - I'm also aware of the unprincipled rules and regulations of the NCAA. The right fix is to remove the grad transfer exception.

...or we could go back to your days, a''ina? It was what, only the early 70's and prior when freshmen bballers were not allowed to compete until a year of school.

I think your answer to "why the special treatment for grad transfers" is "because they graduated and that is to be celebrated by letting them transfer for non-academic purposes"... I disagree.

[forgetful]

Is the goal of grad school not to graduate? Same thing. Progress toward degree is a top concern. Changing schools is more difficult than not doing so.

If you're in grad school, you HAVE NOT graduated what you are currently in school for. You should be pursuing a degree. The goal of grad school is not to obtain an undergrad degree. So, that the student has an undergrad degree isn't an accomplishment of grad school.

You do not understand graduate school.  You have to first graduate.  The athletes in question have done that.

Then, the vast vast majority (essentially everyone that can), takes their degree and goes to a different school to get more specialized training (graduate school).

There is no "changing schools being more difficult", because that is the norm.  That is what is expected.  One will almost universally change schools.

Your second paragraph is incomprehensible.  A graduate student does not transfer. Upon completion of their undergraduate degree, they are no longer enrolled as an undergraduate or a graduate. 

They have completed their entire course of studies at the present institution.  To pursue an advanced degree it is the norm to move to a new university as a new student (not a transfer). 

So to restate my point; a graduate student does not transfer; they are no longer associated with the University besides athletics.  They are not comparable at all to undergraduate transfers.

[Badgerhater]

You do not understand graduate school.  You have to first graduate.  The athletes in question have done that.

Then, the vast vast majority (essentially everyone that can), takes their degree and goes to a different school to get more specialized training (graduate school).

There is no "changing schools being more difficult", because that is the norm.  That is what is expected.  One will almost universally change schools.

Your second paragraph is incomprehensible.  A graduate student does not transfer. Upon completion of their undergraduate degree, they are no longer enrolled as an undergraduate or a graduate. 

They have completed their entire course of studies at the present institution.  To pursue an advanced degree it is the norm to move to a new university as a new student (not a transfer). 

So to restate my point; a graduate student does not transfer; they are no longer associated with the University besides athletics.  They are not comparable at all to undergraduate transfers.

+1

Even if one goes to the same school for grad studies he has to apply for admission because grad school is a whole new endeavor.  He Just doesn't show up to class the next semester.

[Jay Bee]

You do not understand graduate school.  You have to first graduate.  The athletes in question have done that.

Then, the vast vast majority (essentially everyone that can), takes their degree and goes to a different school to get more specialized training (graduate school).

There is no "changing schools being more difficult", because that is the norm.  That is what is expected.  One will almost universally change schools.

Your second paragraph is incomprehensible.  A graduate student does not transfer. Upon completion of their undergraduate degree, they are no longer enrolled as an undergraduate or a graduate. 

They have completed their entire course of studies at the present institution.  To pursue an advanced degree it is the norm to move to a new university as a new student (not a transfer). 

So to restate my point; a graduate student does not transfer; they are no longer associated with the University besides athletics.  They are not comparable at all to undergraduate transfers.

No. You do not understand the point. Changing schools is more difficult than not changing schools, period.

You can cry about the language if you wish, but the fact of the matter is graduate transfers are subject to the requirements of the one-time transfer exception in the NCAA Bylaws. Transfer, transfer, transfer!

What does requiring a year in residence do for schools who bring in graduate TRANSFERS? Holds them accountable for the academic progress of grad students (under the APR, etc... e.g., retention point is earned just for remaining eligible). The majority of DI bballers who transfer as graduates don't obtain an advanced degree and many take a bunch of undergrad classes.

The issue is kids are transferring for athletic first reasons. If you're going to say you're all about students first, athletes second, then eliminate the exception.

[GGGG]

Of course they are transferring for athletics first. Good for them!

[brewcity77]

The notion that academics are first is noble, but generally laughable. The NCAA is not there as an athletic driver and we all know it. Anyone asserting otherwise is selling something.

That said, if they will continue to prop up the academic aspect, then grad transfers should be allowed to freely and immediately go elsewhere. First, it rewards the academic achievement, and as forgetful accurately states, most graduates get their post-bachelor degree elsewhere. They have completed their academic pursuit at that school.

Further, how inane is it to suggest a year in residence when some graduate programs can be completed in a year? "Come here, get your graduate degree, then twiddle your thumbs for a year when you are finally allowed to play."

Seems pretty clear that forgetful is spot on, both in argument and experience.

[forgetful]

No. You do not understand the point. Changing schools is more difficult than not changing schools, period.

You can cry about the language if you wish, but the fact of the matter is graduate transfers are subject to the requirements of the one-time transfer exception in the NCAA Bylaws. Transfer, transfer, transfer!

You have no basis for the first claim in regards to graduate students.  They almost all change schools so you have nothing to compare to. 

The language the NCAA uses says they only care about athletics and are not "academics first".  If they were academics first they wouldn't even have a graduate exemption, as their shouldn't be one.  There is no transfer except in terms of athletics.

The reason they use that language and have the rule is because the Universities are dictating these bylaws and want to protect their athletics program.  The very existence of a graduate "transfer" rule illustrates the NCAA doesn't give a damn about academics.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Why does it matter that students transfer for  athletic reasons first? They are under no obligation to see themselves as students first. Only the NCAA is under that obligation.

[MU82]

If you're going to say you're all about students first, athletes second, then eliminate the exception.

Are you all about students first? If so, gotta get rid of any transfers having to sit out any time.

If not, if you're all about the athletes first ... same thing.

If you're not for either of them, that means you're all about those in power being first. Which is your prerogative.

[Jay Bee]

Why does it matter that students transfer for  athletic reasons first? They are under no obligation to see themselves as students first. Only the NCAA is under that obligation.

Hello. The topic is NCAA rules.

You folks are so off track.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hello. The topic is NCAA rules.

You folks are so off track.

You keep bringing up that players are transferring for athlete first reasons. Why does that matter? Who cares what their priorities are?

[Jay Bee]

You keep bringing up that players are transferring for athlete first reasons. Why does that matter? Who cares what their priorities are?

Because if the NCAA is OK with that, all amateurism arguments go south and collegiate sports today as we know them are dramatically changed (for the worse, IMO).

[GGGG]

Amateurism arguments have been going south for years. 

[Jay Bee]

Amateurism arguments have been going south for years.

Yep. Time to firm things up. Eliminate the grad transfer exception.

[GGGG]

Yep. Time to firm things up. Eliminate the grad transfer exception.

Nope.  Amateurism is foolish.  Loosen the rules even more.

[jsglow]

While I absolutely see JB's point, I'm personally a an of the current grad transfer rule for many of the reasons articulated but largely centered on the fact that encourages kids to get their degree.  But it does seem true that many of the rules surrounding the treatment of NCAA athletes could stand some upgrading and I'm wondering if the multiple year scholarship commitment might be part of the solution. I also selfishly wish that the NBA would tweak its rules and get a few kids straight out of HS (LeBron) and, if not then, wait a minimum of 2 years after that before allowing them to become draft eligible.  I personally hate One and Done.  Not sure any of that would pass legal muster but it would improve the college game.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Because if the NCAA is OK with that, all amateurism arguments go south and collegiate sports today as we know them are dramatically changed (for the worse, IMO).

Where in the NCAA rules does it require players to make student first decisions? It only requires that the nccas policies be student first

[Jay Bee]

Where in the NCAA rules does it require players to make student first decisions? It only requires that the nccas policies be student first

That's the topic - NCAA policy.