collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* Recent Posts

Purdue win looking good :-) Purdue 69 #5 UVA 40 by rocky_warrior
[December 05, 2019, 11:32:23 PM]


Upsets! / Surprise results. by MU82
[December 05, 2019, 11:09:34 PM]


Orlando Invitational - Unofficial Guide by GooooMarquette
[December 05, 2019, 11:00:00 PM]


Big East Non Conference Results by Herman Cain
[December 05, 2019, 10:53:05 PM]


Recruiting as of 11/15/19 by MU82
[December 05, 2019, 10:31:41 PM]


NM by GooooMarquette
[December 05, 2019, 09:47:14 PM]


Blue and Gold Auction now open for bids by ski44
[December 05, 2019, 09:44:41 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?  (Read 1183 times)

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6317
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2019, 10:44:54 AM »
This almost deserves it's own thread, as it must be discussed.

Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. 


In order for a movie to be considered a "Christmas Movie" it must posses the following three qualities:

1. The setting must take place in or around the holidays and it must be significant to the plot that it is.

2. It must have a positive ending with an uplifting message or story conclusion.  (It can be sad, but overall be positive.  See: Family Stone)

3. It must be overall family friendly. (You can push boundaries with language or mild violence, ala Home alone or Christmas Vacation, but most parents know when it's gone too far)


Die hard barely falls into category 1 and 2.  But even if you made that argument, the violence, language, etc precludes it from category 3.

Sorry Die Hard as a Christmas movie fans, you are mistaken.

Is bad Santa a Christmas movie then? I've never seen it but I know when it came out my parents barred me from seeing it.

Also glad this means I don't have to watch love actually this holiday as it officially not a Christmas movie!
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

UWW2MU

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2019, 10:46:33 AM »
delete
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:49:29 AM by UWW2MU »

UWW2MU

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2019, 10:47:20 AM »
Is bad Santa a Christmas movie then? I've never seen it but I know when it came out my parents barred me from seeing it.

Also glad this means I don't have to watch love actually this holiday as it officially not a Christmas movie!


I have an exemption claus that I forgot to add.   I'm editing it in now to explain movies like Bad Santa.

Benny B

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5880
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2019, 12:04:46 PM »
Question, does some part of the movie, no matter the length have to occur in the movie for it to be considered a Christmas movie?

Benny's Standard Qualifications for Inclusion in the 'Christmas Movie' Genre:

1) The 'Chekhov's Gun' test: the Christmas element must advance the story and not be superfluous to the plot.  In other words, if you removed the Christmas element, it would leave a hole in the plot.

2) Either The story's climax must unambiguously take place on Christmas/Christmas Eve.

3) The Christmas holiday is central to the plot. In other words, Christmas cannot be substituted with Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or a non-denominational holiday without changing the plot.

-------------

Die Hard qualifies because if you take Christmas element out, a major plot hole opens in why the Nakatomi employees have gathered for a party at the building after hours on this particular night (which leads to them being taken hostage), but also (amongst other minor plot holes), it changes the significance as to why McClane has taken a trans-continental flight to attempt to reconcile with his wife on this particular day.  Further, if you sub out Christmas, the viewer may get confused as to why a Japanese firm in Los Angeles is hosting a Hannukah party (on Dec 24th, no less).

Trading Places fails because while most of the movie takes place during the Christmas season, the final act clearly takes place after Jan 1.  Further, while Mortimer and Randolph aren't exactly Herschel and Schlomo, it wouldn't be out of the question that Duke & Duke were throwing a Hanukkah party, even if it were crashed by Louis in a Santa outfit (frankly, he could be wearing any sort of disguise)... nevertheless, the Christmas party itself isn't exactly central to the plot, Louis could have sneaked into the office in the middle of the day dressed as a janitor and it still works (likewise, Ophelia didn't need to be distracted by tinsel from noticing Louis' OD, the checks could simply be EOY bonuses).  Frankly, the central element here is the crop report, the timing of which was merely correlated to, not dependent upon, the timing of Christmas, i.e. it could have been a QI crop report, a mid-summer crop report, a harvest crop report, etc.

-----------------

All that being said, I just noticed that the image for Trading Places on my iTunes movie library is Louis (wearing the Santa outfit) and Billy Ray inside a snow globe.  As such, I am reevaluating my criteria, and I will travel by train to DC on Dec 31 to deliver a report indicating what, if any, revisions will be made to the criteria.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2019, 02:31:44 PM »
The honest trailer for that Rudolph movie cracks me up.

Just watched it for the first time - really well done. 

Waldo Jeffers

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1749
  • The Gift
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2019, 02:40:23 PM »
The honest trailer for that Rudolph movie cracks me up.
Are you picking on the dentists here?  ;D
Quote
He'll be a dentist some day, which is clearly code for gay, come here open your mouth.

CTWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3503
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2019, 03:14:44 PM »
Benny's Standard Qualifications for Inclusion in the 'Christmas Movie' Genre:

1) The 'Chekhov's Gun' test: the Christmas element must advance the story and not be superfluous to the plot.  In other words, if you removed the Christmas element, it would leave a hole in the plot.

2) Either The story's climax must unambiguously take place on Christmas/Christmas Eve.

3) The Christmas holiday is central to the plot. In other words, Christmas cannot be substituted with Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or a non-denominational holiday without changing the plot.

-------------

Die Hard qualifies because if you take Christmas element out, a major plot hole opens in why the Nakatomi employees have gathered for a party at the building after hours on this particular night (which leads to them being taken hostage), but also (amongst other minor plot holes), it changes the significance as to why McClane has taken a trans-continental flight to attempt to reconcile with his wife on this particular day.  Further, if you sub out Christmas, the viewer may get confused as to why a Japanese firm in Los Angeles is hosting a Hannukah party (on Dec 24th, no less).

Trading Places fails because while most of the movie takes place during the Christmas season, the final act clearly takes place after Jan 1.  Further, while Mortimer and Randolph aren't exactly Herschel and Schlomo, it wouldn't be out of the question that Duke & Duke were throwing a Hanukkah party, even if it were crashed by Louis in a Santa outfit (frankly, he could be wearing any sort of disguise)... nevertheless, the Christmas party itself isn't exactly central to the plot, Louis could have sneaked into the office in the middle of the day dressed as a janitor and it still works (likewise, Ophelia didn't need to be distracted by tinsel from noticing Louis' OD, the checks could simply be EOY bonuses).  Frankly, the central element here is the crop report, the timing of which was merely correlated to, not dependent upon, the timing of Christmas, i.e. it could have been a QI crop report, a mid-summer crop report, a harvest crop report, etc.

-----------------

All that being said, I just noticed that the image for Trading Places on my iTunes movie library is Louis (wearing the Santa outfit) and Billy Ray inside a snow globe.  As such, I am reevaluating my criteria, and I will travel by train to DC on Dec 31 to deliver a report indicating what, if any, revisions will be made to the criteria.
I disagree.
If you take Christmas out, the employees could be having a party for signing a big client, or having a great quarter or something like that.  It doesn't have to be a Christmas party.  Stuff like that was not uncommon in the 80s, particularly with new and successful companies.  John could easily have been visiting for a son or daughter's birthday coinciding with that party.  Doesn't have to revolve around Christmas. 

The only element to the story where Christmas is really referenced is when the Electrical worker didn't want to turn the power grid down to take power away from a large area on Christmas Eve.  That was not central to the plot and it could have been "on the hottest night of the year" or "with the Dodgers playing" or anything like that.
Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

UWW2MU

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2019, 04:07:30 PM »
Benny's Standard Qualifications for Inclusion in the 'Christmas Movie' Genre:

1) The 'Chekhov's Gun' test: the Christmas element must advance the story and not be superfluous to the plot.  In other words, if you removed the Christmas element, it would leave a hole in the plot.

2) Either The story's climax must unambiguously take place on Christmas/Christmas Eve.

3) The Christmas holiday is central to the plot. In other words, Christmas cannot be substituted with Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or a non-denominational holiday without changing the plot.

-------------

Die Hard qualifies because if you take Christmas element out, a major plot hole opens in why the Nakatomi employees have gathered for a party at the building after hours on this particular night (which leads to them being taken hostage), but also (amongst other minor plot holes), it changes the significance as to why McClane has taken a trans-continental flight to attempt to reconcile with his wife on this particular day.  Further, if you sub out Christmas, the viewer may get confused as to why a Japanese firm in Los Angeles is hosting a Hannukah party (on Dec 24th, no less).

Trading Places fails because while most of the movie takes place during the Christmas season, the final act clearly takes place after Jan 1.  Further, while Mortimer and Randolph aren't exactly Herschel and Schlomo, it wouldn't be out of the question that Duke & Duke were throwing a Hanukkah party, even if it were crashed by Louis in a Santa outfit (frankly, he could be wearing any sort of disguise)... nevertheless, the Christmas party itself isn't exactly central to the plot, Louis could have sneaked into the office in the middle of the day dressed as a janitor and it still works (likewise, Ophelia didn't need to be distracted by tinsel from noticing Louis' OD, the checks could simply be EOY bonuses).  Frankly, the central element here is the crop report, the timing of which was merely correlated to, not dependent upon, the timing of Christmas, i.e. it could have been a QI crop report, a mid-summer crop report, a harvest crop report, etc.

-----------------

All that being said, I just noticed that the image for Trading Places on my iTunes movie library is Louis (wearing the Santa outfit) and Billy Ray inside a snow globe.  As such, I am reevaluating my criteria, and I will travel by train to DC on Dec 31 to deliver a report indicating what, if any, revisions will be made to the criteria.

How dare you come up with your own criteria!   Especially one that has fewer spelling and grammatical errors than mine.    I may have to put you on ignore.

Either way, CTWarrior picked apart your Die Hard justification pretty solidly.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 20109
  • Alan Bykowski
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2019, 04:22:03 PM »
The only element to the story where Christmas is really referenced is when the Electrical worker didn't want to turn the power grid down to take power away from a large area on Christmas Eve.  That was not central to the plot and it could have been "on the hottest night of the year" or "with the Dodgers playing" or anything like that.

You're really stretching to disqualify the greatest Christmas movie of all time. The confluence of the party, the cross country travel, and the critical power grid (which is essential to the robbery plot) is that all of those things are centered around Christmas.

You are coming up with three new explanations for three different critical movie events that are all simply explained by "it's a Christmas movie".

I could just as easily say A Christmas Story isn't a Christmas movie because Ralphie could want the Red Rider BB gun for his birthday, they could be forced to go to a Chinese restaurant on any holiday that closes traditional businesses, and the parade they attend could be for the Fourth of July, but Christmas explains all three plot points more simply.

Just like Die Hard.

MUDish

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1687
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2019, 04:28:50 PM »
Always bothered me that Die Hard messed up and had a Norte Dame/USC game being played on Christmas Eve.
“Always In Before The Lock”
T. Jefferson

muwarrior69

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3196
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2019, 04:34:00 PM »
You're really stretching to disqualify the greatest Christmas movie of all time. The confluence of the party, the cross country travel, and the critical power grid (which is essential to the robbery plot) is that all of those things are centered around Christmas.

You are coming up with three new explanations for three different critical movie events that are all simply explained by "it's a Christmas movie".

I could just as easily say A Christmas Story isn't a Christmas movie because Ralphie could want the Red Rider BB gun for his birthday, they could be forced to go to a Chinese restaurant on any holiday that closes traditional businesses, and the parade they attend could be for the Fourth of July, but Christmas explains all three plot points more simply.

Just like Die Hard.

I don't ever remember a large company that had an office Christmas party on Christmas eve.

mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4875
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2019, 04:41:14 PM »
I disagree.
If you take Christmas out, the employees could be having a party for signing a big client, or having a great quarter or something like that.  It doesn't have to be a Christmas party.  Stuff like that was not uncommon in the 80s, particularly with new and successful companies.  John could easily have been visiting for a son or daughter's birthday coinciding with that party.  Doesn't have to revolve around Christmas. 

The only element to the story where Christmas is really referenced is when the Electrical worker didn't want to turn the power grid down to take power away from a large area on Christmas Eve.  That was not central to the plot and it could have been "on the hottest night of the year" or "with the Dodgers playing" or anything like that.

I mean you could do that with any Christmas movie....you could turn Home Alone into a 4th of July movie by that rule set.

Other core elements of Die Hard plot that tie to Christmas specifically are:
-Mclain uses Christmas tape to tape the handgun to his back
-The Ho Ho Ho message on the dead bad guy
-The line "It's Christmas, it's a time of miracles" is pretty memorable and if you change the holiday I have no idea how you'd restructure that.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4875
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2019, 04:41:40 PM »
I don't ever remember a large company that had an office Christmas party on Christmas eve.

Well they were a Japanese company.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

TAMU Garcia

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 16179
  • A Reading from Wojo's 1st Slide to the Marquettens
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2019, 05:44:42 PM »
The honest trailer for that Rudolph movie cracks me up.

That was excellent
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4279
  • Immensely correct
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2019, 09:40:11 PM »
I disagree.
If you take Christmas out, the employees could be having a party for signing a big client, or having a great quarter or something like that.  It doesn't have to be a Christmas party.  Stuff like that was not uncommon in the 80s, particularly with new and successful companies.  John could easily have been visiting for a son or daughter's birthday coinciding with that party.  Doesn't have to revolve around Christmas. 

The only element to the story where Christmas is really referenced is when the Electrical worker didn't want to turn the power grid down to take power away from a large area on Christmas Eve.  That was not central to the plot and it could have been "on the hottest night of the year" or "with the Dodgers playing" or anything like that.


https://ew.com/article/2015/12/24/die-hard-christmas-movie/


Idaho, birthplace of Television.

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2019, 09:47:02 PM »

UWW2MU

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2019, 09:59:09 PM »
Look, I get it.  It's fun to say Die Hard is a Christmas movie.  The reactions it gets is entertaining.  But all the reasons given above hold no water.  All of those elements could be removed and the movie would be exactly the same movie.  Any attempt to explain otherwise is just twisting facts to fit your narrative.

Besides, even Bruce Willis said it isn't a Christmas movie.

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2019, 10:23:48 PM »
Look, I get it.  It's fun to say Die Hard is a Christmas movie.  The reactions it gets is entertaining.  But all the reasons given above hold no water.  All of those elements could be removed and the movie would be exactly the same movie.  Any attempt to explain otherwise is just twisting facts to fit your narrative.

Besides, even Bruce Willis said it isn't a Christmas movie.

Yeah, not that simple.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/07/16/is-die-hard-a-christmas-movie-bruce-willis-finally-has-an-answer/

Benny B

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5880
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2019, 11:43:46 PM »
I disagree.
If you take Christmas out, the employees could be having a party for signing a big client, or having a great quarter or something like that.  It doesn't have to be a Christmas party.  Stuff like that was not uncommon in the 80s, particularly with new and successful companies.  John could easily have been visiting for a son or daughter's birthday coinciding with that party.  Doesn't have to revolve around Christmas. 

The only element to the story where Christmas is really referenced is when the Electrical worker didn't want to turn the power grid down to take power away from a large area on Christmas Eve.  That was not central to the plot and it could have been "on the hottest night of the year" or "with the Dodgers playing" or anything like that.

Ok, I’m no literature or drama major (after all, I do have a job, haha), but I’m pretty sure you’ve materially altered the plot simply by changing the setting (time of year). 

in any event, you’ve gone complete Back to the Future with your storyline... it only works if you keep things mostly intact like Avengers: Endgame. 
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4279
  • Immensely correct
Re: Best/Worst Christmas Movies?
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2019, 11:52:15 PM »
Look, I get it.  It's fun to say Die Hard is a Christmas movie.  The reactions it gets is entertaining.  But all the reasons given above hold no water.  All of those elements could be removed and the movie would be exactly the same movie.  Any attempt to explain otherwise is just twisting facts to fit your narrative.

Besides, even Bruce Willis said it isn't a Christmas movie.


On December 24, 2017, Die Hard screenwriter Steven E. de Souza stated on Twitter that Die Hard is a Christmas film.


« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 11:57:15 PM by Cheeks »
Idaho, birthplace of Television.