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Author Topic: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime  (Read 671 times)

tower912

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2023, 03:57:15 PM »
You picked  two of the three reasons my millennial daughter left the Roman Catholic church.   The third is the cover up of  sexual abuse.
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21Jumpstreet

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2023, 04:10:48 PM »
You picked  two of the three reasons my millennial daughter left the Roman Catholic church.   The third is the cover up of  sexual abuse.

Yep, and for me it was when the Church kicked out my godfather because he was gay and had a consensual relationship with an adult. Also, my parents got divorced after 30 years, paid a few bucks, got an annulment, got remarried in the church.

I was raised Catholic, got married in a Catholic Church, heck even my two sons are baptized as my wife and I thought it was the right thing to do. She is/was also decidedly Catholic. Really it was just what we thought our parents expected. Our oldest had two godfathers, which was a hoot.

I have no issue with faith and the idea that humans are not the end all be all of the universe. I do have an issue with man made up stuff that says “homosexuality” is bad and “unnatural” or even criminal to gain some sort of following, power, and control. I’m sure the church is attempting to evolve so they can keep making money off a new crop of followers, not unlike most things in life.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2023, 04:24:58 PM »
This isn't just limited to the Catholic Church.  I have a really good friend who is a pastor at a mainline Protestant church - one that is much more tolerant of homosexuality and performs same sex marriages. She says that it is a constant struggle keeping millennials and GenZers involved in the Church - even her own GenZ son.  So this isn't just about issues unique to the Catholic Church. I think there is a fundamental change in how organized religion is a part of those generation's lives.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2023, 04:25:34 PM »
Brother Galway:

On the first, we do see our culture as the "best." I think everybody does. Many Scoopers propose maximum means to improve. I've been guilty of that a time or two. But most of us still love our country and the inherent values we stand for -- even though we don't often live up to our ideals.

On the second, I'm not blaming the Millennials, Gen X or even Gen Z for whatever problems exist in Christian Churches. Quite the contrary, I'm arguing that most Christian Churches haven't tailored their message for their target audience. In my faith's case, we have certain doctrinal issues that are primary and not changeable. It's how we view God and each other. We also have a boatload of rituals that may have made sense 400 years ago but should either be changed or eliminated to address the new reality of God's people. For example, my faith's views of the role of women are largely primitive and frankly, ignorant in places. They reflect a division of labor that hasn't existed in at least since World War II.

The role of women, views on homosexuality are the kinds of things that an inclusive Christian religion must re-evaluate as it appeals to the next generations.

Culture being the best vs the end all be all of social progress are two different things. One is just nationalism (not in the poor connotation it's developed) and is well within the rights of someone to believe and embrace. The other one is pretty objectively false.

Fair, maybe I misinterpreted your point regarding millennials and I apologize.   I've made it my mission of late to stop taking millennial scapegoating from your generation and am just pointing out most of us have kids and a mortgage now days and aren't exactly the group people generally mean when they still view us as job hopping Facebook addicts. 
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JWags85

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2023, 04:49:21 PM »
This isn't just limited to the Catholic Church.  I have a really good friend who is a pastor at a mainline Protestant church - one that is much more tolerant of homosexuality and performs same sex marriages. She says that it is a constant struggle keeping millennials and GenZers involved in the Church - even her own GenZ son.  So this isn't just about issues unique to the Catholic Church. I think there is a fundamental change in how organized religion is a part of those generation's lives.

As a non-Catholic millennial who still grew up in a religious church going household, I agree.  My family was initial WELS Lutheran, which may as well be Catholic for all the dogma, rigidity, and close minded thinking.  I saw/knew countless kids my age who left that realm, many of whom went to a WELS school through HS, only to land in other Protestant camps.

I think Millennials were the first generation to experience sort of a sea change in Christianity.  Modern/contemporary churches took hold, the internet and live stream, further connectedness to the world and suddenly being "religious" or participating in organized religion, much less being a Christian believer, had far more options than just "I go to Church every Sunday" and "I don't go to Church".

Hell, my mom and Dad in their 60s grew up WELS and HARDCORE Catholic (my Grandpa used to attend Mass 2-3 times a week until he passed), respectively.  They pulled away from WELS as I mentioned, had a period of no church in my teens, then attended more of a contemporary Presbyterian congregation.  Now they are infrequent church goers, but I'd argue they are more religious than they ever have been, even as its self directed.

MU82

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2023, 09:26:52 PM »
Great discussion guys. I’m non-religious but I’ve long found religions, especially the continuing evolution of mainstream religions, to be fascinating topics.

Skatastrophy

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2023, 09:32:47 PM »
Great discussion guys. I’m non-religious but I’ve long found religions, especially the continuing evolution of mainstream religions, to be fascinating topics.

Yeah I'm in the same boat. I think we, as a society, are missing something bringing our neighborhoods/towns together into a gathering place where we're forced to intermingle. Taking the weird religious stuff away, churches were a great way to bring a community together.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next 20-40 years as religion continues to die out in the West. There will be community connectivity that's lost for sure.

dgies9156

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2023, 09:38:50 PM »
Fair, maybe I misinterpreted your point regarding millennials and I apologize.   I've made it my mission of late to stop taking millennial scapegoating from your generation and am just pointing out most of us have kids and a mortgage now days and aren't exactly the group people generally mean when they still view us as job hopping Facebook addicts.

Brother Galway:

No problem and no need to apologize. When my generation bashes Millennials, we're hypocrites. We were the same way in the 1970s and 1980s. Every time I go off on someone "on my lawn" so to speak, my wife is quick to remind me what I was like in the early 1980s.

On the broader topic, we had a marvelous and very relevant homily at our parish in Vero Beach this past Sunday. Father Danny Murphy, our Associate Pastor, spoke of the need for our Roman Catholic Church to emphasize inclusion. His direct point was we don't do enough as a community and as a church to be inclusive, whether one is gay or straight, married or single, black or white etc. Our second reading was a passage from St. Paul that emphasized that Jesus was for everyone -- including us awful gentiles.

My Parish in Chicago was something else. For the last 10 years or so -- or since our current Pastor took charge -- our parish has been so out of touch with reality that it was almost passé. I went to Mass there solely because we were part of a larger Christian community and I knew a lot of people from the 28 years we lived there. But the priests in our parish had no clue about the problems, concerns and worries of the people on the other side of the altar. It was as if it was a burden for them to interact with us. Had it not been for the Deacons, God knows where we would have been.

At the time we left last fall, our three priests were Irish, East African and Mexican. All were fine men but they were extremely socially awkward and had no sense of the people they were sent to shepherd. I think at least two of them thought of us as spoiled rotten (which, given what they'd seen, we probably were) but that's hardly an attitude to take toward the people to whom you ministered. Their sermons were of the Angels on Pinheads variety and most were so conservative as to be not relevant.

One tiny little example of how the church has lost sway. When I was young, families of five to nine children were not uncommon. In fact, they were a sign of pride. Today, you look around a Catholic Church and while there is the occasional family with 4+ children, most are of the two or three child variety. If I was a priest teaching the doctrine of the church, I'd be really disappointed.

One final thought: Catholics have had a fundamental debate since Vatican II. It's one not often phrased this way but it's focused on our view of God. Before Vatican II, we had something called the Baltimore Catechism, which taught we were put here as a test to assess our worthiness for the Kingdom of God. In this view of faith, God is the ultimate accountant, tallying up debits and credits and seeing if you have net worth. She was a rather catty, somewhat vengeful God who wasn't afraid to send you to the eternal flames. Since Vatican II, we have God the Hippie Love Child who loves all Her children with all Her love, even if we don't love Her, or act like we love Her.  She made us all in her own image and likeness and sought for us to be happy on this world.

God the Hippie Love Child is the "if it feels good, do it" God. She'll forgive you. That's the God that's appealing to many today. God the Hippie Love Child is inwardly focused on a personal relationship and is big on Situationalism. Accepting the Hippie Love Child version of God tends to dismiss what my Marquette professors use to espouse as Positive Moral Values.

There has to be a balance somewhere between these two versions of God, though we tend to align ourselves with one or the other.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 09:43:04 PM by dgies9156 »

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2023, 10:21:47 PM »
These issues aren't even unique to conservative Christian crowds. My wife and I were both raised Catholic. Mrs. TAMU wandered away from the church entirely and I was barely sticking with it because I didn't connect with any of the parishes near me. We talked it out and decided to search outside the Catholic church and ended up connecting and getting really involved with a Congregationalist church. Very progressive, open and affirming (church speak for pro-lgbtq+), does a lot of anti-racism work. Even before the pandemic, the congregation was mostly 50+ years old despite being in a college town and actively trying to appeal to gen z and young millennials. After the pandemic, the few gen zers and young millennials that used to come are gone, mostly because they've continued to utilize remote church. We're still trying to figure out how to try to bring our younger members back.
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21Jumpstreet

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2023, 10:33:30 PM »
Yeah I'm in the same boat. I think we, as a society, are missing something bringing our neighborhoods/towns together into a gathering place where we're forced to intermingle. Taking the weird religious stuff away, churches were a great way to bring a community together.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next 20-40 years as religion continues to die out in the West. There will be community connectivity that's lost for sure.

It’s possible that God focused religions are being replaced by new religions like conservatism, liberalism, capitalism, communism. Each of these will continue to bring community together while simultaneously tearing the same community apart. Religion will never die, it will only evolve.

A first step in moving past religion might be to move past labels, but we like to label and be part of labels. Religion is the ultimate conundrum.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 10:35:43 PM by 21Jumpstreet »

Babybluejeans

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #35 on: Today at 08:05:25 AM »
It’s possible that God focused religions are being replaced by new religions like conservatism, liberalism, capitalism, communism. Each of these will continue to bring community together while simultaneously tearing the same community apart. Religion will never die, it will only evolve.


Ding ding ding. Time to face the fact that we now live in a post-God world. The enlightenment and scientific revolution began its demise; it shook the foundations for organized religions’ ability to control people. And the technological and cultural revolutions killed it for good. People aren’t going back to churches not because of bad politics (that hadn’t helped), but because so much of the modern world has moved past God itself. Recall that the era of a monotheistic, all-knowing, all-controlling “god” only arose in the last few thousand years. That’s nothing in the grand scheme of human history—and we’re simply at the end of the end of that era.

But to Jumpstreets point, people will always worship some kind of god or gods. It can be capitalism, it can be our phones, it can be food, it can be exercise, it can be anything. But whether you like it or not, organized religion as we know it is done. Two or three generations hence, churches will be little more than museums (in Europe, they already are).

And by the way, this is all ok.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:07:11 AM by Babybluejeans »

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #36 on: Today at 08:39:38 AM »
These issues aren't even unique to conservative Christian crowds. My wife and I were both raised Catholic. Mrs. TAMU wandered away from the church entirely and I was barely sticking with it because I didn't connect with any of the parishes near me. We talked it out and decided to search outside the Catholic church and ended up connecting and getting really involved with a Congregationalist church. Very progressive, open and affirming (church speak for pro-lgbtq+), does a lot of anti-racism work. Even before the pandemic, the congregation was mostly 50+ years old despite being in a college town and actively trying to appeal to gen z and young millennials. After the pandemic, the few gen zers and young millennials that used to come are gone, mostly because they've continued to utilize remote church. We're still trying to figure out how to try to bring our younger members back.

An interesting thread.

The Congregationalists, who were interestingly the original Puritans.  What an evolution they've had.  Every Green (or Common for the Bostonians) in New England has a Congregational Church on it. 

In grammar school and high school, one of my best friends' dad was a Congregationalist Minister.  My group of Catholic friends all joined the Congregationalist youth group mostly because we were hanging out together anyway and my Catholic Church did not have one.  We had fun outings and did some volunteer work and even got to spend a night in the The Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine for some youth group program.  (The 6th largest church in the world.)  The reverend let us play laser tag in the church also which somehow has some kind of Alanis Morrissette Ironic about it.  I would go to service sometimes with my friend and it was interesting how simple the mass was.  The youth group had to partake in the Congregationalist Easter Sunrise Service held at the town nature center.   

My parents loved Reverend Gibbs and when my dad died (my sophomore year of Marquette) the Reverend was really the only religious person who would routinely check up on my mom.  My mom insisted he be a part of my dad's funeral mass and I recall my parish priest not really being too happy.  He mostly partook as an alter boy and did give a brief homily after our parish priest also at my mom's insistence.

Weirdly my friend ended up marrying a Catholic girl and they raised their daughter Catholic including attending a Catholic high school.  The reverend said he was just happy the son's family remained practicing Christians.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Pope Francis says homosexuality is not a crime
« Reply #37 on: Today at 08:50:02 AM »
Ding ding ding. Time to face the fact that we now live in a post-God world. The enlightenment and scientific revolution began its demise; it shook the foundations for organized religions’ ability to control people. And the technological and cultural revolutions killed it for good. People aren’t going back to churches not because of bad politics (that hadn’t helped), but because so much of the modern world has moved past God itself. Recall that the era of a monotheistic, all-knowing, all-controlling “god” only arose in the last few thousand years. That’s nothing in the grand scheme of human history—and we’re simply at the end of the end of that era.

But to Jumpstreets point, people will always worship some kind of god or gods. It can be capitalism, it can be our phones, it can be food, it can be exercise, it can be anything. But whether you like it or not, organized religion as we know it is done. Two or three generations hence, churches will be little more than museums (in Europe, they already are).

And by the way, this is all ok.


I'm not sure we can say we are in a "post-God" world quite yet.  Most GenZers in the United States still identify as "Christian" and 2/3 identify as believing in a particular religion. But the trends aren't good if you are a religious leader right now.

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/

“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

 

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