History / McGuire recruiting

[ChicosBailBonds]

Our resident scold would have found the entire Al era squirmy.

I enjoyed immensely working with Al for several years as the Executive producer of the tv and radio network.  Al was great to me, my wife, etc.

Different times, I'm glad the NCAA put a lot of regs and rules in place as a result of what was going on at many places...UCLA, Louisville, Kentucky, Long Beach State, etc....and yes...MU, too.


Back in those days the rules weren't laid out well, way too many loopholes, low education and enforcement.  That isn't the case today. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I got kicked off Dodds site because I stated MU and particularly Al, much like Coach Wooden had a Sam Gilbert type person at MU.  George came to MU without seeing
the school, 2nd year Dean Memminger, 3 time first team all New York City, showed up.   Even Allie who I played ball with admitted things were being done outside
the box.  Even Marquette got out bid for Sam Bowie, visited 2 schools,  Kentucky.  Al was a little squirmy.  I am sure Al knew what was going on, compared to Wooden
who had is head in the sand.

Yup, but as stated, the rules, grey areas, enforcement and education was also a lot different back then, too.  No excuse for it today, you can't even land one of these positions without passing certain level of NCAA rules tests...that simply wasn't the case back then. 

[Lennys Tap]

I enjoyed immensely working with Al for several years as the Executive producer of the tv and radio network.  Al was great to me, my wife, etc.

Different times, I'm glad the NCAA put a lot of regs and rules in place as a result of what was going on at many places...UCLA, Louisville, Kentucky, Long Beach State, etc....and yes...MU, too.


Back in those days the rules weren't laid out well, way too many loopholes, low education and enforcement.  That isn't the case today.

Al McGuire recruited kids from tough neighborhoods/bad schools - the type who, in your opinion, devalue a Marquette diploma.

You're wrong, of course. Those Warriors, by and large, did us proud. And IMHO they leaned more that mattered from Al than you did at your multiple alma maters from your scores of teachers. My two cents.

[GGGG]

God is there a more Chicosesque move than to name drop the subject of the conversation?  As if that matters....

[Lennys Tap]

God is there a more Chicosesque move than to name drop the subject of the conversation?  As if that matters....

The lack of self awareness would be stunning...but it's Chico!

[ChicosBailBonds]

God is there a more Chicosesque move than to name drop the subject of the conversation?  As if that matters....

Well, someone said I would be squirmy about Al.  Well, I got to work with Al for three years, something 99.99999% of people here didn't do.  I don't appreciate someone saying if I would be squirmy about someone else when I had a relationship with the man.  So yes, I'm going to bring up the truth and respond.

Don't like it, put me on ignore.   Al was great to me and my wife.  He coached in a different era, different rules, different expectations.   The world has changed, every coach knows the rules inside and out now...

If you want my views on Bobby Knight and the year working with him I'm happy to oblige, though I was only a grad assistant so not near the contact.  You just let me know.  I'm here for you.

[GGGG]

 

Well, someone said I would be squirmy about Al.  Well, I got to work with Al for three years, something 99.99999% of people here didn't do.  I don't appreciate someone saying if I would be squirmy about someone else when I had a relationship with the man.  So yes, I'm going to bring up the truth and respond.

So the type of players Buzz brought in made you feel "squirmy," but when its pointed out that Al brought in many similar players, your response is "he was great to me and my wife."

Not only does that level of logic lack self-awareness like Lenny says, but it is superficial and shallow.

[Herman Cain]

I enjoyed immensely working with Al for several years as the Executive producer of the tv and radio network.  Al was great to me, my wife, etc.

Different times, I'm glad the NCAA put a lot of regs and rules in place as a result of what was going on at many places...UCLA, Louisville, Kentucky, Long Beach State, etc....and yes...MU, too.


Back in those days the rules weren't laid out well, way too many loopholes, low education and enforcement.  That isn't the case today.

Al fished the same ponds that everyone else was fishing back in the day. He played by the same rules. The reality was he was second greatest coach in college basketball history , only topped by Wooden. Pound for Pound , given our resources he was the best and got an incredible amount out of the talent he had. ( the way they used to compare Sugar Ray Robinson to Joe Louis. )

Great coaches get great results no matter what the era.

Michigan State for example recruited some  truly exceptional players at the same time Al was at MU guys like Ralph Simpson, Terry Furlow, Greg Kelser etc)and Gus Ganakas who was the coach at MSU at the time had no clue how to manage those kids, the inmates ran the asylum there and they had a lousy record as a result.

[MU82]

If you want my views on Bobby Knight and the year working with him I'm happy to oblige

Did he choke you? If not, it's not worth telling.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Al fished the same ponds that everyone else was fishing back in the day. He played by the same rules. The reality was he was second greatest coach in college basketball history , only topped by Wooden. Pound for Pound , given our resources he was the best and got an incredible amount out of the talent he had. ( the way they used to compare Sugar Ray Robinson to Joe Louis. )

Great coaches get great results no matter what the era.

Michigan State for example recruited some  truly exceptional players at the same time Al was at MU guys like Ralph Simpson, Terry Furlow, Greg Kelser etc)and Gus Ganakas who was the coach at MSU at the time had no clue how to manage those kids, the inmates ran the asylum there and they had a lousy record as a result.

He was a great personality, for sure.

Coach...define coach.  I think he was an amazing general manager that knew personalities, could connect with people like few others.  As far as X's and O's, harder to judge.  He was better than he gave himself credit for, but I think he was right when he said he just wasn't the tactician.  That's not a knock, he knew what he excelled at. 

Blessed to have known him and worked with him.  Great great memories that I will never forget until the day I die.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So the type of players Buzz brought in made you feel "squirmy," but when its pointed out that Al brought in many similar players, your response is "he was great to me and my wife."

Not only does that level of logic lack self-awareness like Lenny says, but it is superficial and shallow.

Lenny is on ignore, so he might as well be in a forest by himself as far as I'm concerned. 

Now, MU's world has changed dramatically since 1970's but some alumni are still stuck in a lost century and a just win baby world, which also no longer exists.  I don't lack logic at all on this, I just understand the realities of the world we are in and the expectations that go with that world...while others are stuck in a time warp and making absurd comparisons that no longer apply.

Nothing shallow about that.  The world changed, guys like Lenny forgot to change the calendar.  I could also wax poetic about a lot of people from the 70's or 60's or whatever that were great leaders, etc, but their approaches today would be frowned upon to the nth degree.  You know this to be 100% true.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Did he choke you? If not, it's not worth telling.

Nope, wrote me a few letters and notes which I will retain and pass on to my heirs. 

Try to keep politics out of this stuff Mike, we would like to keep you around.

[rocky_warrior]

Try to keep politics out of this stuff Mike, we would like to keep you around.

Since I'm sure someday you'll use this as proof of hypocrisy here, please feel free to PM me the reason that a RMK choking joke is political.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Since I'm sure someday you'll use this as proof of hypocrisy here, please feel free to PM me the reason that a RMK choking joke is political.

Ok

[Herman Cain]

He was a great personality, for sure.

Coach...define coach.  I think he was an amazing general manager that knew personalities, could connect with people like few others.  As far as X's and O's, harder to judge.  He was better than he gave himself credit for, but I think he was right when he said he just wasn't the tactician.  That's not a knock, he knew what he excelled at. 

Blessed to have known him and worked with him.  Great great memories that I will never forget until the day I die.

Understand personalities and moving them to a common objective  is the hallmark of a great leader and a great coach.  As far as  Xs and Os go, I can tell you this, opponents were genuinely afraid of our teams and we won most games before they started through sheer intimidation.  As the coach would say, teams are an extension of the coaches personality.  Al also knew how to work the refs as well as any coach. As you pointed out he was generous in many ways and that reflected directly on his ability to get players to buy into his program of shared sacrifice. 

Xs and O's are sometimes overrated. I still vividly remember sitting in Market Square arena after we lost to Miami of Ohio with an incredible line up of players and our coach who was supposedly the X and O king. I realized then it would not ever be the same.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Understand personalities and moving them to a common objective  is the hallmark of a great leader and a great coach.  As far as  Xs and Os go, I can tell you this, opponents were genuinely afraid of our teams and we won most games before they started through sheer intimidation.  As the coach would say, teams are an extension of the coaches personality.  Al also knew how to work the refs as well as any coach. As you pointed out he was generous in many ways and that reflected directly on his ability to get players to buy into his program of shared sacrifice. 

Xs and O's are sometimes overrated. I still vividly remember sitting in Market Square arena after we lost to Miami of Ohio with an incredible line up of players and our coach who was supposedly the X and O king. I realized then it would not ever be the same.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you said except to say Al was better for having Hank in that role, and Hank without an Al was missing an important piece.

They were a nice match together. Playing to each other's strengths and making up for their weaknesses.  In my opinion and in what Al said publicly and privately often.

[HoopsterBC]

yep, hard to be a Jew to go to MU, as I am one.

[Lennys Tap]

Nothing shallow about that.  The world changed, guys like Lenny forgot to change the calendar.  I could also wax poetic about a lot of people from the 70's or 60's or whatever that were great leaders, etc, but their approaches today would be frowned upon to the nth degree.  You know this to be 100% true.

This may be your funniest post ever. The guy who pines for the 50s, the back of the bus and loves him some redskins telling me to turn the calendar. LOL.

Things change, usually for the good - and in most cases (and all of those concerning human rights/dignity) I'm all in. Want to know something that hasn't changed? The overdog, hypocritical NCAA that you so love (and Al hated). Your thoughts on traditionals, Jucos and the alleged devaluation of your precious Marquette degree would have turned Al's stomach. Adolph Rupp would have been more simpatico with your world view.

[dgies9156]

Some thoughts about Al's recruiting:

1) Winning begets winners. Win consistently and the best players find you. That's why in the 1960s and 1970s, the best teams were UCLA, Marquette, North Carolina and even Kentucky. Al was winning and he was colorful about it. Guys would put up with Milwaukee in the winter because they knew Marquette would win and whatever exposure went to college in the 1970s, they'd get it. That's why Duke, North Carolina, Louisville, Kentucky and Michigan State draw 'em in today.

2) I don't know if Al "cheated" or not. I somehow don't think he had to. Again, he won. The track record spoke for itself. Yeah, a coach at Jacksonville, Western Kentucky, East Carolina or Dayton might have to, but I don't think Marquette was one of these small majors, even then.

3) Al was colorful. He was akin that nutty, disorganized professor everyone on campus wanted at least once. We all had them and we all for some reason were drawn to them.

4) Our guys went to the NBA. Chones, Thompson, Lucas, Ellis, Lee, Tatum. Great track record.

[brewcity77]

What's going on in here?

[HoopsterBC]

Some thoughts about Al's recruiting:

1) Winning begets winners. Win consistently and the best players find you. That's why in the 1960s and 1970s, the best teams were UCLA, Marquette, North Carolina and even Kentucky. Al was winning and he was colorful about it. Guys would put up with Milwaukee in the winter because they knew Marquette would win and whatever exposure went to college in the 1970s, they'd get it. That's why Duke, North Carolina, Louisville, Kentucky and Michigan State draw 'em in today.

2) I don't know if Al "cheated" or not. I somehow don't think he had to. Again, he won. The track record spoke for itself. Yeah, a coach at Jacksonville, Western Kentucky, East Carolina or Dayton might have to, but I don't think Marquette was one of these small majors, even then.

3) Al was colorful. He was akin that nutty, disorganized professor everyone on campus wanted at least once. We all had them and we all for some reason were drawn to them.

4) Our guys went to the NBA. Chones, Thompson, Lucas, Ellis, Lee, Tatum. Great track record.

Al did what all the coaches were doing back then.  No different then Lefty Drissell, Jerry Tarkanian, John Wooden, Denny Crum and others.   You had to play the game
and that meant Alumni had big pocketbooks.  Wooden was the worst even though he admitted he did not know what was going on.  It happpend.  Back then MU for
10 years was a Top 5 program. 

[79Warrior]

Al fished the same ponds that everyone else was fishing back in the day. He played by the same rules. The reality was he was second greatest coach in college basketball history , only topped by Wooden. Pound for Pound , given our resources he was the best and got an incredible amount out of the talent he had. ( the way they used to compare Sugar Ray Robinson to Joe Louis. )

Great coaches get great results no matter what the era.

Michigan State for example recruited some  truly exceptional players at the same time Al was at MU guys like Ralph Simpson, Terry Furlow, Greg Kelser etc)and Gus Ganakas who was the coach at MSU at the time had no clue how to manage those kids, the inmates ran the asylum there and they had a lousy record as a result.

Love Al, but absolutely no way is he number two in CBB history. Maybe the best personality on the sidelines, but not second best coach. Not even close.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Al did what all the coaches were doing back then.  No different then Lefty Drissell, Jerry Tarkanian, John Wooden, Denny Crum and others.   You had to play the game
and that meant Alumni had big pocketbooks.  Wooden was the worst even though he admitted he did not know what was going on.  It happpend.  Back then MU for
10 years was a Top 5 program.

A lot of stuff happened back in those times, some known by coaches, some ignored, some chose not to get involved.  Times have changed for the most part. Certainly still goes on to some extent, but it is harder to get away with it now and education about what is and isn't allowed is clear as a bell.  That wasn't always the case back then where interpretation of the rules was often left to the schools.

[Dawson Rental]

Al fished the same ponds that everyone else was fishing back in the day. He played by the same rules. The reality was he was second greatest coach in college basketball history , only topped by Wooden. Pound for Pound , given our resources he was the best and got an incredible amount out of the talent he had. ( the way they used to compare Sugar Ray Robinson to Joe Louis. )

Great coaches get great results no matter what the era.

Michigan State for example recruited some  truly exceptional players at the same time Al was at MU guys like Ralph Simpson, Terry Furlow, Greg Kelser etc)and Gus Ganakas who was the coach at MSU at the time had no clue how to manage those kids, the inmates ran the asylum there and they had a lousy record as a result.

I recall reading in a number of places that Al left when he did because he realized that his era was coming to an end and he foresaw that his ability to compete would erode.

[Dawson Rental]

He was a great personality, for sure.

Coach...define coach.  I think he was an amazing general manager that knew personalities, could connect with people like few others.  As far as X's and O's, harder to judge.  He was better than he gave himself credit for, but I think he was right when he said he just wasn't the tactician.  That's not a knock, he knew what he excelled at.

Blessed to have known him and worked with him.  Great great memories that I will never forget until the day I die.

And he had the good sense to cover himself by keeping a Hank Raymonds on when he got the job.  IIRC, he was not shy about crediting Hank's contribution, either.

edit: Reading further down the thread, I see you covered this point well.