Long Form on Jae

[Marcus92]

As for Wojo, I disagree that he inherited a dumpster fire. You can look to the 2-16 ACC Va Tech team Buzz inherited and see what a dumpster fire looks like.  Wojo oddly invested in one-year eligibility guys - Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson -  his first year on the job, when he had 3 very talented underclassmen sitting on the bench - yet started freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of those talented 3.  That in turn led to us losing two of the thre, being less experienced this year, and once again missing the NIT with a roster of 7, Top 100 players.

Sure, we can say the jury is out on Wojo as a coach - that's fair.  Yet, if you were to take Buzz's first two years at MU and Wojo's - who gave you greater belief that he'd get the job done?  I know personally, I felt MUCH more confident in Buzz.

What's the intent of posts like this?

Yes, Buzz Williams accomplished some great things at Marquette. Yes, Wojo has yet to do the same. So what?

Buzz ain't coming back. If that's your hope, or you're pining for past glory, I think you need a reality check. His Elite Eight run was amazing, but Wojo is our coach now and for the foreseeable future. I don't care any more about Buzz than 350 other head coaches not at Marquette.

If your goal is to establish that Buzz is a better coach than Wojo — assuming that's even possible — again, what's the point? You just need to be right? Or do you have something against Wojo as our coach? Because he's doing a way better job right now than the guy who quit on Marquette.

I get skepticism. Walk the walk, show me, prove it. If you won't be convinced that Wojo is a good coach until he makes the Elite Eight like Buzz did, so be it. That's your prerogative. But where skepticism challenges and questions, you've outright stated that Wojo isn't a good coach. Statements like this suggest a deliberate attempt to tear down the current program.

I can't think of any other explanation for your obsessive need to constantly criticize a second-year head coach — one who played and worked for college basketball's winningest coach, one with an impeccable resume (short of NCAA tourney experience), and one who's brought in some of the best talent in the history of the program.

[brewcity77]

EDIT: Screw it. Marcus said it perfectly. Better to just move on than try to relive conversations that should have died 18 months ago.

[Taint]

What's the intent of posts like this?

Yes, Buzz Williams accomplished some great things at Marquette. Yes, Wojo has yet to do the same. So what?

Buzz ain't coming back. If that's your hope, or you're pining for past glory, I think you need a reality check. His Elite Eight run was amazing, but Wojo is our coach now and for the foreseeable future. I don't care any more about Buzz than 350 other head coaches not at Marquette.

If your goal is to establish that Buzz is a better coach than Wojo — assuming that's even possible — again, what's the point? You just need to be right? Or do you have something against Wojo as our coach? Because he's doing a way better job right now than the guy who quit on Marquette.

I get skepticism. Walk the walk, show me, prove it. If you won't be convinced that Wojo is a good coach until he makes the Elite Eight like Buzz did, so be it. That's your prerogative. But where skepticism challenges and questions, you've outright stated that Wojo isn't a good coach. Statements like this suggest a deliberate attempt to tear down the current program.

I can't think of any other explanation for your obsessive need to constantly criticize a second-year head coach — one who played and worked for college basketball's winningest coach, one with an impeccable resume (short of NCAA tourney experience), and one who's brought in some of the best talent in the history of the program.

You mad bro?

The point of the post is to be objective about the reality of our program currently.  When someone says Wojo inherited a dumpster fire, that is at best debatable, yet I'd argue simply false.

As for objective criticism of our coach, its borne out of a desire that MU be a winning basketball program.

I'm actually blown away by the level of rationalization I read from some here trying to justify the performance thus far.

Recruiting = A
Coaching and Personnel Management:  C- (at best)

EDIT: Screw it. Marcus said it perfectly. Better to just move on than try to relive conversations that should have died 18 months ago.

The conversation of Wojo's coaching performance is such that we now have 18 more months and 2 seasons of data.  Why should discussing the performance thus far die?

[Marcus92]

I honestly don't get the "who's the better coach" fixation on this board (Crean vs. Williams vs. Wojo).

Any coach who's followed Al McGuire at Marquette pales in comparison. Measured against his standard for success, we haven't had a good coach in 40 years.

The broader world of sports fandom is defined by similar "who's better" arguments (Wilt vs. Russell, Favre vs. Rodgers, Babe Ruth vs. every power hitter since, Jordan vs. Lebron). It's generally a pointless but occasionally fun and pretty harmless exercise.

Here, it often feels like such arguments come with an agenda and are wielded as weapons. One of my least favorite aspects about MUScoop.

[Marcus92]

You mad bro?

The point of the post is to be objective about the reality of our program currently.  When someone says Wojo inherited a dumpster fire, that is at best debatable, yet I'd argue simply false.

As for objective criticism of our coach, its borne out of a desire that MU be a winning basketball program.

I'm actually blown away by the level of rationalization I read from some here trying to justify the performance thus far.

Recruiting = A
Coaching and Personnel Management:  C- (at best)

The conversation of Wojo's coaching performance is such that we now have 18 more months and 2 seasons of data.  Why should discussing the performance thus far die?

Not mad at all. You've answered my questions. You're a skeptic. You believe that your skepticism gives you an objective viewpoint, and your role as an objective critic is important to being a fan — and the future success of Marquette basketball.

To me, what you see as objective evaluation or criticism can come across as undermining our current coach and the program. To say that Wojo isn't a good coach implies that Marquette never should have hired him in the first place, or that he doesn't even deserve to remain in his position.

I might argue that there's an inherent conflict between being a critic and a fan, but it's an argument I don't really care about. I think I've said enough.

[BM1090]

O/U 48 more hours remaining in Taint's Scoop life?

[Loose Cannon]

O/U 48 more hours remaining in Taint's Scoop life?

A Rose by any other name........

[brewcity77]

The conversation of Wojo's coaching performance is such that we now have 18 more months and 2 seasons of data.  Why should discussing the performance thus far die?

That's not the conversation you're trying to have. You're trying to have a Buzz vs Wojo penis measuring contest. We might as well debate Derrick vs Dawson.

[Taint]

Not mad at all. You've answered my questions. You're a skeptic. You believe that your skepticism gives you an objective viewpoint, and your role as an objective critic is important to being a fan — and the future success of Marquette basketball.

To me, what you see as objective evaluation or criticism can come across as undermining our current coach and the program. To say that Wojo isn't a good coach implies that Marquette never should have hired him in the first place, or that he doesn't even deserve to remain in his position.

I might argue that there's an inherent conflict between being a critic and a fan, but it's an argument I don't really care about. I think I've said enough.

Good post Marcus.

But be clear:  I haven't said MU should have never hired Wojo, nor have I posted MU should fire Wojo.  Nor do I believe Wojo should be fired..AT ALL.  I think he should get at 2 more years - but if we aren't in the NCAA at the end of the 2018 season - really think at that time MU would need to move on. He, along with Stan Johnson, are doing a hell of a job recruiting - and that is the first step required to be a successful coach.

I've simply been disappointed in the in game coaching, as well as how he's handle the minute allocation the last couple of years.  Hopefully Wojo improves in those areas. 

[Loose Cannon]

Just to change the direction a bit:

Taint:

Who was your favorite  MU player last year?
     
  and

Who do you think will help the most next year?

             Thanks.

[Newsdreams]

Darn Scoop is Ners Tainted again   

[Marcus92]

Good post Marcus.

But be clear:  I haven't said MU should have never hired Wojo, nor have I posted MU should fire Wojo.  Nor do I believe Wojo should be fired..AT ALL.  I think he should get at 2 more years - but if we aren't in the NCAA at the end of the 2018 season - really think at that time MU would need to move on. He, along with Stan Johnson, are doing a hell of a job recruiting - and that is the first step required to be a successful coach.

I've simply been disappointed in the in game coaching, as well as how he's handle the minute allocation the last couple of years.  Hopefully Wojo improves in those areas.

No disagreement here. We didn't hire Wojo for 7th place finishes. Everybody on this board wants and expects us to compete for Big East titles and extended NCAA runs. Just don't see any worth in comparing him to a past coach under a different administration with different players.

[4everwarriors]

Can't judge coaches 'til 5 seasons passes, ai na?

[brewcity77]

So...nice Jae Crowder article 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

What's the intent of posts like this?

It's Ners being Ners, constantly bitching and moaning and recycling the same arguments a million times.  Nothing ever dies with him.  Every single thread ends up with spewing the same old tired sh*t, no matter what the thread is actually about.

This place is far, far better when he is banned.

[Taint]

So...nice Jae Crowder article 

Was a great article on Jae.  He's a great representative for MU, just as is Jimmy Butler.  Just a damn shame that Marquette admin decided it is "above" admitting a kid like Jae.  Hopefully, Lovell gets that reversed.  Lovell definitely seems to be all in on the basketball program which is encouraging.  There is no reason to handcuff our coach unnecessarily as did the BOT/Pilarz - particularly not when you are not a P5 school, AND you are located in Milwaukee - both of which present some inherent challenges in the recruiting game.

[wadesworld]

This seems to be a little obtuse.  I guess I don't understand - Henry can come back but Jae can't?  Does Jae Crowder no longer stand a chance to graduate from Marquette?  Jae can't come back for classes (if for some reason he would want to after likely earning over $75-$100M in his NBA career) and pursue an MU degree - as could Henry?

As for Wojo, I disagree that he inherited a dumpster fire. You can look to the 2-16 ACC Va Tech team Buzz inherited and see what a dumpster fire looks like.  Wojo oddly invested in one-year eligibility guys - Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson -  his first year on the job, when he had 3 very talented underclassmen sitting on the bench - yet started freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of those talented 3.  That in turn led to us losing two of the thre, being less experienced this year, and once again missing the NIT with a roster of 7, Top 100 players.

Sure, we can say the jury is out on Wojo as a coach - that's fair.  Yet, if you were to take Buzz's first two years at MU and Wojo's - who gave you greater belief that he'd get the job done?  I know personally, I felt MUCH more confident in Buzz.

No matter how hard I try to read your posts with an open mind, the only conclusion that I come to is that you still have no idea when a comma is necessary and when it is not.  Or when - whatever is meant by - these sym-bols - is necessary.  It's kind - of - like trying to read - a post - by Dodds.

[Taint]

Just to change the direction a bit:

Taint:

Who was your favorite  MU player last year?
     
  and

Who do you think will help the most next year?

             Thanks.

Favorite player:  Tossup between Traci and JJJ.  Both were underutilized last season IMO.

Who will help most next year?  Tough question.  If we land a grad transfer PF, that would be what the team needs most.  If we don't - I'd go with Reinhardt - a proven contributor at a high major program with respectable Usage and eFG%.  Howard is a great prospect, yet because I am bullish on Traci Carter - not sure I see Howard as the PG of choice.  Think Duane Wilson has his work cutout for him as I see both Howard and Rowsey primarily playing off the ball where Duane is also at his best.

Having said all of this, I really don't see the logic in bringing Reinhardt into the fold when you have JJJ and Cheatham who SHOULD eat major guard minutes.  Then again, given how short of leash Wojo has had with JJJ - it is possible Reinhardt could eat into JJJ's minutes - which would be a total and complete shame.  When you consider Sandy Cohen played more minutes last season than JJJ - it isn't beyond the realm of possibility to think Wojo once again will inexplicably allocate playing time to guys other than his best players - just as he's done in each of his first two years as coach.

[Taint]

No matter how hard I try to read your posts with an open mind, the only conclusion that I come to is that you still have no idea when a comma is necessary and when it is not.  Or when - whatever is meant by - these sym-bols - is necessary.  It's kind - of - like trying to read - a post - by Dodds.

Thanks Wades.  Grammar is not my strong point.  Sorry.  I'm much better being predictive with regard to MU basketball as it relates to the talent/lack thereof of both our players and coaches.

[rocket surgeon]

No matter how hard I try to read your posts with an open mind, the only conclusion that I come to is that you still have no idea when a comma is necessary and when it is not.  Or when - whatever is meant by - these sym-bols - is necessary.  It's kind - of - like trying to read - a post - by Dodds.

hey, easy on my new bff.  now taint, i need to work with you on when/when not to capitalize


   on another note, i'm sure MU will have a very short memory when jae's and jimmy's checks to the blue n gold fund start rollin' in Heyn'er?  i agree with the post re: graduation potential(taint?) so HE is brought in knowing he is probably a 1 or 2 and done, while jae, jimmy, et.al. are given the academic procto exam. please please don't even think about the "R" card.  all of these guys will and or can graduate if they choose to come back and do the time.  note, davidson will not retire steph's jersey unless he comes back and graduates, which is maintaining an excellent standard and not setting a precedent, regardless of who you are

[keefe]

The college degree is the one real tangible payment that college athletes get for all they do for their universities. You take a student who isn't ready academically to benefit from that payment and the university is taking advantage of a kid for his athletic ability.

What the hell are you talking about. I know for a fact that Sam Worthen and Oliver Lee both said that sharing a room at McCormick and having access to Chez Saga three times a day was payment enough for their services.

[Loose Cannon]

Favorite player:  Tossup between Traci and JJJ.  Both were underutilized last season IMO.

Who will help most next year?  Tough question.  If we land a grad transfer PF, that would be what the team needs most.  If we don't - I'd go with Reinhardt - a proven contributor at a high major program with respectable Usage and eFG%.  Howard is a great prospect, yet because I am bullish on Traci Carter - not sure I see Howard as the PG of choice.  Think Duane Wilson has his work cutout for him as I see both Howard and Rowsey primarily playing off the ball where Duane is also at his best.

Having said all of this, I really don't see the logic in bringing Reinhardt into the fold when you have JJJ and Cheatham who SHOULD eat major guard minutes.  Then again, given how short of leash Wojo has had with JJJ - it is possible Reinhardt could eat into JJJ's minutes - which would be a total and complete shame.  When you consider Sandy Cohen played more minutes last season than JJJ - it isn't beyond the realm of possibility to think Wojo once again will inexplicably allocate playing time to guys other thn his best players - just as he's done in each of his first two years as coach.

I like Traci at the point too, I have seen glimpses of his leadership, and his shooting skill I think will not be a problem (He seem very good at the line at crunch time).  I think his major improvement must come from his decision  making, (Especially looking to pass much more quickly) once that happens the other things fall in place.

Regarding Katlin, if I understand you, its a good recruiting move because Wojo does not  see that giving JJ and HC more minutes at the guard position would have make it unnecessary.  Reviewing the MU official stats  HC had 29.5 and JJ had 23.7 (of note Sandy had 23.3). What increase to these numbers would you consider?

Also are you surprised how things have played out for JJ and that he is still at MU today?

[Taint]

I like Traci at the point too, I have seen glimpses of his leadership, and his shooting skill I think will not be a problem (He seem very good at the line at crunch time).  I think his major improvement must come from his decision  making, (Especially looking to pass much more quickly) once that happens the other things fall in place.

Regarding Katlin, if I understand you, its a good recruiting move because Wojo does not  see that giving JJ and HC more minutes at the guard position would have make it unnecessary.  Reviewing the MU official stats  HC had 29.5 and JJ had 23.7 (of note Sandy had 23.3). What increase to these numbers would you consider?

Also are you surprised how things have played out for JJ and that he is still at MU today?

Traci will go down as a VERY good MU point guard when all is said and done.  Felt he was our toughest player last year - a junkyard dog who plays incredibly hard.  Assist rate is off the charts.  High steal rate.  Turnovers will reduce, yet I personally don't mind turnovers committed out of aggression.  I too am not worried about Traci's shooting.  He'll be fine.  Felt Traci should have played 30+ last season.  Same for JJJ.

Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

[Loose Cannon]

Traci will gone down as a VERY good MU point guard when all is said and done.  Felt he was our toughest player last year - a junkyard dog who plays incredibly hard.  Assist rate is off the charts.  High steal rate.  Turnovers will reduce, yet I personally don't mind turnovers committed out of aggression.  I too am not worried about Traci's shooting.  He'll be fine.  Felt Traci should have played 30+ last season.  Same for JJJ.

Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

Thanks

[Herman Cain]

Traci will gone down as a VERY good MU point guard when all is said and done.  Felt he was our toughest player last year - a junkyard dog who plays incredibly hard.  Assist rate is off the charts.  High steal rate.  Turnovers will reduce, yet I personally don't mind turnovers committed out of aggression.  I too am not worried about Traci's shooting.  He'll be fine.  Felt Traci should have played 30+ last season.  Same for JJJ.

Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

I agree with this analysis.