UNC Investigation

[Groin_pull]

All this uncertainty surrounds the future of UNC's program yet they have the #10 ranked recruiting class. Don't these recruits understand they may be signing with a program about to get whacked by the NCAA? Are they just verbally committing until the punishment comes down? Is there some sort of side agreement to let them out of the LOI if severe punishment? Are they counting on the NCAA releasing all UNC players once the punishment is handed down? Someone give me a clue here!

Then we're all supposed to feel sorry for these guys when the hammer falls. Oh, it's so unfair...punishing the innocent...blah, blah, blah. These kids know exactly what they're walking into. This is not a surprise. You sign with UNC, you deal with the ramifications. Save your tears and go whine to someone else.

[Herman Cain]

NCAA passed new rules on the Academic issues raised in the UNC case.

  http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25547495/unc-scandal-forces-ncaa-to-redefine-its-academic-misconduct-policy

The real problem here is that if they come down hard on UNC, they will have to come down hard on everyone else's underwater basket weaving classes. UNC is the tip of the iceberg.

[connie]

NCAA passed new rules on the Academic issues raised in the UNC case.

  http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25547495/unc-scandal-forces-ncaa-to-redefine-its-academic-misconduct-policy

The real problem here is that if they come down hard on UNC, they will have to come down hard on everyone else's underwater basket weaving classes. UNC is the tip of the iceberg.

Again, I just don't believe this is true.  All colleges have their "easy" classes.  But they HAVE classes.  Here, the University set up a system where there WAS NO CLASS. I challenge you to find another situation like this.  They may be there, but I haven't seen anything approaching the breadth or scope of this academic fraud.   Not that I have faith in the NCAA to do anything serious, but this turns the idea of "institutional control" on its head.

[Herman Cain]

Again, I just don't believe this is true.  All colleges have their "easy" classes.  But they HAVE classes.  Here, the University set up a system where there WAS NO CLASS. I challenge you to find another situation like this.  They may be there, but I haven't seen anything approaching the breadth or scope of this academic fraud.   Not that I have faith in the NCAA to do anything serious, but this turns the idea of "institutional control" on its head.

They had a class. I know lots of people who took it. The issue was there was no basis for the grades. 

[dgies9156]

My best semester (by far) at MU was straight As but for a B in a Horton Roe class - too many cut classes.

The college I was in generally would not let us take Horton Roe. Something about academic integrity.

The only way you could get anything other than an "A" from ole Horton is to oversleep.

Somebody spent too much time at the 'Lanche!

[keefe]

The college I was in generally would not let us take Horton Roe. Something about academic integrity.

The only way you could get anything other than an "A" from ole Horton is to oversleep.

Somebody spent too much time at the 'Lanche!

The problem with Horton Roe was his classes were at 0800 and he actually took attendance. I mean, there were mornings where, after leaving Real Chili after a long night at the Lanche, it almost didn't make sense to hit the rack and just power through til 1000.

[Lennys Tap]

The college I was in generally would not let us take Horton Roe. Something about academic integrity.

The only way you could get anything other than an "A" from ole Horton is to oversleep.

Somebody spent too much time at the 'Lanche!

Guilty as charged.

[Dawson Rental]

Did this go back 20 years?  Cause Smith retired 20 years ago.

And Paterno was told from an eye witness than he had a child molester in Sandusky but still let him hang around the program.

I think that you are being unfair to Paterno.  IIRC, Paterno and Sandusky didn't see eye to eye on regarding the football team, but Sandusky was protected from dismissal by Paterno by higher ups at Penn State because of the success of Sandusky's defenses.  When Paterno heard something, he reported it up the chain which was probably all he could do short of going public.  There was a massive failure at Penn State, but I think it was higher up than Paterno and it involved Paterno having his hands tied.

[GooooMarquette]

I think that you are being unfair to Paterno.  IIRC, Paterno and Sandusky didn't see eye to eye on regarding the football team, but Sandusky was protected from dismissal by Paterno by higher ups at Penn State because of the success of Sandusky's defenses.  When Paterno heard something, he reported it up the chain which was probably all he could do short of going public.  There was a massive failure at Penn State, but I think it was higher up than Paterno and it involved Paterno having his hands tied.

I think it's naive to think someone as powerful as Paterno could have his "hands tied" by anyone at PSU.  When he learned that one of his coaches was doing something terribly wrong and immoral, telling an administrator and then just forgetting the issue was criminally negligent on his part.

[Loose Cannon]

I think it's naive to think someone as powerful as Paterno could have his "hands tied" by anyone at PSU.  When he learned that one of his coaches was doing something terribly wrong and immoral, telling an administrator and then just forgetting the issue was criminally negligent on his part.

Yep, I don't know much of what happened, but I remember an investigator saying  "W hen ever I start to feel sorry about them, I have this burned in vision of a boy 10 or 11 laying on the shower floor in the fetal position crying."

 For all the years, this when on, I'm painting them all with a Broad Brush.

[mu03eng]

I think it's naive to think someone as powerful as Paterno could have his "hands tied" by anyone at PSU.  When he learned that one of his coaches was doing something terribly wrong and immoral, telling an administrator and then just forgetting the issue was criminally negligent on his part.

Sorry, but the "Almighty Paterno" narrative just doesn't wash with reality. A) He was legally bared from taking further action once it was reported to his superiors and campus police, it would have been tampering to do otherwise. B) Spanier(university president) was actively reducing Paterno's power in the years leading up to 2012. Spanier in fact overruled Paterno on Sandusky's emeritus status, Paterno didn't see the point in him hanging around (at that point there were no known issues). C) Sandusky wasn't one of "his coaches" at the time or generally, it's well known that Paterno and Sandusky didn't see eye to eye on football and Sandusky was retired at the time Mike McQueary reported the incident.

[Dawson Rental]

I am positive that we are in agreement that destroying young lives through sexual abuse is a particularly heinous act.  However, that does not mean that the facts regarding the limits on Paterno's options to deal with the situation should be ignored.  Thank you for providing the specifics.  Given the gravity of the offense, the importance of placing blame where it is most deserved is paramount.

Sorry, but the "Almighty Paterno" narrative just doesn't wash with reality. A) He was legally bared from taking further action once it was reported to his superiors and campus police, it would have been tampering to do otherwise. B) Spanier(university president) was actively reducing Paterno's power in the years leading up to 2012. Spanier in fact overruled Paterno on Sandusky's emeritus status, Paterno didn't see the point in him hanging around (at that point there were no known issues). C) Sandusky wasn't one of "his coaches" at the time or generally, it's well known that Paterno and Sandusky didn't see eye to eye on football and Sandusky was retired at the time Mike McQueary reported the incident.

[keefe]

I am positive that we are in agreement that destroying young lives through sexual abuse is a particularly heinous act.  However, that does not mean that the facts regarding the limits on Paterno's options to deal with the situation should be ignored.  Thank you for providing the specifics.  Given the gravity of the offense, the importance of placing blame where it is most deserved is paramount.

Regardless of where the buck stopped if Paterno knew what was going on he had a moral responsibility to put an end to it. Kicking the ball upstairs then shrugging one's shoulders does not absolve one of their moral responsibility to address wrong. And in this case, it wasn't wrong - wrong is a speeding ticket - it was profound evil.

If Paterno knew what was happening at Penn State in the football facilities he had an ethical imperative to stop it.

[Coleman]

Regardless of where the buck stopped if Paterno knew what was going on he had a moral responsibility to put an end to it. Kicking the ball upstairs then shrugging one's shoulders does not absolve one of their moral responsibility to address wrong. And in this case, it wasn't wrong - wrong is a speeding ticket - it was profound evil.

If Paterno knew what was happening at Penn State in the football facilities he had an ethical imperative to stop it.

This.

[GGGG]

The idea that Paterno wasn't powerful enough to get rid of Sandusky is laughable.  It is the line used by his apologists all the time.  I have a (non-Kool Aid drinking) good friend who went to school there and then worked there for a bit.  Paterno was the most powerful person at the University and in State College.  If he wanted Sandusky gone, Sandusky would have been gone.

[Loose Cannon]

The idea that Paterno wasn't powerful enough to get rid of Sandusky is laughable.  It is the line used by his apologists all the time.  I have a (non-Kool Aid drinking) good friend who went to school there and then worked there for a bit.  Paterno was the most powerful person at the University and in State College.  If he wanted Sandusky gone, Sandusky would have been gone.

AMEN!

[mu03eng]

The idea that Paterno wasn't powerful enough to get rid of Sandusky is laughable.  It is the line used by his apologists all the time.  I have a (non-Kool Aid drinking) good friend who went to school there and then worked there for a bit.  Paterno was the most powerful person at the University and in State College.  If he wanted Sandusky gone, Sandusky would have been gone.

I have family that went to school there and were heavily involved in the alumni association and BoT, and on campus repeatedly....Paterno was revered and given wide power prior to the Spanier administration, that power became more reduced after 2008, in fact some on the BoT and the administration were working to get Paterno out as early as 2006.

It is documented that Paterno preferred Sandusky not be around the program after he retired (not for any suspicion but because they just didn't like each other). Spanier overrulled him, no idea why, but he did. Spanier granted Sandusky emeritus status which allowed him free reign, what was Paterno going to do exactly? Until McQueary reported the incident nobody had suspicions that would have triggered PSU to be worried. The Pennsylvania department of justice investigated an incident involving Sandusky and a boy from his charity, cleared him of wrong doing and never bothered to tell the university.

A lot of stuff went wrong with the whole incident, some probably that shouldn't have happened even at the time, some with the benefit of hindsight seem obvious. Paterno himself said he wishes he had done more in hindsight. Paterno had blame in not (despite it being illegal) following up and making sure something was done, but let's not act like he could be the judge, jury, and executioner in this situation. This was a legal matter and should have been handled through that process, it wasn't and people need to look at that as well.

I'd remind everyone that there was an issue at MU involving a basketball player and a sex crime allegation that Buzz got in the middle of that could have had serious consequences (still could) for the university. Case of the damned if you do, damned if you don'ts.

[Dawson Rental]

Regardless of where the buck stopped if Paterno knew what was going on he had a moral responsibility to put an end to it. Kicking the ball upstairs then shrugging one's shoulders does not absolve one of their moral responsibility to address wrong. And in this case, it wasn't wrong - wrong is a speeding ticket - it was profound evil.

If Paterno knew what was happening at Penn State in the football facilities he had an ethical imperative to stop it.

But he didn't know.  Clearly this conduct by Sandusky was occurring when the facilities were not in use by the team or Sandusky would never have had the privacy he needed to act.  Paterno witnessed nothing, he got a report which he passed on to the proper channels, his superiors and the campus police.  Both of these channels had the ability and resources to both investigate the charge and - at least in the case of the Penn State administration - to deny Sandusky use of Penn State facilities until such an investigation was concluded.  Paterno had already been overruled by the administration regarding giving Sandusky access to Penn State's athletic facilities.  Further action by Paterno at this point would have been insubordinate and illegal by Paterno, and it would have required Paterno to make two assumptions which at the time must have seemed incredible:
1) that Sandusky a man who old enough to have reached retirement could do such a thing in spite of the fact that he had no record (known to Paterno) of such prior conduct, and 2) that the Penn State administration could choose to ignore such egregious conduct occurring in its athletic facilities.

Heinous acts of omission occurred here.  I believe that they all occurred after Paterno did the right thing and passed on the information that he was given to (what should have been) the proper authorities.

[LloydsLegs]

Regardless of where the buck stopped if Paterno knew what was going on he had a moral responsibility to put an end to it. Kicking the ball upstairs then shrugging one's shoulders does not absolve one of their moral responsibility to address wrong. And in this case, it wasn't wrong - wrong is a speeding ticket - it was profound evil.

If Paterno knew what was happening at Penn State in the football facilities he had an ethical imperative to stop it.

+1,000,000

[GooooMarquette]

Regardless of where the buck stopped if Paterno knew what was going on he had a moral responsibility to put an end to it. Kicking the ball upstairs then shrugging one's shoulders does not absolve one of their moral responsibility to address wrong. And in this case, it wasn't wrong - wrong is a speeding ticket - it was profound evil.

If Paterno knew what was happening at Penn State in the football facilities he had an ethical imperative to stop it.

+1000000000000

If I think a co-worker is molesting kids in the shower, and I tell my superiors about it and they don't do anything...I'm going straight to the police.  I don't care if Paterno was so powerless that he would have been fired the next day - he had a moral obligation to help these kids, and it was wrong of him to ignore it just because his superiors told him to.

[MU82]

If Paterno got word of this and he really believed it was happening, and if the university did nothing about it -- and barred him from doing anything about it -- all he had to do was go to the press as an anonymous source.

He could have gone to a reporter he respected at the Philly Inquirer or NY Times or ESPN or wherever and Sandusky would have been toast.

[Guy Fieri's Dad]

Having worked in the football offices 2009-2010 seasons. I can tell you sandusky wasn't welcome in the building and hadn't been since the allegations originally surfaced early 2000's.

Sandusky was an employee of the university (emritus status) but, was no longer a coach or involved with the football program

He had already been investigated in the early 2000's and the police/DA's has decided not to prosecute. Interesting side note the DA who made that decisions disappeared

Second, Paterno could have done more? Yes, for not doing so he is culpable. Did he do the legal minimum yes.

Did PSU football actually break any real NCAA rule not really thus, why the sanctions were walked back. Because powers that be at PSU were getting ready for a lawsuit they were most likely going to win with NCAA. I doubt anyone can argue PSU gained an  advantage from what Sandusky did unlike UNC.

Did PSU football deserve to be punished under current NCAA rules No. Is what what happened morally and ethically horrible yes and there lies the contradiction and problem for most people.

Did UNC break ncaa rules and benefit directly yes. They should get at minimum what psu received.

[Dawson Rental]

+1000000000000

If I think a co-worker is molesting kids in the shower, and I tell my superiors about it and they don't do anything...I'm going straight to the police.  I don't care if Paterno was so powerless that he would have been fired the next day - he had a moral obligation to help these kids, and it was wrong of him to ignore it just because his superiors told him to.

I would absolutely agree, except there is no evidence that what you say in the part of your post which I've bolded actually happened.

[warriorchick]

UNC has responded to the allegations. In short:

"Since only half the kids in this joke of an academic program were athletes, it really isn't an NCAA matter, so mind your own f*cking business."

http://deadspin.com/unc-response-to-ncaa-allegations-stick-to-sports-1784719614

[GGGG]

UNC has responded to the allegations. In short:

"Since only half the kids in this joke of an academic program were athletes, it really isn't an NCAA matter, so mind your own f*cking business."

http://deadspin.com/unc-response-to-ncaa-allegations-stick-to-sports-1784719614

Which is exactly what I said the problem was going to be earlier in this topic. (See reply #9.)  It is simply a bigger issue than the NCAA's scope.