UNC Investigation

[forgetful]

Yes and that's kind of my point.  The accreditation body for UNC already put them on probation.  Here is a story on that and how the University has had to respond.

http://college.usatoday.com/2015/06/11/unc-probation-accreditation-agency/

To me this is much more effective than NCAA standards that are simply window dressing.  While the changes got rid of the sham degree, it didn't get rid of the get them in, move them along and move them out mentality.  So we have created a system that seems like it adds legitimacy, but I'm not sure it does.

Put it this way, we like to tout when Marquette basketball players graduate.  However how many of them truly have gained the knowledge that allow them to use that degree?  How many of them retained that knowledge when working extensively with tutors?  How many of them end up in careers that require a college degree?

I would much rather have a system where schools are allowed to admit whomever they want, BUT guaranty them free attendance for life to attain their degree along with access to resources such as tutoring and career development.  (Not necessarily a basketball scholarship for four years though.)  So instead of throwing a bunch of resources at them simply to keep them eligible, use those resources to make sure they actually learn something.

I assume you know next to nothing about these accreditation agencies. 

Probation means nothing and UNC will never be punished by the accreditation agencies to any extent besides a "don't do that again; probation".

[mu03eng]

You're thinking about it wrong. Theyre not there to make sure athletes are collecting their pay. They are there to make sure the university is properly distributing that pay.

If that's the case, then they totally failed to make sure the athletes were paid at UNC, yes?

[GGGG]

I assume you know next to nothing about these accreditation agencies. 

I know a lot about them.

Probation means nothing and UNC will never be punished by the accreditation agencies to any extent besides a "don't do that again; probation".

UNC actually did take a number of steps to prevent it from happening again and detailed what those steps were.  Good enough for me.

[muwarrior69]

We all know if Marquette did what UNC did, Marquette would be sanctioned right out of D1 basketball. The rules apply, except to the elite few.

[GGGG]

We all know if Marquette did what UNC did, Marquette would be sanctioned right out of D1 basketball. The rules apply, except to the elite few.

Yeah there is no evidence to suggest that.  I mean the NCAA pretty much made up a jurisdiction to severely punish one of the elites of college football.  Elite programs have been on probation previously.

What elite schools do have is the money to make sure that academic "progress" is attained though intensive tutoring and the like.  They also have the money to hire the best law firms, etc. 

[dgies9156]

Yeah there is no evidence to suggest that.  I mean the NCAA pretty much made up a jurisdiction to severely punish one of the elites of college football.  Elite programs have been on probation previously.

What elite schools do have is the money to make sure that academic "progress" is attained though intensive tutoring and the like.  They also have the money to hire the best law firms, etc.

I would agree.

Years ago, SMU was an elite of College Football. Until the NCAA uncovered enough rule violations to give SMU the death penalty.

SMU has not been seen nor heard from among power teams since.

If they penalize North Carolina -- and I'm not sure they will either -- another school will fill the void among elite teams. New rivalries will develop when Duke starts kicking the living crap out of UNC year in and year out.

Seeing UNC fall would not be the end of the world, except in Chapel Hill. Once upon a time, UCLA was a very elite program. No one ever won as many NCAA D1 Basketball championships as UCLA. They're still good, but more like we've been in recent years. Sometimes good, sometimes very good and sometimes mediocre. The NCAA could survive North Carolina descending to the depths of ordinary.

College basketball did not die because UCLA, in its Los Angeles base, became ordinary. Nor will it die if someone else in the ACC takes UNC's place -- as long as it is NOT Virginia Tech or Notre Dame!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If that's the case, then they totally failed to make sure the athletes were paid at UNC, yes?

Absolutely. Hoping that they will get off their ass and do something. I never said the NCAA was good at its job. But it's all we got right now. I'd rather fix the broken system than say the system is broken so let's toss it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

UNC actually did take a number of steps to prevent it from happening again and detailed what those steps were.  Good enough for me.

An absolutely fair opinion. Personally, I don't think there is enough bite to prevent it from happening again. And that affects fair competition and is abusive of athletes.

The only things these schools care about is if their football and men's basketball teams are winning. If you want to keep these abuses from occurring then that's where you need to hit them. The issue may be academic but it happened for the benefit of athletics. Similarly, the Penn State case was conduct related but it was allowed for the sake of athletics.

[GGGG]

An absolutely fair opinion. Personally, I don't think there is enough bite to prevent it from happening again. And that affects fair competition and is abusive of athletes.

The concept of "fair competition" has never, and will never, be part of college athletics.  Ever. 

And there are other ways that you can prevent abuse of athletes other than the sham system that the NCAA has put in place now.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The concept of "fair competition" has never, and will never, be part of college athletics.  Ever. 

Depends on your definition.

And there are other ways that you can prevent abuse of athletes other than the sham system that the NCAA has put in place now.

How? Cause accreditation probation will not cut it.

[GGGG]

How? Cause accreditation probation will not cut it.

I have mentioned it earlier.  Guaranteed full cost of attendance scholarship for life to attain a bachelor's degree.  Even if that means admitting someone who will need remedial work.

[forgetful]

I know a lot about them.


UNC actually did take a number of steps to prevent it from happening again and detailed what those steps were.  Good enough for me.

UNC did nothing that they weren't already doing.  Accreditation organizations and "probation" from them means nothing.  The only people that like Accreditation are administrators, because they can pat themselves on the back and if something goes wrong blame the professor.

It is a way bigger sham than the NCAA.

For those not involved, here is how Accreditation generally works.  For core curriculum they have to show they fulfill said core curriculum.  Basically, submit some papers and it is rubber stamped by the office of around 12 people that oversee an entire region of hundreds of colleges.

For other classes, professors are told they need to have "education outcomes".  Those outcomes are up to the professor.  The professor then has to decide how to assess those outcomes.  The professor assesses those outcomes themselves and decides if they fulfill said goal or not. 

The university keeps these and tells the accreditation organization every thing is great.  If there is an audit or fraud (in UNC's case), the accreditation organization run by former university administrators goes and talks to their buddies saying...wtf.  The Administrators go back and say the professor did not fulfill obligations.  We will make sure they do so in the future. 

To save face, here is a probation that means nothing.  We will just use it to show that we actually do something for our jobs. 

[GGGG]

UNC did nothing that they weren't already doing.  Accreditation organizations and "probation" from them means nothing.  The only people that like Accreditation are administrators, because they can pat themselves on the back and if something goes wrong blame the professor.

It is a way bigger sham than the NCAA.

For those not involved, here is how Accreditation generally works.  For core curriculum they have to show they fulfill said core curriculum.  Basically, submit some papers and it is rubber stamped by the office of around 12 people that oversee an entire region of hundreds of colleges.

For other classes, professors are told they need to have "education outcomes".  Those outcomes are up to the professor.  The professor then has to decide how to assess those outcomes.  The professor assesses those outcomes themselves and decides if they fulfill said goal or not. 

The university keeps these and tells the accreditation organization every thing is great.  If there is an audit or fraud (in UNC's case), the accreditation organization run by former university administrators goes and talks to their buddies saying...wtf.  The Administrators go back and say the professor did not fulfill obligations.  We will make sure they do so in the future. 

To save face, here is a probation that means nothing.  We will just use it to show that we actually do something for our jobs. 

Ah....  So you don't know much about the accreditation process.  It is much more complicated than you are portraying.  But thanks for playing.

[forgetful]

Ah....  So you don't know much about the accreditation process.  Thanks for playing.

Actually, I work on a major University accreditation committee.  And know many others in the same boat or who are in charge of the accreditation process.  Its total BS.  But here is another professors opinion on the issue.

http://www.rense.com/general96/accred.html

And a lot of what I'm writing above is in new requirements to ensure that the professors are doing their job and to create paper trails to show the University was checking up on these issues...as a result of the UNC issues.

[GGGG]

Actually, I work on a major University accreditation committee.  And know many others in the same boat or who are in charge of the accreditation process.  Its total BS.  But here is another professors opinion on the issue.

http://www.rense.com/general96/accred.html

And a lot of what I'm writing above is in new requirements to ensure that the professors are doing their job and to create paper trails to show the University was checking up on these issues...as a result of the UNC issues.

Oh that's right.  You're a professor.  LOL.  I'll just give you a pat on the head and send you on your way now.

[forgetful]

Oh that's right.  You're a professor.  LOL.  I'll just give you a pat on the head and send you on your way now.

Funny, every professor says the same thing about administrators.  I encourage you to read the book, the fall of the professor. 

When people complain about the costs of college education, a large component of it came when administrators decided education should be run by them and not the educators. 

Accreditation is just a colossal collection of paperwork and absolutely zero validation that any educating was actually being done. 

[GGGG]

Funny, every professor says the same thing about administrators.  I encourage you to read the book, the fall of the professor. 

When people complain about the costs of college education, a large component of it came when administrators decided education should be run by them and not the educators. 

I gotta make my coin somehow!

[Dawson Rental]

Is this a moral or a logistical argument.

Sultan is right....right now we are sitting in an ambiguous stance where we claim to care about athletes being students but then don't do anything to force them to be. Why have the pretense of requiring athletes to be successful students? If Alabama wants to put a bunch of kids on scholarship that can't spell can't and give them money to go to their school so be it. Wouldn't stop Harvard or Stanford or Cal or whoever from having their own academic standards and demanding their students meet them.

The current system in place is merely window dressing so people who watch college sports can feel morally clean when it comes to the value proposition for the people playing the games.

Kevin Ross vs. Creighton University is mostly why.

[Dawson Rental]

Yeah there is no evidence to suggest that.  I mean the NCAA pretty much made up a jurisdiction to severely punish one of the elites of college football.  Elite programs have been on probation previously.

What elite schools do have is the money to make sure that academic "progress" is attained though intensive tutoring and the like.  They also have the money to hire the best law firms, etc.

Which is how Penn State got its victories back.

[dgies9156]

One of the big issues that has to be kept in mind in all of the debate on UNC is the discrepancy between the quality of university education. Years ago, when I was in college, UNLV was a major basketball power. Nobody ever accused UNLV of being the Harvard of the West nor did anyone expect UNLV to suddenly become one of the nation's best public universities.

In short, UNLV was a school that was not academically rigorous.

Now you're UNC. You are competing for athletes against the UNLVs of the east, where Bluto Blutarsky may be the rule rather than the exception. Your basketball program means millions and millions of dollars and has been partially responsible for the university becoming what it is. So you create a class or a program that competes with the lowest common denominator of university. You hope you do not get caught, but if you do, the ends justify the means.

To some degree, every school does "it." The average ACT score for the University of Illinois, for example, is "off the charts," unless you are an athlete. If your student body averages a 29 ACT and your athletes are substantially below that, you can tutor them and teach, but there is only so much you can do unless you create special classes and programs. I have no idea if Illinois did that, but I have to believe that somewhere along the line, most major BIG schools somehow manage to do that.

As schools get more rigorous, the UNC problem will become a bigger and bigger issue. The University of Tennessee, for example, used to admit in-state students based on BPM -- beats per minute. Today UT is selective. Explain how that is possible with the football team (and its reputation) that UT has? It isn't without an accommodation similar to UNC.

For our university, it's clear we have a tough road. Marquette is not an easy school and I don't sense the Jesuits or the administration willing to bend to squeeze athletes through (keep in mind that Horton Roe was for everyone). Places like Marquette, Stanford, Vanderbilt and Northwestern may bend the rules to get someone in  -- but then you have the challenge of getting them out. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

The reality is that the program was set up for athletes. If other students were stupid or naive enough to enroll in it, all the better (in the University's eyes).

That would bring us into a RICO discussion if any one had the balls to press it.  And the grounds are there.

[StillAWarrior]

The University of Tennessee, for example, used to admit in-state students based on BPM -- beats per minute. Today UT is selective. Explain how that is possible with the football team (and its reputation) that UT has? It isn't without an accommodation similar to UNC.

On this topic, it is amazing the transformation that has occurred with Ohio State since I first moved here 25 years ago.  When my wife was growing up here -- and when I arrived -- OSU was similar to how you describe UT.  Anybody with a heartbeat could get in.  Now, it's quite selective and a lot of kids don't get accepted.  Many opt to to to OSU-Mansfield for a year and then transfer to the Columbus campus.

All colleges will make some concessions to allow for admission of student athletes.  At selective schools, it would be very difficult to fill their rosters otherwise -- or at least fill them with athletes that will be competitive.  Some make bigger concessions than others.  Having been through the process recently with some extremely selective schools, it was interesting to compare how different schools approached the issue.  My daughter is a very good student, but she got accepted at a school where her brother was rejected -- and his grades and test scores were better than hers.  And I assume that school make even bigger concessions in the money sports.

[CTWarrior]

Well that may be. That's their decision to make and their consequences to live with.

While I agree with this, as I remember it, the were football players that claimed UNC was forcing some who wanted to take real courses into the bogus curriculum.  I guess the kids could transfer, but it really stinks that they are going to get away with this.

[warriorchick]

On this topic, it is amazing the transformation that has occurred with Ohio State since I first moved here 25 years ago.  When my wife was growing up here -- and when I arrived -- OSU was similar to how you describe UT.  Anybody with a heartbeat could get in.  Now, it's quite selective and a lot of kids don't get accepted.  Many opt to to to OSU-Mansfield for a year and then transfer to the Columbus campus.

All colleges will make some concessions to allow for admission of student athletes.  At selective schools, it would be very difficult to fill their rosters otherwise -- or at least fill them with athletes that will be competitive.  Some make bigger concessions than others.  Having been through the process recently with some extremely selective schools, it was interesting to compare how different schools approached the issue.  My daughter is a very good student, but she got accepted at a school where her brother was rejected -- and his grades and test scores were better than hers.  And I assume that school make even bigger concessions in the money sports.

Perhaps if colleges and universities held student-athletes to the same standard as they do all of their other students, tutoring and summer school would be as important to parents and coaches as AAU leagues.

[Herman Cain]

Perhaps if colleges and universities held student-athletes to the same standard as they do all of their other students, tutoring and summer school would be as important to parents and coaches as AAU leagues.

One thing I am proud of is how MU actually works positively with kids on their academics.