Regular season thoughts

[MerrittsMustache]

I was a lot higher during the Final Four run, the Big East that we won was ranked 2nd....Big Ten was ranked as best conference that year.

It was a wonderful accomplishment, but with the conference already had West Virginia gone and the conference imploding, it was no longer the top conference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think it is any harder now than it was then. We could debate this all day. But I think the goal of Marquette University Basketball has to be what I outlined. NCAA Tournament every year. Top 25 and "in the conversation."

In the conversation for what?  Not sure what that means as it is so broad.   

Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult.  We've had that discussion here many times.  In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good.  The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.

Yes, we could debate all day on the difficulty of getting in.  My biggest argument would be the incredible drop off back then.  In other words, it was a lot like women's basketball where there were 40 to 45 good to really good teams, and then a massive drop off for everyone else.  In today's men's basketball, there are 150 teams on any given night can knock off number 1.  The depth because of talent, scholarship limitations, uncertainty due to kids leaving early, commitments by schools to invest heavily, television, has changed the landscape.

When I was growing up I used to go to UCLA games at the end of Wooden's career, then under Bartow, etc.  The Pac 10 (Pac 8) was UCLA and that was it.  Every once in awhile USC would be ok.  Today's day and age, Pac 12 might send 7 or 8 schools to the dance (yes, the tournament is much larger) and any of them are very competitive every night.

The consolidation of power that existed in the 1960's and 70's in basketball among a small number of schools no longer exists.  MU was fortunate enough to be one of those schools, but the world has changed dramatically with many schools wanting in on the action.  If someone were to tell you in the 1970's that Xavier would be up for a #1 seed in a few decades, you would be laughed out of the room.  Those folks would argue someone like Loyola was much more likely.  Imagine someone back then saying Wisconsin would be in back to back Final Fours.....while at the time Wisconsin was on a 52 year streak of no NCAA tournaments?  Gonzaga.  Butler.

Once TV proliferated and kids could get recognized at schools outside that power group, the world changed forever in college hoops.  It's no longer the special club it used to be. 

[Loose Cannon]

In the conversation for what?  Not sure what that means as it is so broad.   

Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult.  We've had that discussion here many times.  In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good.  The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.

Yes, we could debate all day on the difficulty of getting in.  My biggest argument would be the incredible drop off back then.  In other words, it was a lot like women's basketball where there were 40 to 45 good to really good teams, and then a massive drop off for everyone else.  In today's men's basketball, there are 150 teams on any given night can knock off number 1.  The depth because of talent, scholarship limitations, uncertainty due to kids leaving early, commitments by schools to invest heavily, television, has changed the landscape.

When I was growing up I used to go to UCLA games at the end of Wooden's career, then under Bartow, etc.  The Pac 10 (Pac 8) was UCLA and that was it.  Every once in awhile USC would be ok.  Today's day and age, Pac 12 might send 7 or 8 schools to the dance (yes, the tournament is much larger) and any of them are very competitive every night.

The consolidation of power that existed in the 1960's and 70's in basketball among a small number of schools no longer exists.  MU was fortunate enough to be one of those schools, but the world has changed dramatically with many schools wanting in on the action.  If someone were to tell you in the 1970's that Xavier would be up for a #1 seed in a few decades, you would be laughed out of the room.  Those folks would argue someone like Loyola was much more likely.  Imagine someone back then saying Wisconsin would be in back to back Final Fours.....while at the time Wisconsin was on a 52 year streak of no NCAA tournaments?  Gonzaga.  Butler.

Once TV proliferated and kids could get recognized at schools outside that power group, the world changed forever in college hoops.  It's no longer the special club it used to be.

Solid!

[real chili 83]

A freaking men. That's where my disappointment comes in...Should they have been a stone cold lock to start the year like they were in most of Buzz's years?? Absolutely not, but they should have, at worst been heavy in the discussion right now. You had a Freshman who was one of the best in the country, a top 10 recruit, you should, at the very least be in the discussion for the NCAA's this time of year, NOT losing as many home games(over 2 years) that you have, not losing to DuhPaul(ever), Creighton at home, Belmont at home etc. Youth or not, this team underachieved. They werent that young by the end of the year. The "youth" excuse is so weak...did Youth affect Kentucky a couple years ago?? or Duke last year?? Save the "they are blue bloods" that's different argument. Youth is youth..There was enough talent on this team, the fact that they aren't even in the NCAA discussion...that rests in the Head Coach's lap. He can recruit, no doubt about it, but I have seen NOTHING from him that shows me he can Coach yet. He shows no creativity at all...no "wrinkles" in any game plans etc. Pretty stale really. TC and Buzz got creative from game to game depending on the opponent etc. I have seen nothing of that from Wojo.

You need to take a poop.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Going with the facts...Big East was number two.  We were the 3rd rated team in the conference, won a share of the Big East title.  It was a great accomplishment, but no longer the best league.

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/conferencerpi

[Lennys Tap]

In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said.  In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc.  With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested.  However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially.  Even Jae did in his brief time here.

Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.

Dwayne Wade played here for 2 years, as did Jae Crowder. If you honestly felt "less invested" in the MU program because of it I don't know what to tell you. JFB and DJO played for 3 and logged more minutes than all but a select few of our 4 year players from the past 20 years. I was 10x more "invested" in them than I was Chris Grimm or Chris Otule.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

In the conversation for what?  Not sure what that means as it is so broad.   

Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult.  We've had that discussion here many times.  In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good.  The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.

I agree with the rest of your post.

However, while I think you are right that making the tournament every single year is difficult/impossible, but I disagree that it is an unreasonable expectation/goal for MU.  If that 5th year comes around people shouldn't freak out (even though we will here) - but it should be the common perception that it is a 'down year' or a 'rebuilding year'.  We rightly dedicate a lot of resources to BBall and that should be the return (in my opinion).

[MUfan12]

Making the tournament every year is extremely difficult.  We've had that discussion here many times.  In my view, 4 of 5 years is damn good.  The number of schools that have made it 10 years or more in a row I think is less than 15 schools right now and don't include names like North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, Uconn, Indiana.

Five. Kansas, MSU, Duke, Zags, and the Rodents.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Dwayne Wade played here for 2 years, as did Jae Crowder. If you honestly felt "less invested" in the MU program because of it I don't know what to tell you. JFB and DJO played for 3 and logged more minutes than all but a select few of our 4 year players from the past 20 years. I was 10x more "invested" in them than I was Chris Grimm or Chris Otule.

Which is why undersanding a rationale and endorsing it are two separate things.

[Lennys Tap]

Which is why undersanding a rationale and endorsing it are two separate things.

Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.

Edit: let me clarify this.

I put that explanation out there for someone who I think drew the wrong conclusion from UED's post.  That person acknowledged they may have misread it and amended their original response.  Kudos to them.

[Benny B]

Oh I understood his rationale but it was anything but rational.

Don't use 11 words when 9 will do:

"Oh I understood his rationale but it was irrational."

Don't use 9 words when 5 will do:

"I understood his irrational rationale."

Don't use 5 words when 1 will do:

#heBhoopaloopin

[Dr. Blackheart]

• Second best eFG% team since the Midgets.  Cheatham will be a stud.
• Worst rebounding team in at least 15 years. Need to correct that. Missed Teve.
• Played too fast and too loose at the guard position.  Haanif is not a PG, but Traci looks like he is the guy.
• This roster was not built to be physically Big East ready. A bigger if for next year too as it stands today.
• Hank lived up to his billing.  He will be missed.
• J3 most improved. Needs to play every possession on D
• Other freshmen played like freshmen but showed signs
• Luke, Du, Sandy, and JJJ (earlier) were shrinking violets at times, and SOTG at others.  Need consistency and strength.

Grade C:  At this point, out of NIT. Saw progression and growth in last quarter of season. Roster was built for finesse in a physical league. Depth hurt with so many youngsters so whiffing on graduate big body transfers hurt when Teve left that would have protected Luke and Henry, and helped us on boards. That said, Wojo is 4 out and 1 in on offense, and I think that scheme hurt MU on the O boards more than anything. With such poor offensive rebounding to go with all the turnovers, this team gave back too many possessions. The shooting was better than us fans have seen, and so generally has the defense.  Good road wins for the Thanksgiving tournament and Madison.  Not as good at home as we needed to be.  Growing pains gave us high and lows, but good memories.  We get a reset here in NYC.

Bumping this thread.  My grade won't change--a C is about right considering a losing conference record and missing the NIT (although that is less on the players and more on the schedulers).  One disappointment at the end was five straight stinkers on defense to close out the season.

Roster and coach transition will be interesting to watch. Wojo's third recruiting class in the next days is a huge transitory one. Overall, lots of positives to build on but some potentially big holes to fill in April.

[wadesworld]

Bumping this thread.  My grade won't change--a C is about right considering a losing conference record and missing the NIT (although that is less on the players and more on the schedulers).  One disappointment at the end was five straight stinkers on defense to close out the season.

Roster and coach transition will be interesting to watch. Wojo's third recruiting class in the next days is a huge transitory one. Overall, lots of positives to build on but some potentially big holes to fill in April.

You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.

For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.

[brewcity77]

You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.

For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.

And on paper, his second class is very good as well. Both Hauser and Bailey are consensus top-100 players, and Howard will be top-50 if he reclassifies. Recruiting should be the last thing anyone is worried about.

Now whether the roster construction of said recruiting allows us to win consistently in this league given the physicality of teams like SHU, Xavier, etc. is a different question, but as far as getting quality players, Wojo is doing that.

[HoopsterBC]

And on paper, his second class is very good as well. Both Hauser and Bailey are consensus top-100 players, and Howard will be top-50 if he reclassifies. Recruiting should be the last thing anyone is worried about.

Now whether the roster construction of said recruiting allows us to win consistently in this league given the physicality of teams like SHU, Xavier, etc. is a different question, but as far as getting quality players, Wojo is doing that.

I consider Bailey a 2018 questionable recruit, Wojo might not even be here or Stan Johnson for that matter.  So, so far, he has recruited one kid, not great.  Whoever
the coach is in 2018, they have a new arena to sell, best in the country, so whomever the coach is they will have something to sell.  Bailey is a great start, and Joey
Hauser might be second,  that would be the start of a great class.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Which is why undersanding a rationale and endorsing it are two separate things.

Lenny can't even spell Dwyane Wade's name right....good Lord

[ChicosBailBonds]

You can't really call this Wojo's 3rd recruiting class considering when recruitment for the class of 2014 was going on he was still recruiting for Duke and by the time he got the MU job there was nothing left to recruit besides transfers, of which he got one of the best available but is not a part of the roster anymore.

For all intents and purposes, this freshman class was his first recruiting class, and it is a damn good one.

Exactly.  He's had one recruiting class, and one hail mary to get a grad transfer in his first two months on the job.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I consider Bailey a 2018 questionable recruit, Wojo might not even be here or Stan Johnson for that matter.  So, so far, he has recruited one kid, not great.  Whoever
the coach is in 2018, they have a new arena to sell, best in the country, so whomever the coach is they will have something to sell.  Bailey is a great start, and Joey
Hauser might be second,  that would be the start of a great class.

Wojo will be here in 2018

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I consider Bailey a 2018 questionable recruit, Wojo might not even be here or Stan Johnson for that matter.  So, so far, he has recruited one kid, not great.  Whoever
the coach is in 2018, they have a new arena to sell, best in the country, so whomever the coach is they will have something to sell.  Bailey is a great start, and Joey
Hauser might be second,  that would be the start of a great class.

I'm really excited about the Bailey kid. He will be 20 (I think) when he arrives on campus. He will have physical and mental maturity that most players don't get until they're upperclassmen. He'll be a 24 year old. And he will be a legitimate 24 year old senior! Not a Todd Mayo 24 year old senior.

[HoopsterBC]

I'm really excited about the Bailey kid. He will be 20 (I think) when he arrives on campus. He will have physical and mental maturity that most players don't get until they're upperclassmen. He'll be a 24 year old. And he will be a legitimate 24 year old senior! Not a Todd Mayo 24 year old senior.

The Bailey kid might be a real star as you state he will be a little older than most.  If he is as good as the highlights show we will not be around for 4 years.  Has a little
Reggie Miller look to him.  Carter or Howard, Cheatham, Bailey or Hauser, add Joey, Heldt and you have a pretty good team already for 2018.  Again, still need another big to really make a major difference.  Really like a few bigs by then.  Watched Lewis and Herro, both are lanky but very skinny, might be nice additions need some players with more body girth.  Herro is a Koenig type player, will need 3 years to mature.

[WarriorPride68]

Five. Kansas, MSU, Duke, Zags, and the Rodents.

18 years for them bastards I saw on Twitter last night. What is the current longest streak?

[MarquetteDano]

18 years for them bastards I saw on Twitter last night. What is the current longest streak?

I believe it is Kansas with 26 straight.

[ChicosBailBonds]

18 years for them bastards I saw on Twitter last night. What is the current longest streak?

Rock Chalk Jayhawks!!!   27....tied for longest ever with North Carolina (their streak ended in 2001).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Five. Kansas, MSU, Duke, Zags, and the Rodents.

Louisville would have been 11 in a row, if not for the pull out this year.....hopefully you saw what I did there.