Regular season thoughts

[dgies9156]

That description of a winner is met by maybe 5 schools in the country.  It hasn't been seen at MU in 30 years.  It was a special time, with a special coach, and not near the competition as there is today.  Duplicating what we had in the 1970's fails to recognize college basketball realities of today.

That doesn't mean we can't be very good, but I tire of people saying "we're just settling" for status quo.  Think back what it was like, the market conditions, etc, when MU was one of the top 5 programs in the country and what has changed.

Hell, UCLA isn't close to what they used to be either.  IU isn't.  NC State isn't.  Every game is on TV now.  The scholarships are reduced per team, but the number of D1 teams has grown by more than 100 since then.  Schools like Gonzaga one wouldn't dream of being very good, let alone a number of others.

Chicos, Chicos Chicos.....

I don't think anyone at MU is settling for status quo. There's a reason we slapped Al McGuire's name on everything except the men's room toilet paper. That's our goal again and having "Al" on everything is a constant reminder of what we want to be.

Yes, the 1970s were a long time ago. Too long, at least it seems like, LOL. But consider this. For most of the 1970s, there were 24 teams in the NCAA tournament. We were a Major Independent and generally eight of those 24 slots went to Major Independents. There were 100 or so other MIs at the time. Al's 1970 tirade notwithstanding, the MIs were selected by region, which meant we competed with Notre Dame, Dayton, Loyola, Detroit, DePaul, Cincinnati, Louisville, Drake, St. Louis and several other schools for two slots. The notion of us going to the east or west was unheard of and Al was so angry at being placed in the Midwest that he went to the NIT in 1970.

The major conferences got a first round bye in the tournament. We didn't. We ended up having to play teams like Austin Peay, Miami of Ohio and the like while the BIG and the SEC watched us from the comfort of the first two rows.

Runners up in the conferences were not even considered for the tournament until around 1975 or 1976. The rest of the SEC was so bad because Kentucky was so good and no one else, save for maybe Vanderbilt, invested anything in basketball. The Big 10 was always Indiana, Ohio State and Michigan. Michigan State did not amount to anything until Magic Johnson arrived in 1978. The NIT was so good in those days because there was an enormous amount of talented teams left on the sidelines.

We probably had access to more talent than most of our peers. That's because Al was a great recruiter and, with the exception of about a dozen schools in the United States, hardly anyone recruited African-American players. And very few coaches were willing to take the floor with a team that looked like our's. Go back and read "Strong Inside" about Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt or any of the stories about Mississippi State playing Loyola in the 1963 NCAA tournament.

I don't argue the road is tough today. And, while I was disgusted at Saturday's play, I also think Wojo had a tough job and I'm pleased with him, as a fan. In some ways, the road is tougher. But think about it. There's a 68 team tournament. There are probably 35 to 40 (I forget the exact number) at large slots and the vast majority of those slots will go to the Power 5 and the Big East. We play a tougher schedule now (this past year not withstanding) but overall there's a tilt in the NCAA toward successful teams in conferences like the Big East (the Hillbilly's view not withstanding).

I don't think it is any harder now than it was then. We could debate this all day. But I think the goal of Marquette University Basketball has to be what I outlined. NCAA Tournament every year. Top 25 and "in the conversation."

[MUfan12]

I don't think anyone at MU is settling for status quo. There's a reason we slapped Al McGuire's name on everything except the men's room toilet paper. That's our goal again and having "Al" on everything is a constant reminder of what we want to be.

I'd argue that's more MU clinging to past glory than anything related to future ambitions.

But I think the goal of Marquette University Basketball has to be what I outlined. NCAA Tournament every year. Top 25 and "in the conversation."

See my last post about how difficult it is to make the tournament "every year."

[nathanziarek]

Transfers and jucos are great ways to bring in immediate boosts in talent. Most teams use them to fill in holes in their teams. Buzz built his team with them and tried to fill holes with high school players.

I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.

I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.

Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.

I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?

[GGGG]

I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.

I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.

Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.

I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?

I think blaming Jucos for our attendance issues is a bit of a reach.

[CTWarrior]

I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.

I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.

Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.

I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?

Well, I don't live in Milwaukee, and if I did I'd be a season ticket holder regardless of the quality of the team because I love the sport and the school.  That aside, those guys are the kind of guys I LOVE rooting for.  Appreciative, relentless hard workers and wonderful players.  Those are the kind of guys that would attract me to a program, not the reverse.  To each his own, I guess.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, I don't live in Milwaukee, and if I did I'd be a season ticket holder regardless of the quality of the team because I love the sport and the school.  That aside, those guys are the kind of guys I LOVE rooting for.  Appreciative, relentless hard workers and wonderful players.  Those are the kind of guys that would attract me to a program, not the reverse.  To each his own, I guess.

+1. DJO, Buycks, JFB, Jae, Fulce - give me those guys yesterday, today and tomorrow. Vander, Duane Wilson not as much. Dameon Mason, Ryan Amoroso not at all.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Watching Jae become the BEast POY when it was the greatest bball conference in the country is on the list of best MU bball moments in the modern era (I'm calling that TC forward)

[Dr. Blackheart]

Any of you peeps get that Simpson-Scarborough survey from Marquette benchmarking about academic reputation and alumni engagement?  They threw in 3-4 questions about how important basketball is to the national and regional reputation, connectiveness and academics. 

If it was Pilarz asking it, then I would think it would be around stepping down hoops' influence.  Since its Lovell, I think it's about (politically) sustaining the investment.

[Hubert Davis]

Next year is make or break for Wojo. If we don't make the NCAA tournament this year we should be calling for his head. Period. He hasn't proven crap. With this years talent and a future top 10 NBA pick, 19-12 and 8-10 in conference is PATHETIC. Pick it up Wojo.

[tower912]

As out of touch as your avatar. 

[wadesworld]

Next year is make or break for Wojo. If we don't make the NCAA tournament this year we should be calling for his head. Period. He hasn't proven crap. With this years talent and a future top 10 NBA pick, 19-12 and 8-10 in conference is PATHETIC. Pick it up Wojo.

You're wrong.  In every way.

[The Lens]

Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.

I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?

I can still remember watching us hold off St. John's in the Garden to clinch a share of the Big East Regular Season title.  I started crying.  I'm 40.  I was born in 1975.  For me to see us win (a share  of) the best conference in the land was a moment I will never, ever forget.  In my mind, we got to the mountaintop that day.

Then two weeks later and I'm walking through ATL, and Jamil & Davante are on the front page of USA Today after beating Miami in the S16.  I have never been higher. 

Loved, loved, loved those teams.  In my mind, we were back on top.

[SERocks]

I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.

I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.

Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.

I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?

Not me.  Loved those days.  Loved Buzz's quirkiness. 

This year seemed painful to me.  So many games that we ended up winning, I kinda felt disgusted once it was over.  That seems like a very strange emotion to have when your team ends up winning the game.  And honestly, not too interested in watching the tournament this year.  We will win Wed night and lose Thurs night. 

And somehow it seems odd to me that that moving one seat over is so incredibly difficult when you had, what, something like 17 years sitting next to one of the greatest coaches of all time?  I would have thought that move would have been a bit easier to make.....

Love my Warriors and hate feeling this way.  Hoping for better and more consistent days. 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I've been thinking about this, and I feel like this is key not only to the rebuild, but to the seeming lack of passion at the program.

I can only speak for myself, but as much as I loved watching Jimmy, Jae and DJO, I never really connected with them. I can't say for sure why—they were all seemingly great kids and continue to be good ambassadors for the university—but something about them not coming in as frosh missed a mark for me.

Even as we were heading to our 3rd straight sweet sixteen, my passion for the program was at an all time low.

I wonder if others felt this same way and it's continuing to affect the results in the stands?

Hmmm. Couldn't disagree with this more.  I like where the program is going, but I certainly "enjoyed" the brand of basketball that was being played 2008-2013 much more.  Those teams were, as so many people called them, junkyard dogs with chips on their shoulder.  Up and down games with great offense and tenacious D.  They were so much fun to watch and played with so much emotion. Granted, part of the reason I was in love with those teams is I went to MU 08-12, but those teams were great and almost every game was close.

Being down on the program because the players were jucos and not traditional four year players is pretty lame.

[bilsu]

Next year is make or break for Wojo. If we don't make the NCAA tournament this year we should be calling for his head. Period. He hasn't proven crap. With this years talent and a future top 10 NBA pick, 19-12 and 8-10 in conference is PATHETIC. Pick it up Wojo.

I do not think it is make or break for Wojo. The administration is not going to fire a coach they gave a contract extension to, because that would be admitting they were idiots.

[slingkong]

What's really sad is, people are now happy with showing an improvement from winning 4 BE games to 8 BE games. It's rather pathetic that a program that won a BE title, made the NCAA's 7 years straight, had two sweet 16's, consistently ranked in the top 25, just 3 years later and the fans are now happy with 8 BE wins, and a possible NIT berth because it's "better than last year"?? Wow...some of you just don't get it, at all. This program was on the cusp of being elite in the old BE, a few years later and fans are happy they won 8 conference games?? Okay, so what...Wojo lost a lot of recruits, lots of programs do every year...Duke does, Kentucky does etc etc. They don't rebuild, they reload. I can understand a year missing the NCAA's after such a big change, but going on year 3 now?? How does a program that close to being elite, fall so far so fast??

Again...I will keep asking until someone answers me, because I want all of you to understand the reality of the situation...has any team in America, that's a major program fallen so far, so fast in a few years like MU has?? Find me one please...You can't. has any school been more affected(in a bad way) by the conference switch than MU has?? Not a single one...It's been great for Butler and creighton who moved up(Xavier too) and maybe Providence...but Not one single school in this conference has fallen so far in such a short period of time as MU has.

It wasn't that long ago, where winning at the BC was not only frequent, it was expected. They rarely lost at home, to anyone. Now, opposing teams walk in and it's basically a win before the game is even played...the building is empty, students don't show up etc. Sure all of think the move was great(even if it was all they could do), and yet fail to realize the affects this has had on the program in a bad way. The signs are obvious...MU will likely never come as close to being an elite program again, due to many factors, but who would have thought, they'd be slightly above the Dean years now??

And in Buzz's last year, MU sucked. How convenient for you to forget that, as well as the fact that he left the cupboard absolutely bare for last year.

[brewcity77]

I do not think it is make or break for Wojo. The administration is not going to fire a coach they gave a contract extension to, because that would be admitting they were idiots.

Next year isn't make or break. Losing Ellenson would probably earn him a little rope. Though if we missed the tourney again next year, I do think there would be some pressure starting to build. Not enough to get him canned (I think he gets at least 4 years) but I do think 2017-18 would be make or break.

[Goose]

Overall I am disappointed. Thought having HE would make for a better overall season. IMO, without him we would have been in for a very long year.

[Benny B]

As much as I don't want to agree or disagree with everything said here, I will.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Being down on the program because the players didn't look like you is about as lame as it gets, and frankly could be considered something I am going to avoid saying.

In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said.  In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc.  With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested.  However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially.  Even Jae did in his brief time here.

Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.

[CTWarrior]

In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said.  In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc.  With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested.  However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially.  Even Jae did in his brief time here.

Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.

Well, a lot of those guys were here for 3 years which is plenty of time to develop and pretty long in today's landscape.  I took Utile's comments to mean he prefers to have the guys for four years and sure, we'd all like that, but that is not nearly as common as it used to be.  Two years is plenty of time to appreciate a guy, I think.  I hate to see HE go because I get the feeling he'd be a beast next year, BE POY good.  Just enjoy the guys we have while we have them.  Besides, there are a few that stayed for 4 years that I would have been happy to see leave sooner.  At any rate, as long as the guys aren't thugs (and we never seem to have many thugs) and are working hard, its simple math for me.  I always like them, but the better the team, the more I like them.

[MU82]

First, it wasn't a threat.  You need to step away from the internet and relax.  What would I even have to threaten?  That I won't renew my season tickets?  I am sure MU will be crushed.  No, about the most this means is I might miss one or two 8:20 tip off games on a Tuesday night next year because I admit I am not as inspired watching a questionable NIT team play the #273 RPI opponent as I am watching an NCAA team fight for a conference championship.  Go ahead and question my fan status. I have far bigger concerns than my college basketball hobby. Life will go on and I will still pull for the Warriors.

Second, I don't see either a "specific" set of criteria or a "specific" timeline.  I would like "some obvious growth" next year.  Let's start with better ball control. I expect as the team matures we see this.  I don't think that is unreasonable.  I would like to see some better in game adjustments by both the players and the staff.  Again, I don't think this unreasonable. 

I see a young team with a lot of talent that plays well for stretches.  I would like those stretches to be longer, and yes, I am frustrated that even though they are young they were unable to put together those longer stretches this year.  Is that unrealistic?  Maybe.  In that case I must be the first fan to have unrealistic expectations of my team. 

Finally,  I imagine that if my arbitrary demands and timelines are not met that I will find a fan message board and post messages about how, whether it is fair to the team or not, I was disappointed and frustrated in their overall performance, and how I want to see some improvement in 2017-18.

So now you know what I will do, or more accurately, won't do if there is no improvement next year.  I am sorry you felt threatened by my earlier comment.  That was not my intent. Hope this makes it better.

I wasn't threatened, connie, and MU wasn't, either.

Just sayin' those kinds of posts -- "I need to see some more obvious growth" or "We have to win next season" or "Wojo had better win next year" -- always crack me up a little and lead me to say, "Or what?"

Maybe it's me who is warped ... always a real possibility.

Thanks for expounding on your thoughts. They're reasonable IMHO.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

In his defense, you totally whiffed on what he said.  In the context of his statement, I see the rationale: you get the opportunity to see four year players grow and mature, as we did with the Amigos, Lazar, Davante, etc.  With jucos, a lot of that process happens prior to them getting here, so you don't feel as invested.  However, I would argue Jimmy broke that mold, progressing exponentially.  Even Jae did in his brief time here.

Make sure you understand someone's statement before making a pretty inflammatory accusation.

Fair enough.  Maybe I misread it a bit, just seems silly to be down on a program in the midst of its strongest period since the 1970s due to a few jucos, who by the way,were our best players during that time period. 

[MarquetteDano]

Agree with what many are saying in terms of tempering expectations.  That said, the jury is very much out on Wojo's coaching ability.

I really believe a top notch X and O coach would have won 2-3 more games this season.

Really hope Wojo makes a progression as a coach and/or hires a good X/O coach.

Not saying anything about hot seats but we really need to see bench improvements next season.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I can still remember watching us hold off St. John's in the Garden to clinch a share of the Big East Regular Season title.  I started crying.  I'm 40.  I was born in 1975.  For me to see us win (a share  of) the best conference in the land was a moment I will never, ever forget.  In my mind, we got to the mountaintop that day.

Then two weeks later and I'm walking through ATL, and Jamil & Davante are on the front page of USA Today after beating Miami in the S16.  I have never been higher. 

Loved, loved, loved those teams.  In my mind, we were back on top.

I was a lot higher during the Final Four run, the Big East that we won was ranked 2nd....Big Ten was ranked as best conference that year.

It was a wonderful accomplishment, but with the conference already had West Virginia gone and the conference imploding, it was no longer the top conference.