What is the ceiling for Traci?

[tower912]

Another steal.   Clearly, his HS knee injury hurt his recruiting.   Kudos to Wojo and Co for bringing this Philly steak to Milwaukee.   

 He isn't going to get taller.    He needs to get better finishing around the rim in traffic.    Lessons from Haanif?        He has a great handle, a great attitude, is a leader in the making.   Somebody said that he reminds them of a Buzz recruit because of his junkyard dog attitude.   I'll buy that.   He is going to have competition at the 1 going forward, with Haanif, Rowsey, and Howard (?).
If Howard doesn't come, I see Traci has a starter, though in and out of the starting line up for the next couple of years.     Ultimately, the best PG at MU since Dominic James.    Probably a better shooter, but not quite as athletic.    A starter, a contributor, one we are glad came to MU, a level higher than Cadougan, but not quite at the level to get added to the Mt. Rushmore of great MU point guards. 

[MUfan12]

I don't know if I see a great handle yet. Still lets the dribble get a little high for my liking, but he's getting better. But I absolutely love his makeup.

Needs some polish yet, but I see a guy that wants the ball, and isn't afraid of the moment. And I really like that.

[WarriorPride68]

tranfer home and finish out at Temple when our savior Markus Howard commits

Traci is a wild ride & fun to watch at such a young age

[brewcity77]

I think Traci will go down as our best PG since Dominic James, and really hope he signals a return to Marquette having great point guards. That said, the kid still has a ways to go. Needs to get stronger in the lane, tighter with the handle, and work on defending without fouling.

As much as I like Carter, I don't think he'll exceed what we got from Dom. That kid took some flack because he never became the All-World player we thought he could after that amazing freshman year, but he was a stud for us. I see Traci's ceiling as a hybrid of the best qualities of Junior and Derrick. Like Junior, Traci can get to the hoop and create shots for others. Like Derrick, he's a solid defender. His biggest problems are that he also turns it over like Junior and while he gets to the hoop, he converts like sophomore-year Derrick. If he can keep up the long-range shooting while developing into the kind of fairly reliable inside scorer those two became as seniors, I'd be overjoyed.

[BM1090]

I think Traci will go down as our best PG since Dominic James, and really hope he signals a return to Marquette having great point guards. That said, the kid still has a ways to go. Needs to get stronger in the lane, tighter with the handle, and work on defending without fouling.

As much as I like Carter, I don't think he'll exceed what we got from Dom. That kid took some flack because he never became the All-World player we thought he could after that amazing freshman year, but he was a stud for us. I see Traci's ceiling as a hybrid of the best qualities of Junior and Derrick. Like Junior, Traci can get to the hoop and create shots for others. Like Derrick, he's a solid defender. His biggest problems are that he also turns it over like Junior and while he gets to the hoop, he converts like sophomore-year Derrick. If he can keep up the long-range shooting while developing into the kind of fairly reliable inside scorer those two became as seniors, I'd be overjoyed.

He already has a significantly better 3 point shot and mid range shot than both Derrick and Junior had, and that's a good place to start. There's a lot more space on the floor this year.

[brewcity77]

He already has a significantly better 3 point shot and mid range shot than both Derrick and Junior had, and that's a good place to start. There's a lot more space on the floor this year.

Definitely a better three-point shooter than either of them. Also better at the line. His big bugaboo right now is his inability to finish at the rim. I think that will come with experience and strength, both things that Junior and Derrick added during their careers that allowed both to become good finishers at the hoop by their senior years. I just hope Tra gets there sooner than that. This is a big offseason for him.

[Nukem2]

Definitely a better three-point shooter than either of them. Also better at the line. His big bugaboo right now is his inability to finish at the rim. I think that will come with experience and strength, both things that Junior and Derrick added during their careers that allowed both to become good finishers at the hoop by their senior years. I just hope Tra gets there sooner than that. This is a big offseason for him.

Traci certainly finished well at the rim last night.  Also should have gotten FTs at the end of the first OT.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I like Traci. I get a little nervous when he has the ball...he's got pretty loose handles, but you can see he has a ton of talent. I think he'll turn out to a pretty great PG for MU. Like others said, he's still got a long way to go, but I like what I see more and more with every game.

[brewcity77]

Traci certainly finished well at the rim last night.  Also should have gotten FTs at the end of the first OT.

He was okay, but he's not consistent in that regard, and the tying layup was about as much a gimme as you could ever get. But I look more at the long view than trends. Derrick and Junior were consistently good going to the rim as seniors. Lots of work to get there. But with Traci, I think he's ahead of their curve. That's why I'm high on him. Honestly, I think Traci as a freshman is better than either Junior or Derrick were as sophomores.

Agreed he should have got free throws. The refs were awful.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Overall impact around the Cordell Henry level, though a different array of stats.

[Pakuni]

Carl Krauser.

[BM1090]

He was okay, but he's not consistent in that regard, and the tying layup was about as much a gimme as you could ever get. But I look more at the long view than trends. Derrick and Junior were consistently good going to the rim as seniors. Lots of work to get there. But with Traci, I think he's ahead of their curve. That's why I'm high on him. Honestly, I think Traci as a freshman is better than either Junior or Derrick were as sophomores.

Agreed he should have got free throws. The refs were awful.

And honestly, I don't think it's that close. JR year Junior and SR year Derrick were better than FR year Traci, but Traci is going to be a good one.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Carl Krauser.

Is he still playing for Pitt?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm high on Carter. The way he can dribble through the middle of the defense is something we never saw in junior or Derrick. I think he will end up being a better shooter than Dom. If he can learn to finish at the rim consistently, he'll be the best since Diener.

[hdog1017]

Cordell Henry

[Goose]

Possibly better than the previous PG. At this point I stress possibly better.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Possibly better than the previous PG. At this point I stress possibly better.

And by possibly better you mean better already, right?

[MattyWarrior]

Seems to be gaining confidence as we go, and I think the other guys are pumping him up.
He's a keeper, I can see him figuring it out,hes small but quick and he will strengthen his handle!

[GGGG]

Second Team All BE.

[MU82]

Possibly better than the previous PG. At this point I stress possibly better.

You did actually watch Derrick Wilson play basketball, right?

[Daniel]

Traci's got swagger and vision which are essential for a pg.   he is improving , and gets to the rim consistently - needs to finish and sometimes passes it out instead of trying to score - but he is getting better.   A pump fake would to him wonders under the basket.

Decent shooter, great enthusiasm, confident - I like.  I'm feeling better each game with the ball in his hands.

[Goose]

MU82

I saw Derrick play a lot of basketball during his career at MU. In addition, I have seen every PG that has played at MU for a long period of time. IMO there is ZERO chance that Carter is a four year starter at MU. This is position that needs major uptick in talent moving forward.

[MU82]

MU82

I saw Derrick play a lot of basketball during his career at MU. In addition, I have seen every PG that has played at MU for a long period of time. IMO there is ZERO chance that Carter is a four year starter at MU. This is position that needs major uptick in talent moving forward.

Well, you're right about Carter not being a 4-year starter, as he is not a starter right now. Otherwise, you can't possibly know what is going to happen next at PG for MU.

Wojo is recruiting other PGs and I agree with you that an upgrade would be great. But just because he is recruiting them it doesn't mean he will get any of them. We were stuck with Derrick by default due to Buzz's inability to land a PG, and Carter might be "our guy" because he has to be.

My main problem with your earlier comment is that you implied Carter might not be better than Derrick, quite possibly the worst two-season starter at PG any major-conference team has fielded in many years.

Traci already has demonstrated skills Derrick only wishes he had. If Carter works to correct his shortcomings, the differences between him and Wilson will be tenfold. If Wojo successfully recruits somebody better than Carter, I will be delighted; Carter might not be as happy nd he might transfer, and that would be OK, too. Always Be Recruiting!

Traci/Derrick is a silly comparison, IMHO, and someone such as yourself -- who is so well-versed in MU PG history -- should have been above making it.

[Goose]

MU 82

Everyone has different standards and expectations from players. I still laugh at the John Dawson being the PG  of the future posts from a couple of years ago. I am afraid everyone out here either has amnesia and forgot what a top tier PG looks like or are too young and have only seen subpar PG performance in their life.

[MU82]

MU 82

Everyone has different standards and expectations from players. I still laugh at the John Dawson being the PG  of the future posts from a couple of years ago. I am afraid everyone out here either has amnesia and forgot what a top tier PG looks like or are too young and have only seen subpar PG performance in their life.

I think we agree more than we disagree here. I also didn't get the Dawson love. It was just your Derrick comment that threw me.

I hope we never, ever, EVER go through a two-year stretch with a PG who can't create for others, who can't create for himself, who can't make a FT, who can't make a 3-pointer, who dribbles in place while the shot clock winds down and who can be completely ignored by opposing defenses.

I'm trying to think of a bigger ongoing frustration I've experienced in 37 years as a Marquette fan, and I'm coming up empty. My wife has even noticed how much more positive I am this season now that Derrick is gone.

And for those who extol Derrick's virtues as a fine young man -- and who state that it wasn't HIS fault he had to start -- I agree with those things, too. He simply was a Chicago State PG playing in the Big East, and it was soooo painful to watch.

[tower912]

MU 82

Everyone has different standards and expectations from players. I still laugh at the John Dawson being the PG  of the future posts from a couple of years ago. I am afraid everyone out here either has amnesia and forgot what a top tier PG looks like or are too young and have only seen subpar PG performance in their life.

The last top tier PG was Dominic.    We were spoiled for years at the point.   Miller, Hutch, Henry, Diener, James.     After DJ, it was Acker, Cadougan, Wilson.   IMO, Carter's ceiling is better than Acker, Cadougan, Wilson, but not as good as the other 5.   OK, maybe Henry.   But all predictions go out the window if Wojo lands Howard.   

[Lennys Tap]

MU 82

Everyone has different standards and expectations from players. I still laugh at the John Dawson being the PG  of the future posts from a couple of years ago. I am afraid everyone out here either has amnesia and forgot what a top tier PG looks like or are too young and have only seen subpar PG performance in their life.

I'm with you Goose. The good thing about speculating about a player's "ceiling" is that when (almost inevitably) they fall short the folks with unrealistic hopes can still claim to be right. "He had a high ceiling, could have been our best (fill in the blank) since (fill in the blank). If only (fill in the blank)" LOL.

[MU82]

The last top tier PG was Dominic.    We were spoiled for years at the point.   Miller, Hutch, Henry, Diener, James.     After DJ, it was Acker, Cadougan, Wilson.   IMO, Carter's ceiling is better than Acker, Cadougan, Wilson, but not as good as the other 5.   OK, maybe Henry.   But all predictions go out the window if Wojo lands Howard.

I agree with all of this.

And I stand by what my eyes told me for two painful, painful years: Derrick was the worst of this bunch you listed by miles and miles and miles.

When you start with .429-.175-.456 shooting percentages and go from there, it's really not even open for debate. That two different coaches couldn't find anybody better for two years, a truly horrible mini-era for Marquette. I'm SOOOOO glad it's over.

Comparatively speaking, I am happily accepting the growing pains from Haanif and Traci. At least I feel they have ceilings above where they are now.

And yes, I do hope Wojo lands Howard and he is as great as he is being billed. There is ALWAYS room for an outstanding PG prospect.

[brandx]

I'm with you Goose. The good thing about speculating about a player's "ceiling" is that when (almost inevitably) they fall short the folks with unrealistic hopes can still claim to be right. "He had a high ceiling, could have been our best (fill in the blank) since (fill in the blank). If only (fill in the blank)" LOL.

Two things.

1. French Pastry, baby. (I Know the young guys here will have no clue about this.)

2. People need to quit comparing Haanif to Hall of Famers. He is a good freshman ball player. Pippen, Manu, Westbrook... these are guys that are or will be in the HoF - although style-wise, Manu is a decent comp if you don't include court awareness, which is something HC should develop as he grows.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Goose, you have been down on Traci since the beginning. Can you explain what you see? I get really excited by his potential. I think his handle and vision are that of a high major pg  which are the two hardest things to teach a young pg imho. His defense is well above average for a freshman. His shot and turnovers need work but we have seen improvements over the season. I'm honestly curious since you abd I usually see eye to eye

[Goose]

TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

[Silkk the Shaka]

TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50038.msg791389#msg791389

Look for aggression out of freshmen/rookie pg's. Sign of good things to come. Carter has it.

[The Lens]

I am on record as saying Traci will be Wojo's most important recruit.  He's KO's T-Mill.

[GGGG]

TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

I think he's going to be better than Junior Cadougan, and Junior was a PG on a BE conference championship / Elite 8 team.

[BM1090]

I am on record as saying Traci will be Wojo's most important recruit.  He's KO's T-Mill.

Yeah, I don't really get the complaints about his play. He's a freshman PG who was thrown into the fire when he wasn't ready. He has a very low shooting percentage, but has really turned it around the past 5-6 games. Looks like a different player. Is capable of knocking down 3 pointers. Has a 2:1 A:TO ratio.

Most of all, he's confident. He doesn't really look tentative out there. He made arguably the two biggest shots for us on Wednesday. The layup to tie it, the and 1 to tie it in OT, and he got fouled on a game winning drive to the hoop as well.

Derrick took care of the ball but never asserted himself. I think Carter is going to be a real good player here.

[amen426]

Traci reminds me a bit of Mateen Cleaves, when I watch him. Maybe it’s the way he looks. Maybe it’s his confidence/attitude on the court – but there is something there that reminds me of him.

Cleaves played 26 MPG as a frosh – shot 23% from 3; and averaged 5 Assists / 4 Turnovers, 0.6 steals per game. Traci has played fewer minutes, but still has 4.5 Ast / 2.3 T/O’s / 1.5 Steals, and is shooting 34% from 3. Cleaves had 10 PPG compared to only 5 for Traci, but he also doubled Traci's shot attempts. Traci is the 5th scoring option on this team, right now.

And for the record… Mateen Cleaves was a freshman during Tom Izzo’s 2nd year at Michigan State (first recruiting class). Tom Izzo missed the tournament that season, as well as his 1st season at the helm the year prior. Just like Wojo. Michigan State has not missed the tournament since that year.
   
Cleaves helped put Michigan State & Tom Izzo on the map. Hopefully Carter can help do the same, as Wojo’s first PG.

I get that Traci's not going to be a 3-time All American. But you don't think he can average 11.7 Pts, 7.2 Ast, 3.7 T/O’s, 1.6 Reb, 1.8 Stl and 29% 3PT over 31 MPG, as a JUNIOR, while being the vocal leader of that team? Definitely think he can match that role in two years.   

[MU82]

I think he's going to be better than Junior Cadougan, and Junior was a PG on a BE conference championship / Elite 8 team.

This is my feeling as well. I would have liked to have had a better PG than Junior; if we did, we could have gone even farther. But he certainly didn't stink, and if that's what Traci becomes, we could do a LOT worse -- and we did the last two seasons.

With all this talk of "ceilings" I still maintain that Junior should be the "floor" for acceptable PGs for Marquette. In other words, we are a quality enough program to never have a PG who isn't at least as capable as Junior. It was hard watching the PG position -- and therefore the entire team -- in 2013-14 and 2014-15.

I hope Traci becomes better than Junior as early as next season. And regardless, I hope Wojo recruits somebody better than Traci AND Junior because I want to win big -- and a stud PG can go a long way to getting there.

I had no problem with any of Goose's statements about Carter until he compared him unfavorably to Wilson. It surprised me, because I also consider Goose to be knowledgeable.

As for those who say we shouldn't use NBA names when talking about our players ... I can't speak for my fellow Scoopers, but when I make comparisons (or agree to others' comparisons), I am talking about a certain playing style and/or body type.

So I can see a little Manu in Haanif without saying I think Haanif is going to be as good as Manu, a future Hall of Famer. I can't see Westbrook because Cheatham's body and style are significantly different. All IMHO, of course.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

Comparing a pg to Derrick Wilson is the epitomy of being down on a guy.I say that as a derrick slurper.

I think we as a fanbase have stopped believing in player development. Buzz had so many high school busts and transfers that we never got to see it. Most of buzzs players   who panned out were contributors from day one because they were jucos, transfers, or 25 years old (mayo). That's not a very realistic expectation to set. I think junior is the only player who developed from a benchwarmer into a starter...and that's only because he was injured. Most programs rely on developing reserves into starters and starters into studs.

In conclusion, just because a guy isn't a stud his freshmen year doesn't mean he won't be one by his senior year. Haanie and Traci both have the look if future studs. Heldt and Sacar might be too, but can't be sure yet. I feel better about Heldt than Sacar.

[BM1090]

Comparing a pg to Derrick Wilson is the epitomy of being down on a guy.I say that as a derrick slurper.

I think we as a fanbase have stopped believing in player development. Buzz had so many high school busts and transfers that we never got to see it. Most of buzzs players   who panned out were contributors from day one because they were jucos, transfers, or 25 years old (mayo). That's not a very realistic expectation to set. I think junior is the only player who developed from a benchwarmer into a starter...and that's only because he was injured. Most programs rely on developing reserves into starters and starters into studs.

In conclusion, just because a guy isn't a stud his freshmen year doesn't mean he won't be one by his senior year. Haanie and Traci both have the look if future studs. Heldt and Sacar might be too, but can't be sure yet. I feel better about Heldt than Sacar.

Junior and Vander are probably the two best cases of development. Jimmy too, but he was obviously JUCO

[MU82]

Comparing a pg to Derrick Wilson is the epitomy of being down on a guy.I say that as a derrick slurper.

I think we as a fanbase have stopped believing in player development. Buzz had so many high school busts and transfers that we never got to see it. Most of buzzs players   who panned out were contributors from day one because they were jucos, transfers, or 25 years old (mayo). That's not a very realistic expectation to set. I think junior is the only player who developed from a benchwarmer into a starter...and that's only because he was injured. Most programs rely on developing reserves into starters and starters into studs.

In conclusion, just because a guy isn't a stud his freshmen year doesn't mean he won't be one by his senior year. Haanie and Traci both have the look if future studs. Heldt and Sacar might be too, but can't be sure yet. I feel better about Heldt than Sacar.

Outstanding post, TAMU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Junior and Vander are probably the two best cases of development. Jimmy too, but he was obviously JUCO

Agreed but even Vander was a starter from day 1 iirc. Jimmy was a solid rotation player hits first season. My main point was that we had so many Erik Williams, jamail Jones, and yous mbao type players that we refuse to believe that a Matt Heldt or Sacar Anim could ever become a contributor.

[rocket surgeon]

 
    tracy has a lot of potential-the ball is in his court.  he needs to build upon this year.  as they say-the only good

 thing about freshman is that they become sophomores.  it drives me crazy when anyone: 1)picks up the dribble in

no mans land, 2) picks up the dribble in a coffin corner.  stop it!  if he makes the most efficient use of the tools he

has available to him and stays out of trouble-good things can happen

[MU82]

Agreed but even Vander was a starter from day 1 iirc. Jimmy was a solid rotation player hits first season. My main point was that we had so many Erik Williams, jamail Jones, and yous mbao type players that we refuse to believe that a Matt Heldt or Sacar Anim could ever become a contributor.

Indeed, it's fair to speculate that Frank Kaminsky never would have become Frank The Tank under Buzz.

I appreciate all he did for MU, but you're right that developing prepsters into outstanding college players wasn't one of Buzz's strengths.

[Herman Cain]

I think Traci could eventually be in the upper half of Big East point guards. I would like to see him look to pass a little more, if he would do that it would open things up for him on the dribble drive. I like to see the point guards look to distribute the ball first and then look for their own shot second.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I think Traci could eventually be in the upper half of Big East point guards. I would like to see him look to pass a little more, if he would do that it would open things up for him on the dribble drive. I like to see the point guards look to distribute the ball first and then look for their own shot second.

Funny cause Wojo said the exact opposite after the Butler game. He thought Traci was passing too much and wasn't taking his own chances.

[Goose]

TAMU

You can call my comments as being down on Carter and that is fine. I simply do not believe he is the long term answer at PG if the program is going to achieve goals I hope they have. Have watched a lot of ball in my day I simply do not see the upside as many others on here. Again, hope I am wrong. Everyone on here wants MU to be a great program and everyone has an opinion on how that happens. IMO it starts with having an A+ PG and not a serviceable one.