Are we better than last year?

[mu03eng]

TAMU, please stop using logic and common sense.

We lost at home to DePaul, so this board is filled with anger and spite from commenters who were nowhere to be seen when we were beating Providence and Wisconsin.

These are people who seem to believe that freshmen and sophomores NEVER get better.

You might as well go to the Politics board and try to convince Heisy that every baby shouldn't receive a gun at birth.

Listen, I'm not one of the doom and gloomers and certainly not prone to overreact (I don't think). And while there is definitely unnecessary drama from infrequent posters, I don't think the concerns can be casually dismissed. We are back at a point where we need to legitimately question whether Wojo can coach. He can recruit and he can market a program, but can he develop players and coach them up?

Two areas that concern me. Seemingly both last year and this year the team regressed through conference season. Last year I attributed it to injury with a little bit of a talent gap. However this year, it seems the same thing is happening. Also, watching Wojo on the sidelines(in person) during the DePaul game he was doing a lot of running around and yelling in possession seemingly telling players what to do....I don't think you should have to be doing that in game if you can coach them up in practice. It wasn't like they were playing some exotic defense, it was straight up man to man.

I'm not advocating for him to be fired but he needs to be watched closely the rest of this year and next year. If we see these same issues next year we need to take a long hard look at our future. This season is lost from a tournament perspective, if next year is as well I think we have to make a change.

[79Warrior]

I think this team is top 25 if Henry returns.
I think this team is bubblicious if he doesnt.
I think this team is top 25 if he doesnt and we get a quality grad transfer PF.

Add Markus Howard to any of those and hot damn

This team better learn to shoot if you think Top 25 is likely if HE returns.

[mu03eng]

Whether the "program is better" is somewhat subjective, after you look at hard stats like wins and losses.

One item that's overlooked is .. the passion-ometer.  It's way, way, way way down.  Season ticket sales are down -2500 (-2800?) over the past two seasons, and I'll bet will fall another 1000 next season.    Any business that's lost a third of their customers is in trouble.   It's quite possible an entire 4-year class of students will have no recollection of MU ever dancing in March.

The New Big East, coupled with three losing seasons is a gut punch and wipes away years of building up the customer base.   It's hard to see MU recovering for quite some time, if ever, with ticket costs increasing, and a new stadium adding to higher prices.  Need multiple years of top 25 finishes and decent March runs.

This is very significant. Just the feels of the crowds at games is pretty terrible, I was legitimately happy against DePaul that one loud WE ARE MARQUETTE chant got going for about 60 seconds....that's just sad. The enthusiasm for the program is way down, and I don't think that's really Wojo's fault to this point, but he's got to build it back up and I don't see any way to do that without a winning product.

[GGGG]

Listen, I'm not one of the doom and gloomers and certainly not prone to overreact (I don't think). And while there is definitely unnecessary drama from infrequent posters, I don't think the concerns can be casually dismissed. We are back at a point where we need to legitimately question whether Wojo can coach. He can recruit and he can market a program, but can he develop players and coach them up?

Two areas that concern me. Seemingly both last year and this year the team regressed through conference season. Last year I attributed it to injury with a little bit of a talent gap. However this year, it seems the same thing is happening. Also, watching Wojo on the sidelines(in person) during the DePaul game he was doing a lot of running around and yelling in possession seemingly telling players what to do....I don't think you should have to be doing that in game if you can coach them up in practice. It wasn't like they were playing some exotic defense, it was straight up man to man.

I'm not advocating for him to be fired but he needs to be watched closely the rest of this year and next year. If we see these same issues next year we need to take a long hard look at our future. This season is lost from a tournament perspective, if next year is as well I think we have to make a change.

And I am with you.  I am not saying Wojo is going to be great.  I am saying his grade should be "Incomplete."

Same thing next year?  Hot seat time.

After year four?  Gone.

[GGGG]

This is very significant. Just the feels of the crowds at games is pretty terrible, I was legitimately happy against DePaul that one loud WE ARE MARQUETTE chant got going for about 60 seconds....that's just sad. The enthusiasm for the program is way down, and I don't think that's really Wojo's fault to this point, but he's got to build it back up and I don't see any way to do that without a winning product.

Passion is a trailing indicator.  I remember going to a game in Crean's first year and it was dull, dull, dull...

Winning will bring back people and those people will make noise.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And I am with you.  I am not saying Wojo is going to be great.  I am saying his grade should be "Incomplete."

Same thing next year?  Hot seat time.

After year four?  Gone.

My thoughts as well

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Listen, I'm not one of the doom and gloomers and certainly not prone to overreact (I don't think). And while there is definitely unnecessary drama from infrequent posters, I don't think the concerns can be casually dismissed. We are back at a point where we need to legitimately question whether Wojo can coach. He can recruit and he can market a program, but can he develop players and coach them up?

Two areas that concern me. Seemingly both last year and this year the team regressed through conference season. Last year I attributed it to injury with a little bit of a talent gap. However this year, it seems the same thing is happening. Also, watching Wojo on the sidelines(in person) during the DePaul game he was doing a lot of running around and yelling in possession seemingly telling players what to do....I don't think you should have to be doing that in game if you can coach them up in practice. It wasn't like they were playing some exotic defense, it was straight up man to man.

I'm not advocating for him to be fired but he needs to be watched closely the rest of this year and next year. If we see these same issues next year we need to take a long hard look at our future. This season is lost from a tournament perspective, if next year is as well I think we have to make a change.

The reason we "regress" in conference play is because competition goes up. Some areas of our game have gotten better but were playin tougher opponets. The only player Ive truly seen regress is Sandy. Dont know whats gotten him down the past month.

[mu03eng]

The reason we "regress" in conference play is because competition goes up. Some areas of our game have gotten better but were playin tougher opponets. The only player Ive truly seen regress is Sandy. Dont know whats gotten him down the past month.

Disagree, I think within conference season we've regressed as well. Yes, freshmen are inconsistent, but if you can hang with Nova, X, Georgetown, and beat Providence you do not lose to DePaul. DePaul at home was easier than any of our wins this season and is easier than any of our losses. And it's not just that they lost to DePaul it's the way, defense was a mess(went zone way too late) and the offense was stagnant(much like against X). There was limited hustle and effort.

We'll see how the rest of the season goes.

Side note, I'm guessing we see like 500 people in the stands against Stetson.

[MerrittsMustache]

The reason we "regress" in conference play is because competition goes up. Some areas of our game have gotten better but were playin tougher opponets. The only player Ive truly seen regress is Sandy. Dont know whats gotten him down the past month.

His shooting mechanics are out of whack and he just doesn't look comfortable shooting the ball. It looks like he's thinking too much. Perhaps they've been trying to tweak his shot or perhaps he got the yips after firing up a couple baseline airballs. It could obviously be something else entirely, but something just hasn't been right with his shot since around Christmas.

[GGGG]

His shooting mechanics are out of whack and he just doesn't look comfortable shooting the ball. It looks like he's thinking too much. Perhaps they've been trying to tweak his shot or perhaps he got the yips after firing up a couple baseline airballs. It could obviously be something else entirely, but something just hasn't been right with his shot since around Christmas.

I think he has a slow shot.  In BE play, he can't get it off as easy.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Disagree, I think within conference season we've regressed as well. Yes, freshmen are inconsistent, but if you can hang with Nova, X, Georgetown, and beat Providence you do not lose to DePaul. DePaul at home was easier than any of our wins this season and is easier than any of our losses. And it's not just that they lost to DePaul it's the way, defense was a mess(went zone way too late) and the offense was stagnant(much like against X). There was limited hustle and effort.

I am not saying Wojo is going to be great.  I am saying his grade should be "Incomplete."

Same thing next year?  Hot seat time.

After year four?  Gone.

Both of these are well said

[RJax55]

I think he has a slow shot.  In BE play, he can't get it off as easy.

Yep. Also, if you watch closely, you can see he is between tempos right now. When guarded closely or there's a close-out coming, he's rushing it. When wide open, he's overly deliberate trying to slow down. No consistency right now.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well so does marquette and every other school...so by that standard were all in that range. If that's the only transgression, I would put a school at a 9

I don't agree with Lenny's comments on this.  I'm sure it was hyperbole, but anyone can get into NIU.  Duke, by and large, takes many kids that are academically above the average for most schools.  Are there exceptions, yes.  Let me put it this way, just about everyone that Duke takes for basketball would qualify for MU basketball academically, there are more than our fair share of kids on MU's teams over the years that would not make it to Duke because their standards are higher academically.   And yes, before someone lists a handful of knuckleheads that went to Duke, etc....I get it.  There are exceptions to every rule.

The bigger question is if there are enough fish in the pond to duplicate those efforts? In my opinion, no.  Stanford, Duke, etc, grab most of those kids. To be clear, what Stanford does is MUCH more impressive than what Duke is doing by a long shot when it comes to athletics.  There are kids on Duke that couldn't sniff Stanford. Johnny Dawkins learned that early when he went from Duke to Stanford.

In my view, MU can certainly occupy a space above the UCONN, Memphis, DePaul, South Florida and should.  Does that mean we have to be at Notre Dame, Virginia?  Stanford, Duke?  Or is there a position slightly below them?  In my view many of the programs in the Big East occupy that spot.  Butler, Nova, Creighton, etc.  They will take a chance on a few kids, some schools more than others, but also try and have some consistency to the norm of the student body.  G'Town takes more risks in my view, DePaul, St John's as well.  That may be wrong, but that is my perception.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

In my view, MU can certainly occupy a space above the UCONN, Memphis, DePaul, South Florida and should.  Does that mean we have to be at Notre Dame, Virginia?  Stanford, Duke?  Or is there a position slightly below them?  In my view many of the programs in the Big East occupy that spot.  Butler, Nova, Creighton, etc.  They will take a chance on a few kids, some schools more than others, but also try and have some consistency to the norm of the student body.  G'Town takes more risks in my view, DePaul, St John's as well.  That may be wrong, but that is my perception.

Why do you feel this is a rewarding goal for MU?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Disagree, I think within conference season we've regressed as well. Yes, freshmen are inconsistent, but if you can hang with Nova, X, Georgetown, and beat Providence you do not lose to DePaul. DePaul at home was easier than any of our wins this season and is easier than any of our losses. And it's not just that they lost to DePaul it's the way, defense was a mess(went zone way too late) and the offense was stagnant(much like against X). There was limited hustle and effort.

We'll see how the rest of the season goes.

Side note, I'm guessing we see like 500 people in the stands against Stetson.

So one bad game is a sign of regression? Also I disagree wholeheartedly on the defense in that game. Depaul is a good offensive team and we made them look bad. Unfortunately, our offense and rebounding was so poor that we lost.

[mu03eng]

So one bad game is a sign of regression? Also I disagree wholeheartedly on the defense in that game. Depaul is a good offensive team and we made them look bad. Unfortunately, our offense and rebounding was so poor that we lost.

I think there has been regression within games, DePaul was just the first game that we under performed from start to finish.

The offense was a mess most of X, some of Nova, a little bit of St John's. Offense was "fine" against Providence, Georgetown and Seton Hall.

Defense has been hit or miss through out conference season. Second half of DePaul it was atrocious especially when they went to the pick and roll

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Make fun of me all you want but the point remains the same. Experience is overrated, if you're good, you're gonna be good. Not saying it came help but one offseason isn't gonna remarkably improve this team. Need some more players.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Make fun of me all you want but the point remains the same. Experience is overrated, if you're good, you're gonna be good. Not saying it came help but one offseason isn't gonna remarkably improve this team. Need some more players.

Chitown, I love you, but you couldnt be more wrong.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't agree with Lenny's comments on this.  I'm sure it was hyperbole, but anyone can get into NIU.  Duke, by and large, takes many kids that are academically above the average for most schools.  Are there exceptions, yes.  Let me put it this way, just about everyone that Duke takes for basketball would qualify for MU basketball academically, there are more than our fair share of kids on MU's teams over the years that would not make it to Duke because their standards are higher academically.   And yes, before someone lists a handful of knuckleheads that went to Duke, etc....I get it.  There are exceptions to every rule.

The bigger question is if there are enough fish in the pond to duplicate those efforts? In my opinion, no.  Stanford, Duke, etc, grab most of those kids. To be clear, what Stanford does is MUCH more impressive than what Duke is doing by a long shot when it comes to athletics.  There are kids on Duke that couldn't sniff Stanford. Johnny Dawkins learned that early when he went from Duke to Stanford.

In my view, MU can certainly occupy a space above the UCONN, Memphis, DePaul, South Florida and should.  Does that mean we have to be at Notre Dame, Virginia?  Stanford, Duke?  Or is there a position slightly below them?  In my view many of the programs in the Big East occupy that spot.  Butler, Nova, Creighton, etc.  They will take a chance on a few kids, some schools more than others, but also try and have some consistency to the norm of the student body.  G'Town takes more risks in my view, DePaul, St John's as well.  That may be wrong, but that is my perception.

Much of this is, as you admit, nothing but your perception. No facts to back it up.

Notre Dame never officially de-emphasizes football. They just get rid of successful coaches (Holtz, Devine, some day Kelly, etc) who push for fast cornerbacks over national merit scholars and replace them with guys who look really good in a navy golf shirt and khakis (Bob Davie) or some unqualified God Squader high school guy (Jerry Faust). Because, you know, ND is different. They don't have to be like Ohio St or Michigan - they're better than that. Except it's BS, and after a few years of futility the realists there win the day and they're back to being (and competing with) Ohio St and Michigan.

That's where I see Marquette basketball. When we know who we are and have a dynamic coach it's seashells and balloons. Hell, we even made it to one final four without a dynamic coach because we knew who we were - a team led by a prop 48 superstar and a transfer from (ugh) Mississippi St.. We're not Duke. Never have been  never will be. Want to be Creighton? Fine. I don't. If you force me to pick between being Creighton and UCONN I'll take UCONN any day. That's not "just win, baby" - it's common sense.

Marquette has a history of success as a basketball power. That success involves kids who are tough, mostly urban, mostly black and often from disadvantaged backgrounds. You (and I sense the BOT) prefer something a little more traditional. Be careful what you wish for...

[MerrittsMustache]

Make fun of me all you want but the point remains the same. Experience is overrated, if you're good, you're gonna be good. Not saying it came help but one offseason isn't gonna remarkably improve this team. Need some more players.

First year at MU:

Butler: 5.6 pts, 4 reb
Hayward: 6.6 pts, 3.6 reb
Matthews: 9.0 pts, 4 reb, 2 asts, shot under 40%
Buycks: 6.3 pts, 2 reb, 3 asts
Blue: 5.1 pts, 39% shooting

Clearly experience did nothing for those guys. I thought they were supposed to be good! It's a shame they never got any better.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Marquette has a history of success as a basketball power. That success involves kids who are tough, mostly urban, mostly black and often from disadvantaged backgrounds. You (and I sense the board) prefer something a little more traditional. Be careful what you wish for...

Why cant we be that and still have players who dont get in trouble and take their academics seriously? Why is that a bad thing? I promise you, are academic standards are not that high. Grades dont matter as long as they can qualify and will take their classes seriously. If they do that and wont commit a crime while on campus then Wojo is free to take them and will take them. Whether they are from Rice Lake or Rufus King.

[GGGG]

Make fun of me all you want but the point remains the same. Experience is overrated, if you're good, you're gonna be good. Not saying it came help but one offseason isn't gonna remarkably improve this team. Need some more players.

That is absolutely not true.  Merritt's brought up a bunch of MU guys, but look at Frank Kaminsky.  He went from a freshman year where he scored 1.8 ppg, to a senior year where he scored 18.8 ppg and was national player of the year.

[MUfan12]

Chitown, I love you, but you couldnt be more wrong.

You just don't know Illinois HS basketball, amigo.

[1SE]

Whether the "program is better" is somewhat subjective, after you look at hard stats like wins and losses.

One item that's overlooked is .. the passion-ometer.  It's way, way, way way down.  Season ticket sales are down -2500 (-2800?) over the past two seasons, and I'll bet will fall another 1000 next season.    Any business that's lost a third of their customers is in trouble.   It's quite possible an entire 4-year class of students will have no recollection of MU ever dancing in March.

The New Big East, coupled with three losing seasons is a gut punch and wipes away years of building up the customer base.   It's hard to see MU recovering for quite some time, if ever, with ticket costs increasing, and a new stadium adding to higher prices.  Need multiple years of top 25 finishes and decent March runs.

Despite being an infrequent naying nellie THIS THIS THIS is why I post.  This is also why we need the "Just win baby" mentality.  Because how many years do we sustain the 10 million expense bill with these falling ticket numbers?  We are already one of the least profitable of the big-spending programs.  Yes the Fox money helps, but it's a double edged sword - we get it either way.  If we lose half the fan base at what point does the admin say "f*ck it" and just free-ride on the BE TV contract and NCAA money from the perennial tourney goers?  I think there is a real real danger of a downward spiral here - we lose games, we lose fans, MU starts pulling back on the money into the program, so we lose more games (can't recruit as well), lose more fans, spend less money, etc. etc. etc.   What break my heart is that after really almost 20 years of oblivion in the post-AL era (yes mid 90's ok) we finally had rebuilt something over a DECADE (because that's how long it takes) but now we're running a real danger of plunging back into another 20 years of "meh" - were we're excited to make the tourney once every four years.  Just five years ago we were on the cusp of being a blue-blood.  Think we're still there now?

[GGGG]

Despite being an infrequent naying nellie THIS THIS THIS is why I post.  This is also why we need the "Just win baby" mentality.  Because how many years do we sustain the 10 million expense bill with these falling ticket numbers?  We are already one of the least profitable of the big-spending programs.  Yes the Fox money helps, but it's a double edged sword - we get it either way.  If we lose half the fan base at what point does the admin say "f*ck it" and just free-ride on the BE TV contract and NCAA money from the perennial tourney goers?  I think there is a real real danger of a downward spiral here - we lose games, we lose fans, MU starts pulling back on the money into the program, so we lose more games (can't recruit as well), lose more fans, spend less money, etc. etc. etc.   What break my heart is that after really almost 20 years of oblivion in the post-AL era (yes mid 90's ok) we finally had rebuilt something over a DECADE (because that's how long it takes) but now we're running a real danger of plunging back into another 20 years of "meh" - were we're excited to make the tourney once every four years.  Just five years ago we were on the cusp of being a blue-blood.  Think we're still there now?

I think you are exaggerating a few things here.  First, it did not take a decade to build back the program.  We went five years between the firing of Dukiet and getting back to the Sweet 16.

Second, we were not on the cusp of being a blue-blood.  We went on a nice run  Programs do that.  My guess is that we will be back to the S16 within the next few years.

I think people need to stop being so chicken-little-ish here.  Spending money doesn't guaranty anything.  Spending money just makes the downside shorter and less severe.