2016 guard Mustapha Heron visiting MU

[brewcity77]

I'd take 8 more years of junior before I'd take 1 of Derrick.

I wouldn't be happy with one more year of either. That's where I hope Wojo helps. Buzz was terrible at evaluating PG talent. Absolutely awful. We'll see if Wojo does better, more in line with the guys Crean brought in. Diener, James, Acker, Cubillan, Christopherson, Taylor, I'd take any of them over any PG Buzz recruited.

Hopefully Traci Carter is the first in a line of better PGs than we had the past 5 years. It's truly amazing how much success we had with Buzz when you look at how poorly he recruited the most important position on the floor. Truly a testament to just how good guys like Jae, DJO, Jimmy, and Blue really were that we went as far as we did with such pedestrian PG play.

I have to think Wojo will be a better evaluator of talent at the position as well as a better developer of point guard skills. For a school with as many great PGs as we've had, we've been downright awful at that position for years.

[MuMark]

Christopherson wasn't a point guard and Buzz was the main recruitor for Taylor.

I agree that we need to better then Derrick who was really a backup recruit that Buzz took when he missed out on higher rated targets.

Junior was ok but hopefully we can do better going forward.

[brewcity77]

Christopherson wasn't a point guard and Buzz was the main recruitor for Taylor.

I agree that we need to better then Derrick who was really a backup recruit that Buzz took when he missed out on higher rated targets.

Junior was ok but hopefully we can do better going forward.

Christopherson wasn't, though had he stayed, he probably would have been our starting PG his junior and senior years. And Buzz may have been Taylor's lead recruiter, but he was also the reason Taylor went to Kansas. Had Crean stayed, Taylor would have as well.

[GGGG]

Junior would have been a huge improvement over what we had at PG the past 2 years.  And, For BrewCity,Junior was indeed the catalyst for a number of big wins for MU.  Short memory there.   His foul trouble against Florida inthe NCAAs was problematic for MU.  Junior was simply a leader and a winner.  And, yes he did have an enormous amount of difficulty with Louisville guards under the old defensive rules.  Junio could be exasperating sometimes, but he sure earned his scholie.  His interaction with Davante was terrific.

No need to shift the goalposts.  Never compared him to Derrick.  I was simply comparing him to the expectations that I had for him when he came in.  He was a good player.  Earned his scholarship no doubt.  I simply thought he would be better.

[Nukem2]

No need to shift the goalposts.  Never compared him to Derrick.  I was simply comparing him to the expectations that I had for him when he came in.  He was a good player.  Earned his scholarship no doubt.  I simply thought he would be better.

Saw him in person at the  Al and a couple EsPn TV games, he was what I thought he would be given his physical stature.  He was never an elite athlete and was probably overrated.  in the end, he had a very decent career and fit Buzz's system.  And, he was simply a winner in spite of his limitations.

[GGGG]

I think we are coming to the same conclusions about Junior, just approaching it from different directions.

[wadesworld]

I wouldn't be happy with one more year of either. That's where I hope Wojo helps. Buzz was terrible at evaluating PG talent. Absolutely awful. We'll see if Wojo does better, more in line with the guys Crean brought in. Diener, James, Acker, Cubillan, Christopherson, Taylor, I'd take any of them over any PG Buzz recruited.

Hopefully Traci Carter is the first in a line of better PGs than we had the past 5 years. It's truly amazing how much success we had with Buzz when you look at how poorly he recruited the most important position on the floor. Truly a testament to just how good guys like Jae, DJO, Jimmy, and Blue really were that we went as far as we did with such pedestrian PG play.

I have to think Wojo will be a better evaluator of talent at the position as well as a better developer of point guard skills. For a school with as many great PGs as we've had, we've been downright awful at that position for years.

I'd take Junior over Acker, Cubillan, and Taylor.

[GGGG]

I'd take Junior over Acker, Cubillan, and Taylor.

Yes, yes and very much no.

[Nukem2]

Yes, yes and very much no.

Think the poster was referring to TJ Taylor and not Tyshawn...?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'd take Junior over Acker, Cubillan, and Taylor.

Tyshawn or T.J?

[GGGG]

Think the poster was referring to TJ Taylor and not Tyshawn...?

I think if the premise was non-Buzz recruits, he would mean Tyshawn.

[brewcity77]

I think if the premise was non-Buzz recruits, he would mean Tyshawn.

Absolutely referring to Tyshawn.

[seakm4]

So that Mustapha Heron kid...

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Don't get all the Junior hate. Thought he was a solid player. One of my favorites. I don't get where the "terrible shooter" mantra came from. He shot well enough from the outside for defenders to have to respect him and had a nice pull up mid range game if I remember right. If you wanna see terrible shooting, I have 4 years of Derrick Wilson highlights for you.

[brewcity77]

Don't get all the Junior hate. Thought he was a solid player. One of my favorites. I don't get where the "terrible shooter" mantra came from. He shot well enough from the outside for defenders to have to respect him and had a nice pull up mid range game if I remember right. If you wanna see terrible shooting, I have 4 years of Derrick Wilson highlights for you.

Junior never shot over 23.6% from three. If that demands respect, then I suppose Derrick's 23.1% last year would also demand respect. Neither of them were good at any aspect of scoring the basketball. They were pretty much similar net players with the difference being Junior was a better distributor (albeit with much better talent) and Derrick was a better defender.

They were both adequate fifth starters when surrounded by better players. But to act like either was on par with the guys like Diener, James, or even the one year of Acker in the decade before them (and the numerous other great Marquette points over the years) is borderline laughable.

We have had 5 years of below average point play where that was routinely our weakest position on the floor. For Marquette to truly compete nationally, they will either need much better point play than we have grown accepting of or we need much better players at the 2-5 to make his job easier.

I'm convinced the only reason Junior gets so much love is because he is compared to Derrick. I suppose it's good for him that he's compared to the guy that followed him, because he compares very poorly to the guys that preceded him.

And that definitely includes Acker. Junior never had a season close to as good at the point as Acker did as a senior.

[GGGG]

Don't get all the Junior hate. Thought he was a solid player. One of my favorites. I don't get where the "terrible shooter" mantra came from. He shot well enough from the outside for defenders to have to respect him and had a nice pull up mid range game if I remember right. If you wanna see terrible shooting, I have 4 years of Derrick Wilson highlights for you.

This isn't about Derrick.

But Junior's career 3pt% is 21.7%.  If Derrick would have made 2 more 3 point shots over the course of his career, he would have matched that percentage.

Yes Junior did have a decent mid range game.  And he could push the play way more than Derrick could.  But Junior wasn't a good shooter.

[Dawson Rental]

Conclusion:  In a game of H-O-R-S-E, Junior would beat Derrick.  The question is just how long that game would go on....

[NotAnAlum]

Yes Junior did have a decent mid range game.  And he could push the play way more than Derrick could.  But Junior wasn't a good shooter.

You also can't leave out the fact that Junior was very dangerous driving the lane and could finish even with contact.  That is one of the things that made him a good assist guy.  If you can finish, both your man and the lane defender have to be ready to defend you at all times.  While its true that having a 3 pt shot would have made him "an elite PG" having 2 out of 3 bases covered is generally good enough even for high majors.  Derrick's problem was his answer to avoiding turnovers was never to dribble towards the basket.  If you don't do that AND you don't shoot you are effectively a "non-player".  If Traci has high level talent at driving or 3-pt shooting the offense will run significantly better

[Galway Eagle]

This would be a fun thread to let ners back on for

[Dawson Rental]

This would be a fun thread to let ners back on for

There was this cowboy who took off all his clothes and then jumped into a cactus patch.  Some fellow travelers came by, rescued him, and asked him why he did it.  "It seemed like a good idea at the time" was his reply.

[GGGG]

You also can't leave out the fact that Junior was very dangerous driving the lane and could finish even with contact.  That is one of the things that made him a good assist guy.  If you can finish, both your man and the lane defender have to be ready to defend you at all times.  While its true that having a 3 pt shot would have made him "an elite PG" having 2 out of 3 bases covered is generally good enough even for high majors.  Derrick's problem was his answer to avoiding turnovers was never to dribble towards the basket.  If you don't do that AND you don't shoot you are effectively a "non-player".  If Traci has high level talent at driving or 3-pt shooting the offense will run significantly better

I guess I don't understand the point of the Derrick comparisons.  The entire point of this was NOT to compare Junior to Derrick, but to compare Junior to the expectations we had when he came into the program.

Really if the best thing you can say is "well he is better than Derrick," I guess that answers the question about whether or not he met expectations.  Good guard.  Solid guy.  But IMO didn't live up to his ranking.

[brewcity77]

Conclusion:  In a game of H-O-R-S-E, Junior would beat Derrick.  The question is just how long that game would go on....

Exactly right. Pomeroy has been tracking individual offensive efficiency for 13 years. Here are the top offensively efficient seasons for Marquette starting point guards in that time:

1) 126.6, Travis Diener, 2005
2) 124.5, Travis Diener, 2004
3) 117.1, Maurice Acker, 2010
4) 116.3, Travis Diener, 2003
5) 104.9, Dominic James, 2006
6) 104.7, Dominic James, 2008
7) 104.0, Dominic James, 2009
8) 102.3, Dominic James, 2007
9) 101.2, Dwight Buycks, 2011
10) 99.0, Derrick Wilson, 2015
11) 96.1, Junior Cadougan, 2013
12) 94.6, Derrick Wilson, 2014
13) 92.0, Junior Cadougan, 2012

So what does this tell us? First, Travis Diener was REALLY effing good. Second, that compared to their counterparts, Junior and Derrick were both pretty darn bad. Junior has two of the three worst seasons in the past 13 years and in his best season, he produced 5 fewer points per 100 possessions than anyone else we had at the position not named Derrick Wilson. And not only was Junior our least offensively efficient starter, he was also probably the worst man-to-man defender on this list. Certainly the worst of guys that started more than one season (I don't remember Acker being a particularly good defender either).

When you consider his terrible offensive efficiency (which does include assists created, not just points) and how mediocre a defender he was, there's really no way to say he was a good player. He was just a guy. He was a dime-a-dozen high major player. A decent backup but never worthy of starting. Certainly not when compared to the names ahead of him on this list.

This is why recruits like Mustapha Heron are so important. No, I don't think we will get Heron, but we should be regularly making high-level point guards a priority. It's the most important position on the floor and the past five years our PGs have been the worst we've seen since at least the 80s (before Diener it was Cordell Henry, Aaron Hutchins, Tony Miller, Mark Anglavar, and Tony Smith). We need to get back to being an elite PG university. For the better part of 20 years we had legit studs at the point. For the past few years, we've gotten away from that.

Wojo needs to get us back there. If not Heron (likely not Heron) Wojo still has to make it work with guys like Carter, Cheatham, Rowsey, and hopefully recruits we will have coming in. Buzz winning as much as he did with such poor PG play is an anomaly in this game. I can't see any way it would continue, and as we saw the past two seasons, it was never likely to.

[MUCrew]

I heard he committed

[4everwarriors]

Committed what, hey?

[Galway Eagle]

I heard he committed

Care to elaborate on that? Who said it, is it listed anywhere, who told you?