Standardized Testing - John Oliver

[jesmu84]

So, what do we learn here... politicians made promises based on good ideas (that they couldn't realistically achieve), someone made a ton of money, no one really benefited in the end (especially those who it was supposed to help the most), and when it turns out to not work correctly? People who are mostly innocent get fired.

Perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/v/J6lyURyVz7k

[Eldon]

There are some universities that have taken the initiative to make standardized test scores optional, instead focusing more on GPA, courses taken, extra-curriculars, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There are some universities that have taken the initiative to make standardized test scores optional, instead focusing more on GPA, courses taken, extra-curriculars, etc.

Which is even more problematic because an A in biology at one high school is equivalent to a C at another.  Thus the need for standardized tests because the quality of high schools from one district to another can be difficult to gauge.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Reminds me a bit of a very good Megan McArdle article from a couple years ago:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/21/america-s-new-mandarins.html

Of course, once you gave the imperial bureaucracy a lot of power, and made entrance into said bureaucracy conditional on passing a tough exam, what you have is ... a country run by people who think that being good at exams is the most important thing on earth.

[Lennys Tap]

Which is even more problematic because an A in biology at one high school is equivalent to a C at another.  This the need for standardized tests because the quality of high schools from one district to another can be difficult to gauge.

This is rich beyond belief. The most dedicated defenders of affirmative action (based on economics, not race) could use your argument as their most convincing and compelling one. Absolute evaluations which give no consideration to context are by their very nature unfair. Getting a 30 on the ACTs after 8 years of Winnetka grammar schools, 3 years of New Trier and thousands spent on test prep is NOT a better score than a 29 after 8 years at Suder elementary followed by 3 years at Simeon. Not taking context into the equation is discrimination. Period.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

This is rich beyond belief. The most dedicated defenders of affirmative action (based on economics, not race) could use your argument as their most convincing and compelling one. Absolute evaluations which give no consideration to context are by their very nature unfair. Getting a 30 on the ACTs after 8 years of Winnetka grammar schools, 3 years of New Trier and thousands spent on test prep is NOT a better score than a 29 after 8 years at Suder elementary followed by 3 years at Simeon. Not taking context into the equation is discrimination. Period.

Speaking of context, after high school I found out that for schools up and down the east coast, many have SAT prep classes that students take for 3 years before taking the test. Coming from Podunk, Wisconsin, we showed up one Saturday morning and took the test. My guess is that has some effect on the outcome of test scores ...

[tower912]

1430 SAT   (740 Math, 690 Verbal)
30 ACT   (32, 32, 32, 26)

These are scores from 1983 and I have no idea what they translate to today.   
I had a college prep curriculum, but took no extra classes. 

[mu_hilltopper]

Yeahhh .. pretty sure admissions departments have figured all this out.  Not teal.

[GGGG]

The Oliver piece wasn't about the SAT/ACT, but about standardized testing throughout a child's academic career.

...and it was brilliant. 

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

1430 SAT   (740 Math, 690 Verbal)
30 ACT   (32, 32, 32, 26)

These are scores from 1983 and I have no idea what they translate to today.   
I had a college prep curriculum, but took no extra classes. 

I took the SAT in 2002 and have no idea what I got. There's humble bragging and then there's humble bragging.

[#UnleashSean]

Haha I took an online math class that had this mathxl thing from pearson. (the company featured) And there were sooooo many errors and incorrect math it was hilarious. Along with just a ton of WTF moments.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Oliver piece wasn't about the SAT/ACT, but about standardized testing throughout a child's academic career.

...and it was brilliant. 

It was formulaic....plug and play....same old same old every week.  Some really good stuff, some pretty poor stuff, all mixed in.  He hits plenty of good points, misses badly on some others.  Sounds like many of us here on Scoop.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

It was formulaic....plug and play....same old same old every week.  Some really good stuff, some pretty poor stuff, all mixed in.  He hits plenty of good points, misses badly on some others.  Sounds like many of us here on Scoop.

hear hear. Personally found this one to be weak.

[GooooMarquette]

Which is even more problematic because an A in biology at one high school is equivalent to a C at another.  Thus the need for standardized tests because the quality of high schools from one district to another can be difficult to gauge.

The huge variability between high schools is a fact.  My kids are fortunate to have gone to very strong public schools, and got mostly As.  Now in college, they are continuing to do very well.  But they're in class with kids who likewise got mostly As in high school, and are suddenly C or D students.  When their friends struggle with "new" concepts, my kids are amazed because they learned many of those concepts years ago.

[GGGG]

The huge variability between high schools is a fact.  My kids are fortunate to have gone to very strong public schools, and got mostly As.  Now in college, they are continuing to do very well.  But they're in class with kids who likewise got mostly As in high school, and are suddenly C or D students.  When their friends struggle with "new" concepts, my kids are amazed because they learned many of those concepts years ago.

That isn't just about the high schools. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

What are Oliver's solutions?

[brewcity77]

It was formulaic....plug and play....same old same old every week.  Some really good stuff, some pretty poor stuff, all mixed in.  He hits plenty of good points, misses badly on some others.  Sounds like many of us here on Scoop.

That is my main issue with Oliver's show now. It was billed as an alternative Daily Show, but is really just a couple short news bits followed by the rant of the week. The problem I usually have with it is that while Stewart could usually find some middle ground (definitely leaned left, but was willing to attack the left), Oliver just plants his flag and calls it a day. I watched the first 5-6 weeks, but haven't really paid it much attention since.

[GGGG]

What are Oliver's solutions?

I'm not John Oliver, but instead of an over-abundance of testing, and instead of using such objective metrics to determine the value of a teacher, I would have...

...taken a look to see why students from other countries are better at math and science.  What do they do in the classrooms?  What is their curricula like?  How does it differ from what takes place in US classrooms?

...require principals to evaluate teachers as professionals.  I agree that teachers unions have traditionally been a problem.  It has de-professionalized the occupation.  I know a number of principals, and they know who the good teachers are.  Allow them to reward the high performers, and point out and eventually fire the low performers.  Objective measurements can play a part in that, but ultimately a teacher's job can't simply be measured objectively.

Give me some time and I can think of more.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

What are Oliver's solutions?

No Child Left Behind is part of the federalization of education. Do you think government should run local public schools?

[GGGG]

No Child Left Behind is part of the federalization of education. Do you think government should run local public schools?

As long as the local public schools aren't teaching creationism, intelligent design or such nonsense. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

As long as the local public schools aren't teaching creationism, intelligent design or such nonsense. 

The point of my question is that NCLB is a government program, and Chicos seems to be defending more government involvement in public schools which would seem contrary to his personal philosophy.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not John Oliver, but instead of an over-abundance of testing, and instead of using such objective metrics to determine the value of a teacher, I would have...

...taken a look to see why students from other countries are better at math and science.  What do they do in the classrooms?  What is their curricula like?  How does it differ from what takes place in US classrooms?

...require principals to evaluate teachers as professionals.  I agree that teachers unions have traditionally been a problem.  It has de-professionalized the occupation.  I know a number of principals, and they know who the good teachers are.  Allow them to reward the high performers, and point out and eventually fire the low performers.  Objective measurements can play a part in that, but ultimately a teacher's job can't simply be measured objectively.

Give me some time and I can think of more.

I can get on board with some of these.   A teacher's job, in my opinion, has to be measured to some degree objectively.  There is a fiduciary responsibility to do that, especially with unions involved.  That doesn't mean all of it, but it has to be a significant portion to it. 

Other countries also slot their students into certain paths early on.  I'm not sure that's what we want, but just pointing out the grass is always greener argument isn't necessarily the case either.

School choice...why don't we have it?

So on and so forth.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

I can get on board with some of these.   A teacher's job, in my opinion, has to be measured to some degree objectively.  There is a fiduciary responsibility to do that, especially with unions involved.  That doesn't mean all of it, but it has to be a significant portion to it. 

Other countries also slot their students into certain paths early on.  I'm not sure that's what we want, but just pointing out the grass is always greener argument isn't necessarily the case either.

School choice...why don't we have it?

So on and so forth.

Lots of simple and good ideas here. I'd suggest:

1) Measure principles and not teachers. Different teachers are better cut out for different schools, and the Principle should be measured on how well he/she builds a team to improve the performance of their school
2) Benchmark other countries (already mentioned)
3) Kill teachers unions, and allow Principles to attract, let go of talent as they see fit (just like any other successful organization does)

[GGGG]

Lots of simple and good ideas here. I'd suggest:

1) Measure principles and not teachers. Different teachers are better cut out for different schools, and the Principle should be measured on how well he/she builds a team to improve the performance of their school
2) Benchmark other countries (already mentioned)
3) Kill teachers unions, and allow Principles to attract, let go of talent as they see fit (just like any other successful organization does)

I am only correcting the spelling because it could be confusing...but it's "principal."

[Pakuni]

Lots of simple and good ideas here. I'd suggest:

1) Measure principles and not teachers. Different teachers are better cut out for different schools, and the Principle should be measured on how well he/she builds a team to improve the performance of their school
2) Benchmark other countries (already mentioned)
3) Kill teachers unions, and allow Principles to attract, let go of talent as they see fit (just like any other successful organization does)

Only five states do not allow collective bargaining for educators, effectively banning teachers unions. Those states and their SAT/ACT rankings are as follows:
South Carolina – 50th
North Carolina – 49th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/states-where-teachers-unions-are-illegal-2011-2#ixzz3ZI01umhD

While only 17 prominent studies have looked at the teacher union-achievement link, the rvidence suggests that unionism raises achievement modestly for most students in public schools. These favorable patterns on unionism include higher math and verbal standardized test scores, and very possibly, an increased likelihood of high school graduation. Although most studies were conducted on high-school students, favorable union effects were also found at the elementary level.

http://nepc.colorado.edu/files/Chapter10-Carini-Final.pdf

I'll be the first to admit that this in and of itself doesn't prove a causal relationship, but it it does clearly show that unions hardly get in the way of student achievement.

I do agree that principals should have more discretion in staffing their schools, and the task of removing a bad teacher is too arduous. But the solution ought to be streamlining the process, not eliminating people's rights to organize.