Seniors vs Frosh/Soph Starters

[GooooMarquette]

Two seniors:  7-13 from the field (54%), 14 rebs (7.0 avg.), 7 assists (3.5 avg.).

Three frosh/sophs:  11-35 from the field (31%), 13 rebs (4.33 avg.), 4 assists (1.33 avg.).

Be careful what you wish for....

[ChicosBailBonds]

Two seniors:  7-13 from the field (54%), 14 rebs (7.0 avg.), 7 assists (3.5 avg.).

Three frosh/sophs:  11-35 from the field (31%), 13 rebs (4.33 avg.), 4 assists (1.33 avg.).

Be careful what you wish for....

Maybe they're late bloomers....or maybe the last GM couldn't pick high school talent very well.  I'm looking forward to next year either way.

[NersEllenson]

Two seniors:  7-13 from the field (54%), 14 rebs (7.0 avg.), 7 assists (3.5 avg.).

Three frosh/sophs:  11-35 from the field (31%), 13 rebs (4.33 avg.), 4 assists (1.33 avg.).

Be careful what you wish for....

Juan has been decent this whole year other than a 5 game stretch during conference play.  You could be a winning basketball team having a guy like Juan Anderson play 25 minutes per game.  His senior counterpart??  Not so much.

But here's a question:  Why are our senior leaders and most experienced players NOT taking more shots??  Why are our underclassmen having to launch nearly 2.5 times as many shots?  Derrick has AMPLE opportunities to take shots..all game..every game.  Why doesn't he?  Because you and everyone else know he can't make them unless it's a layup, and that is questionable at times.  Although I do think Derrick hit his first non 3 point or layup shot of the season with that spin move pull up jumper from 6 feet in the lane.

[GooooMarquette]

But here's a question:  Why are our senior leaders and most experienced players NOT taking more shots??  Why are our underclassmen having to launch nearly 2.5 times as many shots?  Derrick has AMPLE opportunities to take shots..all game..every game.  Why doesn't he?  Because you and everyone else know he can't make them unless it's a layup, and that is questionable at times.  Although I do think Derrick hit his first non 3 point or layup shot of the season with that spin move pull up jumper from 6 feet in the lane.

You are correct.  Derrick has limitations, and knows how to play within them. 

[esotericmindguy]

Two seniors:  7-13 from the field (54%), 14 rebs (7.0 avg.), 7 assists (3.5 avg.).

Three frosh/sophs:  11-35 from the field (31%), 13 rebs (4.33 avg.), 4 assists (1.33 avg.).

Be careful what you wish for....

Not sure the motivation for the post, I don't follow everything. But, I wish for seniors that don't dribble without moving vs. a zone. I wish for seniors that don't hold the ball for 5 seconds vs. a zone. I wish for a senior that can make a 20 foot jump shot. I wish for seniors that can make free throws. I wish for a senior that actually makes players around them better. I wish for seniors that don't allow their defenders to clog the lane and allow for immediate double teams in the post.

I can all but gaurantee all the frosh/soph players in the game last night will be much better than the seniors. This team cannot score BECAUSE of the seniors in the game. No driving lanes, no open shots, and immediate double teams. So you can throw stats out of 3 foot shots, but the young players are relied upon to create shots, shoot at end of shot clock, take 3 pointers and drive the lane.

[GooooMarquette]

Lots of wishing.  We all wish the team was better.  The motivation for my post was pointing out that the seniors - while they bear the bulk of the abuse on this board - are far from the bulk of the problems.

JJJ can't hit a 3 to save his life, yet people call Matt a "chucker."  Even Derrick hits a higher percentage than JJJ.

Luke got the ball on the block all night long...and mostly hit the side of the backboard or traveled, yet people claim Derrick can't find the open man.  Derrick had 5 assists last night...and he could have had 8 or 9 if Luke went up strong.

And yet the seniors still get ripped.  In the game thread - during a game where Juan was the only guy playing a good game, and Derrick was no worse than the other starters - posters openly longed for the day when our seniors are gone.

Get the motivation for the post now?

[NersEllenson]

Not sure the motivation for the post, I don't follow everything. But, I wish for seniors that don't dribble without moving vs. a zone. I wish for seniors that don't hold the ball for 5 seconds vs. a zone. I wish for a senior that can make a 20 foot jump shot. I wish for seniors that can make free throws. I wish for a senior that actually makes players around them better. I wish for seniors that don't allow their defenders to clog the lane and allow for immediate double teams in the post.

I can all but gaurantee all the frosh/soph players in the game last night will be much better than the seniors. This team cannot score BECAUSE of the seniors in the game. No driving lanes, no open shots, and immediate double teams. So you can throw stats out of 3 foot shots, but the young players are relied upon to create shots, shoot at end of shot clock, take 3 pointers and drive the lane.

+1

You are correct.  Derrick has limitations, and knows how to play within them. 

Love this meme "knows how to play within them."  (In other words, basically do nothing on the offensive end as our PG, and guy who is supposed to drive the offense/create offense.)  His limitations make offense for all of his teammates a living hell.  For the second year in a row.

Now having said this for the one minute Duane played PG, Duane threw away an inbounds pass, and then we had a relatively ugly possession where Steve made a brutal kick out pass out of the post that left Duane scrambling to try to corral it off the floor.  I can say for the 1:30 seconds Derrick was off the floor last night, we did not look good either.  Yet, I would still like A LOT more data of what the team would look like with Derrick being relegated to a 15 minute role at this point.  What do we have to lose?  And if Wojo can't land a PG this spring (and I'm skeptical that he will be able to land one that can have an immediate impact), we better get Duane some experience now.

[GooooMarquette]

In other words, basically do nothing on the offensive end as our PG, and guy who is supposed to drive the offense/create offense.

"Basically do nothing on the offensive end as our PG."

He shoots better than JJJ (strange but true), and as you admitted he runs the offense better than Duane.  He had 5 assists last night, and could easily have had more if Luke hadn't disappeared after the first five minutes.  And in 37 minutes running the point, he had 1 turnover.  Even with Luke's disappearance, that's a 5:1 assist/turnover ratio.

Basically nothing.

[esotericmindguy]

Lots of wishing. 

That's the sad part, I'm not asking for much. I understand Anderson and Wilson play above average defense and rebound well for their position. But the game is played on both ends, and these two players are an absolute liability on offense. A 20 foot shot isn't that difficult, FTs are easy, and moving the ball against the zone is something they teach you in 6th grade. It's extremely hard to score when 40% of your team doesn't need to be covered. It's obvious now that Carlino covers much of the issues up with great outside shooting.

Fair or not, they're seniors...they deserve the bulk of the blame. This isn't UWM, there are expectations when you accept a scholarship at a major DI college. They are given every opportunity to improve and succeed. When you don't produce you're open for critisicm. Don't like it, go somewhere else. If JJJ continues to be terrible from 3 he'll get ripped as well (he already is). Fischer doesn't develop post moves he'll get ripped like Merritt. Duane doesn't improve on a stellar freshman year he'll get ripped like D James. It's the way it is. It's a tough year because many of us expect Marquette basketball to be a consistent top 20 team.

[esotericmindguy]

And in 37 minutes running the point, he had 1 turnover.  Even with Luke's disappearance, that's a 5:1 assist/turnover ratio.

Go back and watch the game again. How would he turn the ball over when he never does anything? He's a good ball handler, we're happy for him. Honestly, if I'm an opposing coach I love playing against D Wilson. I put my best offensive player on him so he can rest on defense and clog the lane. Can't drive and can't feed post.

There is absolutely no defense for Derrrick. I'm sure he's a nice guy and it's not his fault there isn't a better option...but he's bad at basketball. Plain and simple. Watching him dribble for 10 seconds with a 10 foot cushion makes me want to pull my hair out.

[GooooMarquette]

But the game is played on both ends, and these two players are an absolute liability on offense.

Which brings us back to the point of my OP - they were not the main liability on offense last night.  Not even close.

[Daniel]

And our senior Derrick is the only one on the team whi can bring  the ball up against pressure and dribble in traffic.

The overall talent on the team by position is weaker than our opponents. Our 7-8 guys are not as good as our opponents 7-8 guys. Next year will be better if we find a point guard and a SF.

[GooooMarquette]

Go back and watch the game again. How would he turn the ball over when he never does anything? He's a good ball handler, we're happy for him. Honestly, if I'm an opposing coach I love playing against D Wilson. I put my best offensive player on him so he can rest on defense and clog the lane. Can't drive and can't feed post.

Can't feed the post?  Seriously?  Did you see how many times he got the ball to Luke within 3 feet of the hoop...and how many times Luke botched it up by clanking it off the side of the backboard or traveling? You need to go back and watch the game. Sounds like you missed quite a bit.

[connie]

That's the sad part, I'm not asking for much. I understand Anderson and Wilson play above average defense and rebound well for their position. But the game is played on both ends, and these two players are an absolute liability on offense. A 20 foot shot isn't that difficult, FTs are easy, and moving the ball against the zone is something they teach you in 6th grade. It's extremely hard to score when 40% of your team doesn't need to be covered. It's obvious now that Carlino covers much of the issues up with great outside shooting.

Fair or not, they're seniors...they deserve the bulk of the blame. This isn't UWM, there are expectations when you accept a scholarship at a major DI college. They are given every opportunity to improve and succeed. When you don't produce you're open for critisicm. Don't like it, go somewhere else. If JJJ continues to be terrible from 3 he'll get ripped as well (he already is). Fischer doesn't develop post moves he'll get ripped like Merritt. Duane doesn't improve on a stellar freshman year he'll get ripped like D James. It's the way it is. It's a tough year because many of us expect Marquette basketball to be a consistent top 20 team.

I strongly disagree with part of your post.  Juan and Derrick are what they are:  great teammates, great kids, but best suited as 10-12 minute subs off the bench.

The blame goes to the Buzzard, who left us with a steaming pile of nothing.  You can legitimately complain about our seniors, but remember we only have one junior--Steve!  

MU as a program simply cannot have two classes in a row with essentially spot minute talent followed by a third class that is wildly inconsistent and expect to accomplish anything close to what we are accustomed to seeing.  I assume Bert was planning on bringing in Jucos, and when the admin tightened the screws on that strategy he took off while the gettin was good.  The end result was what we saw last night.  We were outmanned and out talented.  I know Wojo takes some flack, and I will fully concede I am still in "honeymoon" mode where he is concerned, but looking at what we put out on the floor game after game I am surprised that we have kept many games as close as we have.  I give credit for that to the effort of the kids we have and the effort of the coaches.  I put the blame on the one that let this situation build to the point it has reached.

[NersEllenson]

Can't feed the post?  Seriously?  Did you see how many times he got the ball to Luke within 3 feet of the hoop...and how many times Luke botched it up by clanking it off the side of the backboard or traveling? You need to go back and watch the game. Sounds like you missed quite a bit.

Actually I recall Duane and JJJ getting Luke the ball a lot more in the game than Derrick.  I vividly recall one second half awful possession that highlighted the crux of the issue with Derrick trying to feed the post.  Derrick was on the right wing, just inside the 3 point line.  Luke was on low block. Derrick's defender was sagging 4 feet off of him toward Luke.  Derrick of course didn't look to shoot the ball.  Decided I'm going to drive AT my defender a couple of dribbles - now the distance between he and Luke is about 5 feet of separation with Derrick's defender in between Derrick and Luke - and Derrick tried to force a bounce pass to Luke from a next to impossible position.  It got deflected out of bounds (which was actually a fortunate outcome as it could have easily been stolen.)

[NersEllenson]

"Basically do nothing on the offensive end as our PG."

He shoots better than JJJ (strange but true), and as you admitted he runs the offense better than Duane.  He had 5 assists last night, and could easily have had more if Luke hadn't disappeared after the first five minutes.  And in 37 minutes running the point, he had 1 turnover.  Even with Luke's disappearance, that's a 5:1 assist/turnover ratio.

Basically nothing.

Just FYI - JJJ shoots 49.2% from 2 point FG, Derrick 48.9% - just FYI.  Furthermore  JJJ has made 59 2point FG to Derrick's 45 2 point FGs.  Derrick of course has played 277 more minutes than JJJ.  Though JJJ is shooting poorly and worse from the 3 point line than Derrick - the fact he takes them still requires the defense to come out and defend him.  He is defended honestly everywhere on the floor.  This alone has value comparative to the reality of Derrick's limitations.

Additionally, Derricks Turnover Percentage is actually higher than JJJ.  Because Derrick rarely does anything with the ball and rarely is measured in Possession data.  I'm not that impressed with 5 assists in 38 minutes of basketball either.  Considering how little Derrick shoots and how much the ball is in his hands, he's going to default his way into assists.  As I recall last night, he made 1 assist that truly created a good look for Luke on some penetration and a dump off along the baseline.

[willie warrior]

Two seniors:  7-13 from the field (54%), 14 rebs (7.0 avg.), 7 assists (3.5 avg.).

Three frosh/sophs:  11-35 from the field (31%), 13 rebs (4.33 avg.), 4 assists (1.33 avg.).

Be careful what you wish for....

There have been other games where those numbers were reversed. And Derrick's numbers for the year speak volumes.

[esotericmindguy]

Which brings us back to the point of my OP - they were not the main liability on offense last night.  Not even close.

I guess I see a different game than you. It's not all about statistics, the two players you mention only shoot 5 feet and in. Allowing coaches to defend 3 players is a huge advantage, not to mention allowing your best offensive players to rest on defense. Defense is exhausting if you have to chase shooters. Being able to go under EVERY screen and not having to defend the ball saves a ton of energy.

[GooooMarquette]

I guess I see a different game than you. It's not all about statistics, the two players you mention only shoot 5 feet and in. Allowing coaches to defend 3 players is a huge advantage, not to mention allowing your best offensive players to rest on defense. Defense is exhausting if you have to chase shooters. Being able to go under EVERY screen and not having to defend the ball saves a ton of energy.

Derrick and Juan both shoot better from beyind the arc than JJJ.  Strange, but true.

[muwarrior69]

Maybe they're late bloomers....or maybe the last GM couldn't pick high school talent very well.  I'm looking forward to next year either way.

I am looking forward to next season as well. Henry may be the first player we have presently that can consistently score which should open up the lanes for Duane and JJJ. They also will not be able to double team Luke. Hopefully Cheatham will be able to contribute as well. Now if we can get a guy who can hit the open shot (not Henry) from the perimeter we should be competitive next season.

On another note it just amazes me how Butler is so competitive with 2-3 star guys.

[BM1090]

Derrick and Juan both shoot better from beyind the arc than JJJ.  Strange, but true.

Not only that, Juan is our 2nd most accurate 3P shooter this season,  behind Carlino.

[Lennys Tap]

Derrick and Juan both shoot better from beyind the arc than JJJ.  Strange, but true.

Derrick and Juan are 23 for 70 from 3. Juan is 9 for 53.  He needs to go 14 for his next 17 just to TIE Derrick and Juan. That is some big time hideous shooting.

[77ncaachamps]

It doesn't help a big if he doesn't have...

...shooters on the wings.
...excellent passers into the post.
...guys who can score when cutting to the hoop.
...teammates who don't move without the ball.
...a front court presence to preoccupy the other big.

[HutchwasClutch]

Watching this year's team, it's painfully obvious why Buzz wanted out to the first school that would take him, and was willing to accept a pay cut to a school that has zero basketball tradition.   He knew this team would be bad this year, because the upperclassmen are few, are no good, and the young guys wouldn't be near ready to play consistently at a high enough level to win.

Buzz knew full well another down year and he'd be in major trouble, not to mention he obviously knew his act was wearing thin quickly already with the powers that be at MU (such as they were when he left, since rebuilt).  He talked in that one interview with I think Gary Parrish from CBS Sports about his obsessive fear over getting fired from a job.  He made the jump knowing the ax was going to be falling soon on him with the roster he had assembled.  

He probably truly wasn't high on the future of the Big East, and wanted back in bed with ESPN and to jump in the ACC, but he knew what was coming this season.  And remember he was staring at a roster without an accomplished player like Carlino on board either as he jumped ship.

[HutchwasClutch]

The blame goes to the Buzzard, who left us with a steaming pile of nothing.

Absolutley correct.  He brought aboard Sandy and Duane, that's it.  And while they've each had moments this year, neither of them are ready to contribute consistently to a winner this season.  No fault to those guys, it's how it usually is as freshman.  Luke fell in MU's lap, I give Buzz zero credit for him.  He wanted to come back home and play, period. 

BUzz simply could not sustain the success he started.  The DJO's, Butler's, Crowders, Vander's, moved on, and he fell way short of adequately replacing them.  Hence, we're 3-9 in conference, and staring at consecutive seasons of being shut out of any post-season play. 

Nicely done Buzz, you turd.