Seniors vs Frosh/Soph Starters

[GooooMarquette]

It doesn't help a big if he doesn't have...

...shooters on the wings.
...excellent passers into the post.
...guys who can score when cutting to the hoop.
...teammates who don't move without the ball.
...a front court presence to preoccupy the other big.

And likewise, it doesn't help the guard when the big takes an entry pass...and then pump fakes until the defense surrounds him.  Luke needs to learn to go up strong.  Help works both ways.

[NersEllenson]

Absolutley correct.  He brought aboard Sandy and Duane, that's it.  And while they've each had moments this year, neither of them are ready to contribute consistently to a winner this season.  No fault to those guys, it's how it usually is as freshman.  Luke fell in MU's lap, I give Buzz zero credit for him.  He wanted to come back home and play, period. 

BUzz simply could not sustain the success he started.  The DJO's, Butler's, Crowders, Vander's, moved on, and he fell way short of adequately replacing them.  Hence, we're 3-9 in conference, and staring at consecutive seasons of being shut out of any post-season play. 

Nicely done Buzz, you turd.

Hutch - Generally agree with many of your posts - though disagree on JJJ as a player - think he'll be a good one.  This post though I think is a little off.  Had Buzz stayed - Steve Taylor and JJJ are gone.  However, Mayo, Burton, Dawson, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok and Satchel Pierce are here.  Shayok getting decent spot minutes on Virginia (number two team in the country.)  Mayo would have put up Carlino-esque numbers this year.  And I believe Burton would have been a 15ppg scorer under Buzz.  Ahmed Hill has some game as well.

I was really down on Buzz last year, yet have NO doubt had he stayed we would have been A LOT better this season.  A LOT. 

[HutchwasClutch]

Hutch - Generally agree with many of your posts - though disagree on JJJ as a player - think he'll be a good one.  This post though I think is a little off.  Had Buzz stayed - Steve Taylor and JJJ are gone.  However, Mayo, Burton, Dawson, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok and Satchel Pierce are here.  Shayok getting decent spot minutes on Virginia (number two team in the country.)  Mayo would have put up Carlino-esque numbers this year.  And I believe Burton would have been a 15ppg scorer under Buzz.  Ahmed Hill has some game as well.

I was really down on Buzz last year, yet have NO doubt had he stayed we would have been A LOT better this season.  A LOT.  

I've been keeping tabs on both Ahmed HIll and Shayok, and they've both shown no more ability this year to be ready to contribute consistently than Cohen, and less than Duane Wilson.  Shayok hasn't scored a point since January 22nd, 0-10 since.  Emphasis on Shayok is playing for number two in the nation.  Nothing's expected, he has no pressure to produce, he can play a small role on an excellent team, and learn behind more experienced guys.  

Ahmed Hill?  In VT's win over Georgia Tech (aside - Brian Gregory is so getting fired as soon as their season finishes) - 0 pts in 30 minutes.  Granted, he had 19 the game before that, but generally, has been up and down, and mostly mediocre all season.  

Mayo was never remotely "Carlino-esque" in his MU career.  He was a streak shooter, a poor defender, and loose with the ball.  He's not even close to Carlino.  

Burton 15 ppg - highly doubtful - he averaged less than 7 ppg last year, so you're assuming more than doubling his scoring output in one year.  Not to mention no team defense out of him or passing, no making anyone else or the team one iota better.  He played selfish.

I don't buy any of your arguments here.  MU is sorely lacking upperclassman production game in and game out, and none of these guys would have provided that this season.  None.   They would have been as inconsistent and no better alternative than from our current roster.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hutch - Generally agree with many of your posts - though disagree on JJJ as a player - think he'll be a good one.  This post though I think is a little off.  Had Buzz stayed - Steve Taylor and JJJ are gone.  However, Mayo, Burton, Dawson, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok and Satchel Pierce are here.  Shayok getting decent spot minutes on Virginia (number two team in the country.)  Mayo would have put up Carlino-esque numbers this year.  And I believe Burton would have been a 15ppg scorer under Buzz.  Ahmed Hill has some game as well.

I was really down on Buzz last year, yet have NO doubt had he stayed we would have been A LOT better this season.  A LOT.  

I can tell you that Mayo would not be here....IMO. 

I'm not sure we would be a lot better.  This team you are looking at is his GM work.  He didn't value point guards, which is key to success in college basketball.  You have stated all along your concerns about a certain PG, and that doesn't change.  He just doesn't value them like you need to compete at the highest levels.

[HutchwasClutch]

I can tell you that Mayo would not be here.

I agree with that too - he was looking for a way out regardless.

[HutchwasClutch]

I want to emphasize that in my response to Ners, my comment about Cohen was in no way meant to disrespect him.  I love the guy's potential.  He's a vital piece of the puzzle I strongly believe.  My point was he's had a few really nice moments this year, but in general, has played like a kid fresh out of high school, up and down, inconsistent.  Nothing surprsing about that though. 

[connie]

I was really down on Buzz last year, yet have NO doubt had he stayed we would have been A LOT better this season.  A LOT. 

Is this with or without Buzz giving your favorite point guard 30-35 minutes a game--------JUST like he did last year?

[GGGG]

I can tell you that Mayo would not be here....IMO. 

Ners has been told this multiple times by multiple people.  Mayo wasn't run off.  Wojo didn't have the option to let him back.  Buzz wouldn't have had him back either.

But of course that doesn't fit the narrative...

[NersEllenson]

Is this with or without Buzz giving your favorite point guard 30-35 minutes a game--------JUST like he did last year?

I suspect Buzz would have ratcheted Derrick's playing time down some, given the struggles he saw first hand last season and now having Duane Wilson healthy.  Furthermore, he showed a willingness to play Dawson anywhere from 10-30 minutes per game in Big East play.  Hard to think Dawson would have regressed with an offseason of work to not be able to provide those same minutes/likely more. And while Dawson had some struggles in his playing time, he had some moments as well -actually as you look at Sandy Cohen's Big East body of work, its been a similar story - some moments, some struggles.

I can tell you that Mayo would not be here....IMO.  

I'm not sure we would be a lot better.  This team you are looking at is his GM work.  He didn't value point guards, which is key to success in college basketball.  You have stated all along your concerns about a certain PG, and that doesn't change.  He just doesn't value them like you need to compete at the highest levels.

So you can tell me IN YOUR OPINION, Mayo would not have been on the team under Buzz - even though Buzz kept him around 3 years and through many ups and downs?  Only way Mayo would be gone under Buzz was if Admin forced Buzz to cut ties.  From your sources, is that what you were hearing?

Also, not sure Buzz doesn't value PG's, as he'd said ideally he'd like to recruit one in every class.  There was Cadougan, Reggie Smith, Derrick, Duane, Dawson - though both Duane/Dawson seen as combo guards and not pure point.  The big issue is Derrick never really improved as a player offensively in his 4 years at MU, and the lack of improvement handcuffed last year and this year's team tremendously.  Contrast that with Crean:  He hit big on Diener for 4 years, and then Dom James for another 3 years of his tenure.  Mo served as a good back up for Dom - but Crean had NO serviceable back up for Diener for 3 years.

[NersEllenson]

Ners has been told this multiple times by multiple people.  Mayo wasn't run off.  Wojo didn't have the option to let him back.  Buzz wouldn't have had him back either.

But of course that doesn't fit the narrative...

I'm still so amused by people who are "afraid" to post what they allude to given that Mayo has now been gone for almost a year.  If it is a fact, and what they are alluding to is true - then what's the issue with flat out saying it??  So, Sultan - Why was Wojo not allowed to have Mayo back on the team?

Because I have a good source that says Wojo and Mayo got into it over Mayo being gone over the summer and playing in the the Chicago Summer League, and not on campus bonding with Wojo and his teammates.    Mayo walked out on Wojo and said F-It, "I'm going pro."

[GGGG]

I have been told by multiple people that it was more than just heading to Chicago to play in the summer league. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Because I have a good source that says Wojo and Mayo got into it over Mayo being gone over the summer and playing in the the Chicago Summer League, and not on campus bonding with Wojo and his teammates.    Mayo walked out on Wojo and said F-It, "I'm going pro."

No one has told you this. If someone has, they are lying to you. Mayo done fooked up, worse than anytime before.

Ners, you know me. I don't post things as fact very often.

[NersEllenson]

No one has told you this. If someone has, they are lying to you. Mayo done fooked up, worse than anytime before.

Ners, you know me. I don't post things as fact very often.

I don't lie either TAMU, and this is what I was told by a very good source who has been accurate with other information as well.

If you are convinced your version is fact - why again are you just not willing to post here what the specific fook up was? 

[rocky_warrior]

I don't lie either TAMU, and this is what I was told by a very good source who has been accurate with other information as well.

If you are convinced your version is fact - why again are you just not willing to post here what the specific fook up was? 

I don't know anything that isn't public knowledge, but he had what seems like a minor brush up with the law on July 26 "Failure to Obey Traffic Officer/Signal", and then decided to leave on Jul 30.

[NersEllenson]

I don't know anything that isn't public knowledge, but he had what seems like a minor brush up with the law on July 26 "Failure to Obey Traffic Officer/Signal", and then decided to leave on Jul 30.

I wasn't aware of that. But if this kind of brush up is enough to discharge a player from the program (even if player struggled academically and had other minor issues - but no egregious legal issues) we might as well get out of D-1, high major athletics. 

[tower912]

I don't know anything that isn't public knowledge, but he had what seems like a minor brush up with the law on July 26 "Failure to Obey Traffic Officer/Signal", and then decided to leave on Jul 30.

Seems minor.    Unless, due to previous infractions, he was on a zero-tolerance probation. 

[rocky_warrior]

Seems minor.    Unless, due to previous infractions, he was on a zero-tolerance probation. 

Agreed, and either a) That's not the reason for him leaving, or b) there's more to the story and that was a very lenient charge.

[Texas Western]

I'm still so amused by people who are "afraid" to post what they allude to given that Mayo has now been gone for almost a year.  If it is a fact, and what they are alluding to is true - then what's the issue with flat out saying it??  So, Sultan - Why was Wojo not allowed to have Mayo back on the team?

Because I have a good source that says Wojo and Mayo got into it over Mayo being gone over the summer and playing in the the Chicago Summer League, and not on campus bonding with Wojo and his teammates.    Mayo walked out on Wojo and said F-It, "I'm going pro."

Pretty much what happened.

[connie]

Yeah, because Mayo signing up for the summer league came after Wojo's hiring on April 1, so of course this all blew up at a practice on July 29 or 30.  And of course there is this bit from the story: "Mayo ran afoul of former coach Buzz Williams on three occasions, but there were no indications that he was not meshing with the new staff."  I'll grant you that was Mike Hunt, but you would think there would have been a bit more than "Well maybe if you were here bonding with your teammates you would be further along"--"Oh yeah. f-this, I'm going pro."

Even with your version of the tale there is obviously more to tell.

[Lennys Tap]

One thing everybody seems to agree on - until late July Mayo was in good standing and both he and Wojo expected him to be playing for MU this year. So I guess the guy whose "inside source" tipped him months earlier that Mayo was gone can stop patting himself on the back.

[willie warrior]

I don't know anything that isn't public knowledge, but he had what seems like a minor brush up with the law on July 26 "Failure to Obey Traffic Officer/Signal", and then decided to leave on Jul 30.

Sometimes these incidents can be misleading. Have no idea what the circumstances were with Mayo, but I remember once that Randy Moss tried to run over a traffic officer. Don't recall the outcome, but that can be pretty serious. Or maybe I misremember that Moss incident.

[g0lden3agle]

Sometimes these incidents can be misleading. Have no idea what the circumstances were with Mayo, but I remember once that Randy Moss tried to run over a traffic officer. Don't recall the outcome, but that can be pretty serious. Or maybe I misremember that Moss incident.

But it's way easier to interpret the legal issue as something that fits nicely into the Ners narrative blender.

[NersEllenson]

But it's way easier to interpret the legal issue as something that fits nicely into the Ners narrative blender.

I'd say it is a far bigger stretch to think Mayo tried to run over a please officer, and that is what ultimately got him his ticket - and the matter was never even in the public eye - unlike the Vander Blue assault, and the underage players in a bar (gasp), and not even drinking at that...

[g0lden3agle]

I'd say it is a far bigger stretch to think Mayo tried to run over a please officer, and that is what ultimately got him his ticket - and the matter was never even in the public eye - unlike the Vander Blue assault, and the underage players in a bar (gasp), and not even drinking at that...

Fair point.  The fact there were never any public reports of what he did probably does mean it couldn't have been that serious when you consider all the things that HAVE gone public over the years.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Burton 15 ppg - highly doubtful - he averaged less than 7 ppg last year, so you're assuming more than doubling his scoring output in one year.  Not to mention no team defense out of him or passing, no making anyone else or the team one iota better.  He played selfish.

True.  Burton might still be here, and if he was he might be scoring more than his freshman year due to need for scorers on the team, but think about why he didn't play more as a freshman.  Buzz was well aware of Deonte's offensive capabilities, but why did Buzz yank him out of games?  A severe disinterest in defense or doing anything other than scoring.  That didn't change at all in the start to his sophomore season.