TNT debate on Jimmy

[Lennys Tap]

I think what the previous poster meant was 25 year old Jimmy Butler is better than 32 year old Dwyane Wade.  Clearly Wade's career is light years better than Butler's.  Looking at just this season I'd give Jimmy a slight edge over Dwyane mostly due to better health and little bit due to more consistent defense.  But it's razor thin.

Exactly

[MUSF]

I don't see Butler getting 3 rings or being a first ballot Hall of Famer.  Wade have those rings and be a first ballot HOF.

Also, even this year Wade is still playing better.  Averaging slightly more points on better shooting percentages (outside of FT%), less steals but slightly more blocks, less rebounds but more assists.  Wade's PER is 24.00 to Butler's 21.88 (Wesley's is 15.97).  MU is well represented however you look at it.

WHEN Wade plays he may perform slightly better, but the fact that Jimmy logs major minutes and doesn't miss games has to be part of the conversation on which player is better right now.

[PGsHeroes32]

Jimmy again lol


Wade with a nice night too in another loss. Can't make free throws this year though.

[Sheriff]

31 and 10 for JFB tonight in Memphis.

[PGsHeroes32]

31 and 10 for JFB tonight in Memphis.

On back to back nights....both over 40 minutes of PT too. Insane this guy.

[MUDPT]

This.  I was 'done' with Rose during the playoffs a couple of years ago when he had already been cleared by the doctors for 60 days but couldn't put on his uniform because his 'muscle memory' hadn't yet returned.  A flu bug went through the team and guys were blowing chunks into a garbage can along the bench and then re-entering the game to soldier on.  But Rose couldn't dress and spell them.  Jimmy was playing 48 minutes EVERY night.  Rose is a hairy wet cat.  Jimmy, a Warrior.

While I agree that this season Jimmy is better, this post couldn't be more wrong.  You may be right that Rose was cleared by doctors, but do you know how doctors clear their athletes to go back to play?  They bend their knee a couple of times, make them raise their leg up and might test the integrity of the ACL graft.  And then they say is what does your rehab person say?  You are correct that there was nothing else the physician could do, but it doesn't mean their rehab was done or they were ready to return to play.  We never heard from any ATCs or PTs, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Also, more and more studies come out and say "muscle memory" is way more important than anything else in rehabilitation.  You most likely will get all of your range of motion and strength back, but if athletes don't return, it's for lack of confidence or periods of instability.  It has nothing to do with being a "hairy wet cat."  Sorry, off my soapbox now.

[wadesworld]

While I agree that this season Jimmy is better, this post couldn't be more wrong.  You may be right that Rose was cleared by doctors, but do you know how doctors clear their athletes to go back to play?  They bend their knee a couple of times, make them raise their leg up and might test the integrity of the ACL graft.  And then they say is what does your rehab person say?  You are correct that there was nothing else the physician could do, but it doesn't mean their rehab was done or they were ready to return to play.  We never heard from any ATCs or PTs, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Also, more and more studies come out and say "muscle memory" is way more important than anything else in rehabilitation.  You most likely will get all of your range of motion and strength back, but if athletes don't return, it's for lack of confidence or periods of instability.  It has nothing to do with being a "hairy wet cat."  Sorry, off my soapbox now.

I'm going to go ahead and say no professional sports team in the United States would ever hire a team doctor who bends the knee a few times and clears the player the franchise considers to be the best thing to happen since MJ coming off of an ACL tear.  Team doctors are overprotective in professional sports, and the guy was cleared for months.  I can't remember a time where a player was cleared by doctors to return to play and just chose not to.  He's as soft of a professional athlete as you will find, as evidenced by the fact that he can't play through a cold.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

While I agree that this season Jimmy is better, this post couldn't be more wrong.  You may be right that Rose was cleared by doctors, but do you know how doctors clear their athletes to go back to play?  They bend their knee a couple of times, make them raise their leg up and might test the integrity of the ACL graft.  And then they say is what does your rehab person say?  You are correct that there was nothing else the physician could do, but it doesn't mean their rehab was done or they were ready to return to play.  We never heard from any ATCs or PTs, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Also, more and more studies come out and say "muscle memory" is way more important than anything else in rehabilitation.  You most likely will get all of your range of motion and strength back, but if athletes don't return, it's for lack of confidence or periods of instability.  It has nothing to do with being a "hairy wet cat."  Sorry, off my soapbox now.

Well I know where he was doing his PT at and I assure you he was cleared.

[buckchuckler]

Team doctors are overprotective in professional sports, and the guy was cleared for months.  

There are probably a lot of former NFL players that would argue with you on this. 

[Eye]

Any other college programs have 3 guys average 16 a game or better in the NBA right now?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Any other college programs have 3 guys average 16 a game or better in the NBA right now?

Kentucky probably. Davis, Bledsoe and probably a 3rd. I don't know what Kidd Gilchrist is averaging.

[MUDPT]

Well I know where he was doing his PT at and I assure you he was cleared.

Interesting, care to share what tests he passed?

I'm going to go ahead and say no professional sports team in the United States would ever hire a team doctor who bends the knee a few times and clears the player the franchise considers to be the best thing to happen since MJ coming off of an ACL tear.  Team doctors are overprotective in professional sports, and the guy was cleared for months.  I can't remember a time where a player was cleared by doctors to return to play and just chose not to.  He's as soft of a professional athlete as you will find, as evidenced by the fact that he can't play through a cold.

Did the physician run him through the battery of tests that is normally required to clear someone?  Have you ever visited with a physician and consulted with them on returning a player to a sport?  Have you ever worked with a professional basketball player in their return to sport after an ACL reconstruction?  The fact that no one on this board has questioned Rose's quick decision to have a meniscus repair versus a menisectomy (a way, way bigger toughness red flag in my opinion), shows the quality of sports medicine education on Scoop.

[PGsHeroes32]

Kentucky probably. Davis, Bledsoe and probably a 3rd. I don't know what Kidd Gilchrist is averaging.

Without looking at his stats I can say he sure as hell isn't averaging 16 lol. Doubtful on double digits.

I would have to think on other UK players. Rondo but he only averages like 8 pts.

[wadesworld]

Without looking at his stats I can say he sure as hell isn't averaging 16 lol. Doubtful on double digits.

I would have to think on other UK players. Rondo but he only averages like 8 pts.

Brandon Knight

[Eye]

Wall has to be averaging 16.

[PGsHeroes32]

Wall has to be averaging 16.

Duh on Wall wow lol.

Knight is actually having a pretty nice year on the up and coming Bucks.

And yup...MKG is only averaging 8.9

[wadesworld]

Duh on Wall wow lol.

Knight is actually having a pretty nice year on the up and coming Bucks.

And yup...MKG is only averaging 8.9

Knight's numbers look good but he's no good.

[PGsHeroes32]

Knight's numbers look good but he's no good.

Yeah that is what I have always thought. I don't watch enough NBA..certainly not the Bucks so I was surprised at his numbers even when you mentioned him.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Add Demarcus Cousins to the UK list of players over 16 ppg.  Bledsoe just below for the moment at 15.8.

[GGGG]

While I agree that this season Jimmy is better, this post couldn't be more wrong.  You may be right that Rose was cleared by doctors, but do you know how doctors clear their athletes to go back to play?  They bend their knee a couple of times, make them raise their leg up and might test the integrity of the ACL graft.  And then they say is what does your rehab person say?  You are correct that there was nothing else the physician could do, but it doesn't mean their rehab was done or they were ready to return to play.  We never heard from any ATCs or PTs, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Also, more and more studies come out and say "muscle memory" is way more important than anything else in rehabilitation.  You most likely will get all of your range of motion and strength back, but if athletes don't return, it's for lack of confidence or periods of instability.  It has nothing to do with being a "hairy wet cat."  Sorry, off my soapbox now.

If Rose had another medical opinion that stated he wasn't ready to return, I would agree with you.  But that wasn't the case.  Rose *could* have played.  He was medically cleared and went through physical therapy.  He just didn't think he was ready.  It was in his head.

[MUDPT]

If Rose had another medical opinion that stated he wasn't ready to return, I would agree with you.  But that wasn't the case.  Rose *could* have played.  He was medically cleared and went through physical therapy.  He just didn't think he was ready.  It was in his head.

"In his head" is a big deal post ACL reconstruction.

[GGGG]

"In his head" is a big deal post ACL reconstruction.

And the only way to get it out is to play.

[MUDPT]

And the only way to get it out is to play.

Yeah, that's totally wrong.  The only way to gain back proprioception in someone's surgically repaired knee is to play 5 on 5 against the other best players in the world, 5 of which have no regard to your overall health, makes sense to me.

[GGGG]

Yeah, that's totally wrong.  The only way to gain back proprioception in someone's surgically repaired knee is to play 5 on 5 against the other best players in the world, 5 of which have no regard to your overall health, makes sense to me.

He was practicing and reportedly at a high level.  He just didn't want to play...or feel that he could play...whatever.

Look, it was obviously ultimately his decision.  But I can't blame Bulls fans for being pissed that he decided not to after being cleared.  Which meant being done with rehab too ....  which makes this earlier statement of yours was completely wrong: "You may be right that Rose was cleared by doctors, but do you know how doctors clear their athletes to go back to play?  They bend their knee a couple of times, make them raise their leg up and might test the integrity of the ACL graft.  And then they say is what does your rehab person say?  You are correct that there was nothing else the physician could do, but it doesn't mean their rehab was done or they were ready to return to play."

[manny31]

As far as Rose is concerned, soft. I don't judge though most people here see his decision from their perspective what ever that may be fan, former high school player etc. For Rose, I think it became an expected value/ risk reward issue. I would guess somebody in his posse walked him through it. It just is.
JFB vs Dwade.... Love that they are both MU grads and have had great/are having great careers. I love that JFB is going to get paid given his family history. I don't think many of us expected him to improve as much as he has after being drafted. For DWade anyone who watched him dismantle the overall #1 seed. Kentucky in 03 knew what kind of career was ahead of him. I suppose just a matter of expectations.