Vander Blue versus Davante Gardner

[dgies9156]

You were the same guy who labelled him as a "bust" a few weeks ago.  As I said then, your outsized expectations for his play aren't his fault.  They are your's.

Sultan, sorry dude. Appreciate your love of the team and the game, but my vision of expectations for a starting guard are that beginning in his sophomore year, he is a force to be reckoned with on a team headed for the Elite 8.

Vander had moments of glory but lacked consistency and compared to the great guards of MU's yesteryears, doesn't hold up.

[GGGG]

Sultan, sorry dude. Appreciate your love of the team and the game, but my vision of expectations for a starting guard are that beginning in his sophomore year, he is a force to be reckoned with on a team headed for the Elite 8.

What are you saying here?  That because he started as a sophomore he should have been a "force to be reckoned with?"  And they made the Elite 8...largely because of him.  So I guess I have no idea what your point is.

[forgetful]

So, if you're only (super) good at one thing, you can't be called outstanding?  So Steve Novak, who wasn't a great defender, wasn't a slasher or low post-player, not a great ball handler either, but was a fantastic shooter 15+ feet out, he didn't have outstanding year(s)?   

(I suppose one could add a superlative skill to Novak, as his FT shooting was excellent .. but Gardner was auto-matic.  (admittedly he wasn't, hovered around 80%, but 10 points better than the rest of the team and league.)).

I understand your point and agree with it to an extent.  But Novak wasn't an outstanding shooter, he is one of the best pure shooters ever.

As for Gardner, he was an above average low post scorer, bordering on elite (at the college level), but nowhere near the skill level of Novak (comparatively…low post vs. shooter).

[MU82]

Is it possible to vote for both of them as disappointments?

If so, I do.

Oh, absolutely.

They were the most disappointing duo to play a key role in a S16-S16-E8 run in Marquette history. I wish they never even showed up on campus. Without them, I'm sure we would have had three Final Fours and at least one national title.

[Johnny B]

Oh, absolutely.

They were the most disappointing duo to play a key role in a S16-S16-E8 run in Marquette history. I wish they never even showed up on campus. Without them, I'm sure we would have had three Final Fours and at least one national title.

We all have the right to an opinion,but your right that guys an @!#hole

[NersEllenson]

I understand your point and agree with it to an extent.  But Novak wasn't an outstanding shooter, he is one of the best pure shooters ever.

As for Gardner, he was an above average low post scorer, bordering on elite (at the college level), but nowhere near the skill level of Novak (comparatively…low post vs. shooter).

I'd simply like to know in what realm Blue was even borderline Elite?  He didn't finish in the Top 100 in any offensive or defensive categories. Gardner finished in Top 100 OF ALL DIVISION 1 players as a junior in 9 different offensive categories. 

Gardner was very limited

+1000 - Garnder was very limited by Buzz's coaching last season.  That max minute backcourt was a huge hinderance to what should have been a 20 and 9 type of campaign.  And why Buzz limited Gardner's minutes - NO, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF CONDITIONING - as Gardner posted higher O-Ratings on average in the games he played over 30, than under 30...is beyond me.

Blue had one solid year as a starting guard in the Big East - and he was given a starting position since Day 1 during his time at MU.  Recruiting promise..Hmm.  It's been widely rumored, there was a starting role promised to Blue as part of the recruitment.

Todd Mayo, last season, was the same player Blue was as a junior - yet some simply refuse to acknowledge the reality of the likeness of their stats as juniors - actually Mayo's stats last season as a junior were better than Vander's in many categories.

[forgetful]

I'd simply like to know in what realm Blue was even borderline Elite?  He didn't finish in the Top 100 in any offensive or defensive categories. Gardner finished in Top 100 OF ALL DIVISION 1 players as a junior in 9 different offensive categories. 

+1000 - Garnder was very limited by Buzz's coaching last season.  That max minute backcourt was a huge hinderance to what should have been a 20 and 9 type of campaign.  And why Buzz limited Gardner's minutes - NO, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF CONDITIONING - as Gardner posted higher O-Ratings on average in the games he played over 30, than under 30...is beyond me.

Blue had one solid year as a starting guard in the Big East - and he was given a starting position since Day 1 during his time at MU.  Recruiting promise..Hmm.  It's been widely rumored, there was a starting role promised to Blue as part of the recruitment.

Todd Mayo, last season, was the same player Blue was as a junior - yet some simply refuse to acknowledge the reality of the likeness of their stats as juniors - actually Mayo's stats last season as a junior were better than Vander's in many categories.

Blue wasn't elite at anything (although I would say he was elite in clutch situations).  But he was very good at everything (3's just ok).

The problem with Gardner is he was bad on D.  A bad defensive rebounder.  He was borderline elite post up offense.

I would rather have very good all around then borderline elite at one thing.

[Johnny B]

I'd simply like to know in what realm Blue was even borderline Elite?  He didn't finish in the Top 100 in any offensive or defensive categories. Gardner finished in Top 100 OF ALL DIVISION 1 players as a junior in 9 different offensive categories. 

+1000 - Garnder was very limited by Buzz's coaching last season.  That max minute backcourt was a huge hinderance to what should have been a 20 and 9 type of campaign.  And why Buzz limited Gardner's minutes - NO, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF CONDITIONING - as Gardner posted higher O-Ratings on average in the games he played over 30, than under 30...is beyond me.

Blue had one solid year as a starting guard in the Big East - and he was given a starting position since Day 1 during his time at MU.  Recruiting promise..Hmm.  It's been widely rumored, there was a starting role promised to Blue as part of the recruitment.

Todd Mayo, last season, was the same player Blue was as a junior - yet some simply refuse to acknowledge the reality of the likeness of their stats as juniors - actually Mayo's stats last season as a junior were better than Vander's in many categories.

Didn't Davante go from like 370 to 290?

[Johnny B]

Blue wasn't elite at anything (although I would say he was elite in clutch situations).  But he was very good at everything (3's just ok).

The problem with Gardner is he was bad on D.  A bad defensive rebounder.  He was borderline elite post up offense.

I would rather have very good all around then borderline elite at one thing.

And thats why blue has played NBA ball.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I disagree with Sultan's definition of outstanding. But you cannot be outstanding if you are a net negative on defense. Gardner was a fantastic offensive player, I would argue that he was even worthy of being considered elite. But he was a liability on defense. And that is what keeps him off an NBA roster and why I think Blue is the better player.

[GGGG]

Blue had one solid year as a starting guard in the Big East - and he was given a starting position since Day 1 during his time at MU.  Recruiting promise..Hmm.  It's been widely rumored, there was a starting role promised to Blue as part of the recruitment.

Todd Mayo, last season, was the same player Blue was as a junior - yet some simply refuse to acknowledge the reality of the likeness of their stats as juniors - actually Mayo's stats last season as a junior were better than Vander's in many categories.

Two things.  Vander Blue was not handed a starting position.  He only started 12 games a freshman.  

Second, you can keep saying that Mayo was the same player as Blue as a junior, but that won't make it true.  Offensively yes.  Mayo was as good as Blue...but I would argue against weaker competition.  Blue was the much better all around player.  Blue was second team all Big East.  Mayo didn't even receive honorable mention last year.  Blue made the NBA last year.  Mayo won't.

Seriously no one else thinks that 13-14 Mayo was as good as 12-13 Blue.  You've had a thing against Blue since the whole "slap of hand" fiasco, and you continue to let it cloud your judgement.

[MU82]

Two things.  Vander Blue was not handed a starting position.  He only started 12 games a freshman.  

Second, you can keep saying that Mayo was the same player as Blue as a junior, but that won't make it true.  Offensively yes.  Mayo was as good as Blue...but I would argue against weaker competition.  Blue was the much better all around player.  Blue was second team all Big East.  Mayo didn't even receive honorable mention last year.  Blue made the NBA last year.  Mayo won't.

Seriously no one else thinks that 13-14 Mayo was as good as 12-13 Blue.  You've had a thing against Blue since the whole "slap of hand" fiasco, and you continue to let it cloud your judgement.

Not to mention that Blue was reliable and Mayo was a d-bag.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Blue wasn't elite at anything (although I would say he was elite in clutch situations).  But he was very good at everything (3's just ok).

The problem with Gardner is he was bad on D.  A bad defensive rebounder.  He was borderline elite post up offense.

I would rather have very good all around then borderline elite at one thing.

Bingo

[Dr. Blackheart]

MU had a year with no Blue but with Gardner.  How'd that turn out?

[dgies9156]

OK, time to move on.

I hope Vander and Davante do well in the pros.

No news here… lets move on. I

[BallBoy]

+1000 - Garnder was very limited by Buzz's coaching last season.  That max minute backcourt was a huge hinderance to what should have been a 20 and 9 type of campaign.  And why Buzz limited Gardner's minutes - NO, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF CONDITIONING - as Gardner posted higher O-Ratings on average in the games he played over 30, than under 30...

One could argue that Buzz's coaching was limited by Mayo and Gardner. Mayo never wanted to play in a system on offensive or defense. Hence way he only played 23Mins while Thomas played more. In his exit interview Mayo stated as much. Thomas was more reliable so he got minutes. Had Mayo been reliable he would have played. Since he didn't Buzz had to make a series of coaching decisions.

With the loss of Blue and Cadougan MU lost a good portion of their offense. Gardner was supposed to be the guy going into the season. Gardner stated he did not take the gym seriously his senior season.  Due to his lack of stamina he might have played but also wasn't as effective. Gardner was also a one note back to the basket player. On occasion he would take the open 15ft from the free throw line or get the ball on a fast break but rarely did you see him take a baseline jumper. He would back his smaller defender down and get fouled.

Buzz tried to get more minutes for Gardner by putting him to the four. That experiment failed because OX couldn't guard faster players or shooters on the parameter.

Had Gardner expanded his game and got in shape the defense wouldn't need to deny the post up. Gardner was a solid and constant player but was the same player since his freshman year.

This is why I have constantly said MU had a bad team last yr and not just a bad point guard.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU had a year with no Blue but with Gardner.  How'd that turn out?

That year also included Bert being a horse's a$$

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Alien vs. Predator?

[jesmu84]

60-40 Vander. The "ayes" have it

[Lennys Tap]

Best clutch player, best overall player, unquestioned leader and MVP of a Big East Championship and Elite 8 team versus a part time player who is a liability for half of the minutes he plays (defensive minutes). People's expectations for Vander were through the roof. For Davante they were nonexistent. And I understand that Big Sheesh was lovable, Blue not so much. But if we're talking about who was/is better at basketball it's no contest.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Best clutch player, best overall player, unquestioned leader and MVP of a Big East Championship and Elite 8 team versus a part time player who is a liability for half of the minutes he plays (defensive minutes). People's expectations for Vander were through the roof. For Davante they were nonexistent. And I understand that Big Sheesh was lovable, Blue not so much. But if we're talking about who was/is better at basketball it's no contest.

Well, it is a contest. 40% have responded that they feel Gardner was the better college player.

[Galway Eagle]

Well, it is a contest. 40% have responded that they feel Gardner was the better college player.

What percent of those votes are from current freshmen I or sophomores who never saw vander play? What percent of those are angry because he left early?

[NersEllenson]

What percent of those votes are from current freshmen I or sophomores who never saw vander play? What percent of those are angry because he left early?

Not sure that is relevant...what is relevant is actual production

Here's the deal:

One guy - Gardner - Ranked in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in 2 offensive categories, and in 9 categories in the Top 100 of ALL college basketball players.

The other guy - Blue - Didn't rank in the Top 100 of ANY categories on the offensive or defensive end.  Blue's highest rank in categories that hold any value (i.e. - not FG Attempts), was 122nd in FG's made and 164th in Points scored.  On the defensive side of things, Blue wasn't even ranked in the Top 1000 players for Steal Percentage - Steals/Minutes played.

Meanwhile - Blue was awful as a freshman, serviceable as a sophomore, and evolved into a very good player as a Junior.  Gardner, as has been said, by a few who voted against him "didn't improve a whole lot," - he did improve, yet he set a much higher standard of performance than did Blue as a freshman and sophomore.

[BallBoy]

Not sure that is relevant...what is relevant is actual production

Here's the deal:

One guy - Gardner - Ranked in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in 2 offensive categories, and in 9 categories in the Top 100 of ALL college basketball players.

The other guy - Blue - Didn't rank in the Top 100 of ANY categories on the offensive or defensive end.  Blue's highest rank in categories that hold any value (i.e. - not FG Attempts), was 122nd in FG's made and 164th in Points scored.  On the defensive side of things, Blue wasn't even ranked in the Top 1000 players for Steal Percentage - Steals/Minutes played.

Meanwhile - Blue was awful as a freshman, serviceable as a sophomore, and evolved into a very good player as a Junior.  Gardner, as has been said, by a few who voted against him "didn't improve a whole lot," - he did improve, yet he set a much higher standard of performance than did Blue as a freshman and sophomore.

Repeating the same things over and over...

Did Gardner develop a jump hook?  Did he shoot many shots outside of 10 ft? Davante was a very solid contributor but his 2FG%, FT%, RPG all were constant so he did not show radical improvement.  Gardner got to 14 PPG his senior year.  Blue did that his junior year.  Davante's freshman yr he only averaged 9 minutes and 4.6PPG. Blue played 19 minutes and averaged 5.1.  Blue played meaningful minutes.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/davante-gardner

Blue improved his game yr over yr.  His 2FG% and 3FG% went up every year meaning he was becoming a better jump shooter.  His FT% got better every year and his minutes also went up higher.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/vander-blue

To say, "he did improve, yet he set a much higher standard of performance than did Blue as a freshman and sophomore."
is not true.  Gardner barely played as a freshman and as sophomores had comparable stats but Blue was relied on more to play.  Gardner got into better shape which allowed him to play more. 

The fact is that Blue came in with a lot of fanfare while Gardner with little.  When Blue didn't meet the lofty expectations people knocked him.  When Gardner exceeded, everyone crowned him. 

Freshman yr: Blue
Sophomore yr: Blue slight edge -- Ox was more efficient but he could only play 20 minutes a game.  Blue played more and had almost as many rebounds and blocks.  Similar point total.  Blue played much better defense as well.
Junior Yr: Blue

[mu_hilltopper]

Not sure that is relevant...what is relevant is actual production

Here's the deal:

One guy - Gardner - Ranked in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in 2 offensive categories, and in 9 categories in the Top 100 of ALL college basketball players.

The other guy - Blue - Didn't rank in the Top 100 of ANY categories on the offensive or defensive end.  Blue's highest rank in categories that hold any value (i.e. - not FG Attempts), was 122nd in FG's made and 164th in Points scored.  On the defensive side of things, Blue wasn't even ranked in the Top 1000 players for Steal Percentage - Steals/Minutes played.

Meanwhile - Blue was awful as a freshman, serviceable as a sophomore, and evolved into a very good player as a Junior.  Gardner, as has been said, by a few who voted against him "didn't improve a whole lot," - he did improve, yet he set a much higher standard of performance than did Blue as a freshman and sophomore.

+10000000.  People who voted Vander .. please read the above, over and over and over.