Poll: If Crean Never Left

[Texas Western]

Here is a poll for the Dog Days of summer. What do you think the trajectory of our program would have been if Crean stayed?

[Galway Eagle]

I chose Chicos would have half as many posts. 

[HutchwasClutch]

I think plenty more NCAA tourney appearances, doubtful the threepeat of Sweet 16's though.

[We R Final Four]

Depends.....if he ever decided to implement a viable press break the sky was the limit.

[River rat]

Well those are wide ranging options.  I think he would be a make the tourney 3-4 yrars out of 5 with little postseason success.  Thats who he is.

[Tums Festival]

Well those are wide ranging options.  I think he would be a make the tourney 3-4 yrars out of 5 with little postseason success.  Thats who he is.

I think you're correct here, the caveat being if he signs Zaire Wade.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I think it was time for him to leave. We are seeing a repeat at Indiana of what we witnessed at Marquette. Initial enthusiasm by fanbase and youth coaches/recruiting base followed by the realization that they can't stomach the horse's ass any longer.

No way he would have duplicated the success of Buzz.

I am starting to think coaching turnover, within reason, is a good thing for Marquette. I loved Buzz and was sorry he chose to leave, but the transition to Wojo has been so cleansing that it reminds me of the delousing scene in "The Shawshank Redemption."

[MUDPT]

The '09 team would have been really, really good.  Add the 4 awesome players with Mbakwe and Ty Taylor. That team was 12-2 in the Big East, before James went down.  They proceeded to lose to UConn (#1 seed, Final 4), Louisville (#1 seed, E8), Pitt (#1 seed, E8), Syracuse (#3 seed, S16) and Nova (#3 seed, Final 4).  Had a great chance to beat Syracuse and should have beat Nova in the BET.  That team MIGHT have had Jimmy Butler too, I know that's a stretch.  You have to have some luck in the tournament, either way.  The next season coming back you would have had Taylor, Mbakwe and Lazar.  Who knows what would have happened then.

[The Equalizer]

The '09 team would have been really, really good.  Add the 4 awesome players with Mbakwe and Ty Taylor. That team was 12-2 in the Big East, before James went down.  They proceeded to lose to UConn (#1 seed, Final 4), Louisville (#1 seed, E8), Pitt (#1 seed, E8), Syracuse (#3 seed, S16) and Nova (#3 seed, Final 4).  Had a great chance to beat Syracuse and should have beat Nova in the BET.  That team MIGHT have had Jimmy Butler too, I know that's a stretch.  You have to have some luck in the tournament, either way.  The next season coming back you would have had Taylor, Mbakwe and Lazar.  Who knows what would have happened then.

2009 would have absolutely been a championship calibre team with Taylor and Mbakwe on the roster in addition to the Amigos and Hayward.

I'll disagree with your comment on an outside chance that Butler would have been on that team. I don't think there is any way he would have wound up here--had Crean stayed we were already oversubscribed on scholarships by one. Christopherson and Mbakwe wouldn't have left and  Nick Willilams and Tyshawn Taylor wouldn't asked for their release. Not only do we not have room to add Bulter, we would have had one player depart.

In 2010 we'd have been in a much stronger position. No Butler on the roster, but with the departures of the Amigos and Buzz as the primary recruiter, there is no reason to suspect that we wouldn't have still landed DJO and Buycks for that season--especially given that Crean orginally recruited DJO out of HS. We'd still have Taylor, Mbakwe and Christopherson. 

2011 Taylor would be coming into his own, we still have DJO and Buycks, one more year for Mbakwe and Christopherson. With Buzz still doing the recruiting, landing Blue and Crowder would still be strong possiblities.

And all that is before we consider what might have happened if Crean had lured Christian Watford (from Alabama) or Victor Oladipo (Maryland) to MU. 

[4everwarriors]

I'd be a Badger fan.

[Jay Bee]

Re: Tyshawn Taylor... I think some of you need to look at history and what level he truly played at. You're overstating his value. IMO. Point plankn

[dgies9156]

Re: Tyshawn Taylor... I think some of you need to look at history and what level he truly played at. You're overstating his value. IMO. Point plankn

Maybe Jaybee, but perhaps he was out of place at Kansas and he would have had a more effective role at Marquette.

You may be right, who knows after all.

[MUDPT]

Re: Tyshawn Taylor... I think some of you need to look at history and what level he truly played at. You're overstating his value. IMO. Point plankn

Didn't he knock over Jason Kidd's drink last season?

[keefe]

And all that is before we consider what might have happened if Crean had lured Christian Watford (from Alabama) or Victor Oladipo (Maryland) to MU. 

We would have lost in the first weekend?

[WarriorFan]

I think the outcome would have been roughly the same results-wise.  Crean and Buzz weren't much different.  Both egomaniacal, driven, high caliber recruiters.  Buzz was a much better game coach strategically, but his sub patterns undermined his strategy by limiting the player's achievements.  Crean limited his player's achievements by not having and not adjusting in-game strategy.  I cannot believe that hoops smart MU tolerated this as long as we did, and I'm amazed that hoops smart hoosiers tolerate it at all. 
Bottom line, had Crean stayed, we would have been looking for a new coach last year or this year because tanned tommy's tactics would have caught up with him, too.

[tower912]

I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

[keefe]

I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

This is absolutely correct though I would say 2-3 wins over 6 years might be generous. The man is overrated. I think we will soon hear the steady thrum of war drums along the Wabash as the I4 Faithful grow tired of persistent mediocrity. The Bronzed Beast has had his Wade-derived 15 minutes.

[77ncaachamps]

The fact that we couldn't build off of Wade's Final Four run was telling. There were some disappointing years between 2003 and the 3 Amigos really coming of age.

The inability of Crean to recruit a big and his reaches in the late signing period are indications of CTC's limits at MU.

Hence, Option 4.

[Dawson Rental]

I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

I think that you are spot on.  Of course, this scenario doesn't fit any of the choices given as possible poll answers as it lies solidly in the area between the third and fourth choices neither of which fit.

[77ncaachamps]

This is absolutely correct though I would say 2-3 wins over 6 years might be generous. The man is overrated. I think we will soon hear the steady thrum of war drums along the Wabash as the I4 Faithful grow tired of persistent mediocrity. The Bronzed Beast has had his Wade-derived 15 minutes.

I hope this thread makes it to Peegs.

Look at his talented Zeller-Oladipo team: Sweet 16 is an under-achievement.

I think Crean wants IU to be a UK: top talent coming in every year just to save his job. Let the talent (a la Wade) win and cover up your shortcomings. In the end, they make you look good.

Problem will be if Crean has another dry spell like at MU. It's going to quickly nosedive (luckily II,II) and he'll further alienate the fans.

A lot of young bucks on the club: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Indiana_Hoosiers_men's_basketball_team

[willie warrior]

If Crean never left, the team would now have Karate suits for their warm-ups; they would all enter the floor on ATV's; and there would be a tanning booth with sign up schedule in the locker room--attendance mandatory. The Harbaughs would be delivering pre game speeches, and as always, Creans balls would be in Joanie's vice grip. And Wade would be sporting MU shorts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If Crean never left, the team would now have Karate suits for their warm-ups; they would all enter the floor on ATV's; and there would be a tanning booth with sign up schedule in the locker room--attendance mandatory. The Harbaughs would be delivering pre game speeches, and as always, Creans balls would be in Joanie's vice grip. And Wade would be sporting MU shorts.

This part came true regardless of Crean leaving!

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44505.0

[The Equalizer]

I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, but seeing all of these head scratching games listed next to each other is a bit eye opening. We lost a lot of games due to some poor in game coaching by Buzz.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

We should've won every game when Buzz was here. Every damn one!