Interesting outside perspective on big time basketball and Buzz

[mu03eng]

This isn't the only board I follow, also a poster on a Penn State SB Nation board(for football) but occasionally there are basketball articles.  The one below is from the PSU basketball(which is horrible) and why they can't just throw money at a coach and expect positive results.

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2014/7/15/5898803/penn-state-basketball-larry-brown-buzz-williams-pat-chambers-hire-big-name-coach

Not that we really need another thread on Buzz, but I thought there was some good perspective from the outside on the old regime, albeit with a bit of a grudge.  Also a good perspective on why we should be grateful for the program we have and the investment the AD and Board make in the program.

[NersEllenson]

Nice find.  Very interesting.  If coaching fails, Buzz would be a hell of an agent!

[mu_hilltopper]

Wow .. the word "excoriated" comes to mind, in respect to his comments on Buzz.

[GGGG]

This is why the line about him leaving for less money doesn't make sense.  Of his $2.8M, that wasn't all straight salary.  A good portion of that was payments to "Team Buzz Williams" very similar to what he has in his Virginia Tech contract. 

[keefe]

This isn't the only board I follow, also a poster on a Penn State SB Nation board(for football)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Oscar


Here's a link to a proud tradition

http://umgoblue.com/

[bilsu]

The article started out questioning whether Penn St should pay big dollars for a successful big name coach and if that would change their basketball fortunes? What struck me is when was the last time MU hired a head coach that anyone heard of? In spite of that MU has had great success starting with the McGuire hire, who was a little known coach from Belmont Abbey. Raymonds, Majerus, O'Neil, Crean, Williams and Wojo were all assistant coaches when hired. I know I had never heard of Bob Dukiet and Mike Dean before MU hired them and you could argue that they showed why it is better to hire a young assistant.

The other thing I learned from the article was that Minnesota won the NIT.

[brandx]

Wow .. the word "excoriated" comes to mind, in respect to his comments on Buzz.

Indeed! And well deserved as well.

[Windyplayer]

The other thing I learned from the article was that Minnesota won the NIT.

I could read this over and over and if someone asked me tomorrow who won the NIT, the question would be met with a blank stare.

[mu03eng]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Oscar


Here's a link to a proud tradition

http://umgoblue.com/

Didn't realize tradition allowed 50 years between national championships  

[mu03eng]

The article started out questioning whether Penn St should pay big dollars for a successful big name coach and if that would change their basketball fortunes? What struck me is when was the last time MU hired a head coach that anyone heard of? In spite of that MU has had great success starting with the McGuire hire, who was a little known coach from Belmont Abbey. Raymonds, Majerus, O'Neil, Crean, Williams and Wojo were all assistant coaches when hired. I know I had never heard of Bob Dukiet and Mike Dean before MU hired them and you could argue that they showed why it is better to hire a young assistant.

The other thing I learned from the article was that Minnesota won the NIT.

But keep in mind, MU has a winning tradition before the modern era.  I think it is much harder to build a winning program now then to keep one going.  Yes there were lean years in the 90s but it wasn't too tough to resurrect the tradition and passion to use as recruiting tool.  Plus location matters if you don't have a winning tradition....recruits are a heckuva lot more tempted by Florida Gulf Coast than some state university in the middle of the Pocono mountains where the next largest population size is the federal prison 45 minutes down the road.

[GGGG]

I will point out that this article was written from perspective that seemed to look to justify why a program shouldn't pay big bucks for a basketball coach.

However, my guess is that if Chambers was fired by PSU, and they hired Buzz for a deal similar to what he got at VPI, that the PSU fanbase would be pretty happy about it. 

[mu03eng]

I will point out that this article was written from perspective that seemed to look to justify why a program shouldn't pay big bucks for a basketball coach.

However, my guess is that if Chambers was fired by PSU, and they hired Buzz for a deal similar to what he got at VPI, that the PSU fanbase would be pretty happy about it. 

If you look at a lot of the comments, at least the internet majority disagree with you.  Some schools might, but I doubt PSU bball fans would be ok with it, especially given the ridiculously lucrative contract and the lack of institutional control that seems to come with it that VT signed up for.

That contract is just begging for trouble given some of Williams propensity to "see the best side of things" that also conveniently helps his side of things.  IMHO

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If you look at a lot of the comments, at least the internet majority disagree with you.  Some schools might, but I doubt PSU bball fans would be ok with it, especially given the ridiculously lucrative contract and the lack of institutional control that seems to come with it that VT signed up for.

That contract is just begging for trouble given some of Williams propensity to "see the best side of things" that also conveniently helps his side of things.  IMHO

I think that's just the hypocrisy of fans.

When Buzz was here, a lot of people were lovin' his down home charm.

The minute he left, people hated it.

Logically, you are correct, of course, but we know fans don't always use logic much (if at all).

[Lennys Tap]

If you look at a lot of the comments, at least the internet majority disagree with you.  Some schools might, but I doubt PSU bball fans would be ok with it, especially given the ridiculously lucrative contract and the lack of institutional control that seems to come with it that VT signed up for.

Yeah, the majority of Penn State fans would never go for a situation where there's a lack of institutional control over any part of the athletic department. LOL

[mu03eng]

Yeah, the majority of Penn State fans would never go for a situation where there's a lack of institutional control over any part of the athletic department. LOL

Let's just not go there...doesn't end well for anybody.

[ecc5051]

Most of the kids today are recruited by the coach and not by the tradition of the school. Why do you think all the recruits followed Buzz down south? A great recruiter/coach can make any school a winner.

[ChicosBailBonds]

SMU is trying this with Larry Brown, and I'd argue with success, but how limiting due to his age, etc?

Texas Tech with Bobby Knight.

San Diego State with Fisher

Northwestern trying with Collins.


Buzz will do well at Va Tech.

[Tugg Speedman]

SMU is trying this with Larry Brown, and I'd argue with success, but how limiting due to his age, etc?

Texas Tech with Bobby Knight.
San Diego State with Fisher
Northwestern trying with Collins.

Buzz will do well at Va Tech.

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

[Dawson Rental]

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

Whatever happens this year, I think that buzz gets a mulligan.  After that, the expectation is that VT will regularly finish in the top half of the conference.  Most years that should include a NCAA invite with a NIT invite on the few occasions that the ACC has a down year.  All this means in a 15 team ACC is that VT must consistently finish at the top of the heap of those teams finishing behind Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Virgina until, of course, VT joins the aforementioned teams in the scrum for the ACC's top spot.

Anyway, that's what VT's AD stated when he was announcing the job opening.  I've got to think that in reality (especially given the way Buzz is protected in his contract) the expectations will be less.  If not, Buzz is facing a challenge at least as big as what he ran away from here.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

Well, according to his salary, they should be in the tourny every year.

However, a school like VT has to overpay because coaches know it's a tough(er) place to win.

So, realistically, success for Buzz@VT would probably be:

10 seasons (he probably won't make that long, but it's a nice round number)
- 4 tourny bids
- 1 sweet sixteen
- finish middle of the conf. or better 6+ times
- Top 4 in the conference 2 times

Now, these are off the top of my head, so these are just ideas of what "success" at VT might look like. Maybe an additional tourny run somewhere in there?

[Tugg Speedman]

Whatever happens this year, I think that buzz gets a mulligan.  After that, the expectation is that VT will regularly finish in the top half of the conference.  Most years that should include a NCAA invite with a NIT invite on the few occasions that the ACC has a down year.  All this means in a 15 team ACC is that VT must consistently finish at the top of the heap of those teams finishing behind Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Virgina until, of course, VT joins the aforementioned teams in the scrum for the ACC's top spot.

Anyway, that's what VT's AD stated when he was announcing the job opening.  I've got to think that in reality (especially given the way Buzz is protected in his contract) the expectations will be less.  If not, Buzz is facing a challenge at least as big as what he ran away from here.

You listed 6 of the 15 teams.  If VT is 7th on this list (middle of the ACC) then they are expected to be a better program than ND, Pitt, Maryland, Wake, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech and Clemson.

You think this is realistic?

Here is my point, for Brent everything is riding on next year's recruiting class.  If we assume he finishes last this year in the ACC (safe assumption), if he does not get some players this fall/winter to commit, then they get no buzz (no pun intended) and Brent falls into invisibility in the very bottom of the ACC.  No press, no attention, no excitement.  He becomes a trivia question.

Remember VT is not IU.  VT's name alone does not get it attention like IU.  VT's attention now is Brent.  And to keep it going he has to either win (which he will not do next year) or get recruits.

Goodman and Katz are not going to waste their time with stories and attention for the 10th to 13th best ACC team with the 35th to 41st best recruiting class.

Disagree?  You think he can stink and not get good recruits for two years and still have the cache to turn it around?

[tower912]

That is what JUCO's are for.   Buzz is never going to be out of it as long as he can recruit JUCO's.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

Since 1987, they have been to two NCAA tournaments, only one in the last 18 years.  Greenberg got them close, but couldn't do it repeatedly.  Success, IMO, would be to make it 2 times in a 5 year period, something they haven't done since the mid 80's. 

[Tugg Speedman]

That is what JUCO's are for.   Buzz is never going to be out of it as long as he can recruit JUCO's.

I'm not saying he will not do it, I'm saying his time line is very short.

And yes, he better reach into the Juco hat and pull out a Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks and/or DJO this fall.  He cannot reach in and pull out a Montrele Clark, TJ Taylor or Jameel McKay.

[Lennys Tap]

At Marquette, success for Buzz was being our best coach ever not named Al McGuire. No Al in V Tech's history book. Success will be being their #1 basketball coach ever. Anything less will be failure.