Is Dwyane Wade the 2nd Best 2 Guard of All Time?

[Avenue Commons]

MJ is No. 1.

Kobe has the strongest argument for No. 2.

But if Dwyane retires with 4-6 rings, can't there be a real argument for him as No. 2?

His stats are closer to Kobe than you might think.

[Galway Eagle]

I'd put Clyde Drexler and Kobe between him and MJ but he's definitely top 5. 

[brandx]

MJ is No. 1.

Kobe has the strongest argument for No. 2.

But if Dwyane retires with 4-6 rings, can't there be a real argument for him as No. 2?

His stats are closer to Kobe than you might think.

Dwayne is top 5 - but absolutely not in Kobe's class. Dwayne is as far behind Kobe as Kobe is behind MJ. And you obviously never saw the Big 'O' play.

[Goose]

Lot of guys ahead of him, but fantastic player and career.

[patso]

D Wade is my favorite player ever.

[ThatDude]

D Wade is my favorite player ever.

Ditto

[willie warrior]

I'd put Clyde Drexler and Kobe between him and MJ but he's definitely top 5. 

Drexler: No. Kobe belongs in the police lineup.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Dwayne is top 5 - but absolutely not in Kobe's class. Dwayne is as far behind Kobe as Kobe is behind MJ. And you obviously never saw the Big 'O' play.

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[keefe]

Dwayne is top 5 - but absolutely not in Kobe's class. Dwayne is as far behind Kobe as Kobe is behind MJ. And you obviously never saw the Big 'O' play.

Big O was a 1 but you would take him every time over Wade. He was in a league of his own. 

[MUMonster03]

Even if he gets 4-6 you run into the problem that he wasn't the guy on those. He was the guy for the 1st one. But has won/will have won the rest with Lebron.

Kobe has 5, but he was only the best player on the team for 2 of those.

[GGGG]

I'd put Clyde Drexler and Kobe between him and MJ but he's definitely top 5.  

Clyde Drexler?  DWade is behind Kobe...but way better than Drexler.  

Drexler never came close to doing what Wade did in the 05-06 playoffs.  Wade has better career ppg, apg and FG%.  In short, Wade's peak was way higher and his averages are better.  Believe me, I pretty much saw both of these guys play their entire careers and there isn't a chance that I would take Clyde before Dwyane.

In fact the only reason I put Kobe ahead of Wade is the outside shooting...but even then you may have to put Jerry West in between Kobe and Wade.

[🏀]

MJ

Kobe

Wade/Drexler/West/Jones/Iverson

[MU82]

Without question, Jordan, West and Kobe over Wade, who in turn is a step or two above Drexler and others mentioned.

One thing I like to look at: Who took his team's biggest shots. That is any star's role, and especially when that star is a SG.

Obviously Jordan. Despite the presence of Goodrich, Baylor and Chamberlain, Jerry West took almost every big shot the Lakers had during his era. Same with Kobe; the Lakers had Shaq, but Kobe was the crunch-time assassin. So in addition to being simply great, those 3 were the greatest when it counted most.

Wade had that role for only one of his runs to the Finals, the year it was him and Shaq. He remains an excellent player now, but the ball is not in his hands at crunch time. He has become a role player -- a great, great role player, but a role player nonetheless. Ray Allen is more likely to take a game-changing shot than Wade is.

I'm a huge Wade fan and I actually root for the Heat because he is there. And there's no shame in being "only" the 4th greatest SG in history.

And BTW, if Magic was a PG (and he was), so was Oscar, obviously. The two greatest at that position ever.

[NYWarrior]

Wade's efficiency is incredible, which causes him to be somewhat underrated in an all-time context. He has completely taken on a different role in the last few years, but become a more devastating performer along the way. 52% from the field last year, nearly 55% this year... as a SG?  49.2% for a career as a SG?  That's rare & incredible.

FWIW, Kobe has never shot 47% from the field for a full season, he's a career 45% shooter.

DWade has shot better than 47% that nine times, Mrs. Bueller. The year Wade won the scoring title he still made 49% of his shots.  The guy is nothing short of sublime.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1987/dwyane-wade

Easily a top 5 all-time shooting guard, and has been for some time.  Imagine if he ever /tried/ to shoot a lot, or had a gunner's mentality.  Add a title this year and let's elevate him over Kobe where he belongs.

[brandx]

And BTW, if Magic was a PG (and he was), so was Oscar, obviously. The two greatest at that position ever.

Hard to say on Oscar. Technically, probably a PG, but he was a big-time scorer - averaged over 30 ppg in his prime. Also a big time assist man and rebounder. Not a classic PG - much more of a combo guard.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We are skewed by whom we see play recently.  The players of the past, no one saw so they are not considered as good.  Our memories are short.

It is Dwyane, not Dwayne

He's a great player, hard to rate players from one generation to the other, or even within generations because of who surrounds them on their team,  what other great players stand in their way for titles, etc.

[CTWarrior]

You guys are forgetting Jerry West.  Dwyane great, but no real argument to be not as good as Kobe, MJ, or West (or Oscar Robertson for that matter).  Back when West and Robertson played, there weren't exactly point guard and shooting guards.  There were just guards, and the guards traded roles throughout the game, so hard to classify them as PGs or SGs.

[brandx]

You guys are forgetting Jerry West.  Dwyane great, but no real argument to be not as good as Kobe, MJ, or West (or Oscar Robertson for that matter).  Back when West and Robertson played, there weren't exactly point guard and shooting guards.  There were just guards, and the guards traded roles throughout the game, so hard to classify them as PGs or SGs.

That's correct to some extent and was my earlier point on Oscar. But there were some pure PGs back in the day - Cousy, Wilkens, Rodgers,etc.

Even today - it is hard to pinpoint guys like Curry or Westbrook who play the PG position but are really combo guards, as was a guy like Iverson. These are guys that look to score first. Even MJ could be considered a combo guard. He brought the ball upcourt a lot of the time and controlled the ball more that anyone else on the team.

[willie warrior]

Big O was a 1 but you would take him every time over Wade. He was in a league of his own. 

Absolutely on the Big O. Kobe was and is a punk. That rules him out. Tough to pick a top 5. So many greats. West, Big O, Sam Jones, Wade, Kobe (for the convict lovers), and about 10 others that we have forgotten.

[WarriorFan]

DW over Kobe easily.  Basketball is a team game and DW is a team player.  Kobe is not.  Kobe only won when when paired with another superstar, when alone, he's only destroyed teams. DW makes teams better. 

Plus, it's kinda fun watching DW play old man basketball in the NBA.  The way he's changed his game as his body has changed and his knees have worsened is amazing.

[GGGG]

DW over Kobe easily.  Basketball is a team game and DW is a team player.  Kobe is not.  Kobe only won when when paired with another superstar, when alone, he's only destroyed teams. DW makes teams better. 

Who was Kobe paired with when they won titles in '09 and '10?  Pau Gasol?  Lamar Odom? 

Kobe dropped 29-30 ppg in both of those playoff runs.  He was fantastic.

[ChicosBailBonds]

DW over Kobe easily.  Basketball is a team game and DW is a team player.  Kobe is not.  Kobe only won when when paired with another superstar, when alone, he's only destroyed teams. DW makes teams better. 

Plus, it's kinda fun watching DW play old man basketball in the NBA.  The way he's changed his game as his body has changed and his knees have worsened is amazing.

I'm no Kobe fan, in fact I can't stand him.  That being said, I can guarantee you many Kobe lovers out here would make the same argument about Wade.  He won his titles with LeBron and Shaq, just as Kobe won his titles with another star.   When Wade didn't have the stars, the team tanked.  So I don't think your argument holds.

[Aughnanure]

MJ

Kobe

Wade/Drexler/West/Jones/Iverson

Iverson?  We're talking SG.

[WarriorFan]

I'm no Kobe fan, in fact I can't stand him.  That being said, I can guarantee you many Kobe lovers out here would make the same argument about Wade.  He won his titles with LeBron and Shaq, just as Kobe won his titles with another star.   When Wade didn't have the stars, the team tanked.  So I don't think your argument holds.

OK, let me put it differently.  "stars" (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, LeBron, Bosh) WANT to play on the same team as Wade.  With Kobe, they know that until the game allows more than one ball on the court, they'll never get their chance.  15-20 years from now, Kobe will be viewed similar to Allen Iverson.  Big time scorers for a long time who never understood why those other 4 guys were on the court.  Both were great players with incredible athleticism and were fun to watch, especially when they were "on".  But watch Kobe on an off night and you learn how not to play basketball.

Plus, DW's version of old man basketball - with the scoops and runners and flips - is much more interesting than Kobe's ISO/jump shot routine.  And the shooting percentage proves it's more successful.  

[GGGG]

OK, let me put it differently.  "stars" (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, LeBron, Bosh) WANT to play on the same team as Wade.  With Kobe, they know that until the game allows more than one ball on the court, they'll never get their chance.  15-20 years from now, Kobe will be viewed similar to Allen Iverson.  Big time scorers for a long time who never understood why those other 4 guys were on the court.  Both were great players with incredible athleticism and were fun to watch, especially when they were "on".  But watch Kobe on an off night and you learn how not to play basketball.

Career FGAs per 36 minutes:

MJ: 21.5
KB: 19.3
DW: 17.4

So I'm not exactly sure what you are criticizing here.  Yeah Kobe takes a lot of shots.  Every superstar 2G does. 

And Kobe is a much better defender than Wade.