Buzz's Earnings at MU Peaked in 2010

[tower912]

He wasn't doing it to spite you.   He was doing it because he thought it gave the team the best chance to win. 

[Goose]

TAMU

This past season was the worst basketball experience I can remember as a fan. The number of people I know (long, long time fans) were disgusted and checked out early in the season out of frustration. I checked out at 10pm on New Year's eve and forced myself to at least pay attention. Going from E8 to check out before New Years is something I could not never imagine. Can only speak for myself, but I can handle losing and not making NCAA without much issue. The check out was caused by decisions and attitude of the coach and not wins or losses.

To compare last season with Dukie era is apples and oranges. We were dead program at the end of his run and I was pulling for losses to force a change. Buzz was on top of the world after E8 and in less than two months of season had lost many fans. That really shocked me because he really was a fan favorite.

For the record, I respect your posts and knowledge of MU ball. I am roughly twice your age and obviously have different perspective of things. IMO Buzz was long gone prior to the March departure and it sure looked like he coached that way. You called the Wojo hire and I am all on board to see how he does. Time to look ahead.

[tower912]

Goose, maybe there was a different vibe in the arena than I got watching on television.   I never once got an inkling while watching on TV that Buzz had checked out.   I was watching the defensive signs, and thinking that it was a great idea and how said it was that upperclassmen needed that.   I was watching close game after close game, the same kind that MU had won the previous 5 years.   This year, there was never that defensive stop, never that big play to push the team over the top.   I watched Buzz shedding his coat and running on the floor and bouncing all over the place.    To my eyes, watching every game with rapt attention on TV, Buzz looked exactly the same as he had the previous 5 years.   The substitution patterns were the same, the reliance on upperclassmen was the same, the offensive/defensive schemes were the same.   I could predict subs and defensive switches.   I knew where the ball was going, I knew what the switches were going to be, I could predict the matchups.    The only difference was the results.   Maybe things were different in the arena.   

[Goose]

Tower

A disclaimer on my posts, I believed and still believe Buzz was gone a year ago without the E8 run. The long run delayed his departure by a year. So, as the season progressed it appeared to me he was making a point. No doubt he worked his ass of at the games and no gripe there. Cannot tell you the number of times I heard from people that know basketball that they could not believe the decisions being made.

Hey, I appreciate all the action and excitement the guy provided. I lean more to Buzz's style of recruiting than I probably will with Wojo's, but time will tell. The exact reason why I liked Buzz is in many ways probably the exact reasons why he is not here anymore. I have different take on things and believe 99% of coaches are slippery and that is part of the game.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

This is an interesting debate, but I hardly believe it can be binary.
- Was the team uninspired vs. past years - yes
- Were the rotations frustrating - yes
- Did the players not execute at time - absolutely

For me the season is personified by a couple things - D Wilson walking the ball up the court when time is elapsing in two close games, Gardner's body language - all the time and Jamil passing to D Wilson to take the final shot in the regular season.

Frankly who knows the intent behind anything - conscious or subconscious.  The fact is some players didn't progress & the team seemed uninspired.  Strategy, execution and personnel were all off.  

In many cases a coach recognizes this and starts to play for the future -- ours didn't, doubled down and lost the entire team in the process.  At its worst it is malicious intent and at its best it is a mistake to be corrected in the future.  Who knows -- He kinda crazy.

[keefe]

Dukiet scored in that department for me.

Dukiet never had a pre-season favorite to win the conference, either. Last year should not have happened. Someone with insight pointed out to me that the truest indication that something was amiss last season was that virtually every player was fed up with the head coach. Had Bert not left there would have been a mass exodus of players.

People watching from afar can make whatever judgments and draw any conclusions. But if the players are in open rebellion I would say that there is a real problem. A squadron full of pissed off pilots tends not to win the war.

[keefe]

I am confident I won't be.

Misplaced confidence can be a terrible thing. There is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.

[GGGG]

That's your opinion, just like I stated mine. I never said he was sacrificing victories...I said he was giving playing time to two players that a lot a fans (myself included) didn't think should be getting that amount of time. If there was ever a coach who would be stubborn and roll like that, it would be Buzz. You didn't detect the irritation when he spoke about Derrick's abilities and why anyone would question his choice for playing time?

If you don't think he was sacrificing victories, then logically you have to admit that Buzz was playing the best lineup possible to win immediately...or at least wouldn't lose any more than any other line up would lose.

Fans are idiots.  They shouldn't determine who gets playing time.  Do you think Coach K, Bill Self or Tom Izzo bases their playing time decisions based on what "a lot of fans" think?  Of course not. 

[willie warrior]

If you don't think he was sacrificing victories, then logically you have to admit that Buzz was playing the best lineup possible to win immediately...or at least wouldn't lose any more than any other line up would lose.

Fans are idiots.  They shouldn't determine who gets playing time.  Do you think Coach K, Bill Self or Tom Izzo bases their playing time decisions based on what "a lot of fans" think?  Of course not. 

Here goes the Sultan again with his process of "logic". Numbnuts Buzz did sacrifice victories--17-15 playing his idiot game of player minutes. That result is proven. Because somebody does not come out and say he was sacrificing victories, does not mean that Buzz was playing the best players as you continue to defend Buzz on. His blind stubbornness of playing the same fiddle while losing his butt, sacrificed victories. You can give him the benefit of doubt that it was his belief that he was doing the right thing, but that does not mean he was playing the best guys. That does not necessarily follow. But just as Buzz had blind stubbornness, the Sultan has blind slurpiness of Buzz.
Buzz is gone, badmouthing the BEast whenever he can, even though the coaches (who everybody believes know the best) picked MU to win the BEast. Buzz got his ass kicked, and was shown the door. Good riddance. But the Sultan will continue to profess that Buzz knew best by playing the best players. "In Buzz we trust."
The "aw shucks, downhome lonesome cowpoke" continues to be the Sultan's boy, and always will. That is OK--he fooled a bunch of people.
Have to admire the Sultan's tenacity on defending the Buzzster.

[GGGG]

Here goes the Sultan again with his process of "logic". Numbnuts Buzz did sacrifice victories-

Wojo'sMojo doesn't seem to think so.  Take it up with him.  Or you can continue to slurp me by mentioning me five times in one post.  Whatever floats your boat.

[Lennys Tap]

Here goes the Sultan again with his process of "logic".

You counter Sultan's logic with a long, smug, meandering personal attack of both him and Buzz. Sticking to the high ground.

[keefe]

If you don't think he was sacrificing victories, then logically you have to admit that Buzz was playing the best lineup possible to win immediately...or at least wouldn't lose any more than any other line up would lose.

Fans are idiots.  They shouldn't determine who gets playing time.  Do you think Coach K, Bill Self or Tom Izzo bases their playing time decisions based on what "a lot of fans" think?  Of course not. 

I was going to stay out of this but Sultan, you are guilty of the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

[Lennys Tap]

TAMU

This past season was the worst basketball experience I can remember as a fan. The number of people I know (long, long time fans) were disgusted and checked out early in the season out of frustration. I checked out at 10pm on New Year's eve and forced myself to at least pay attention. Going from E8 to check out before New Years is something I could not never imagine. Can only speak for myself, but I can handle losing and not making NCAA without much issue. The check out was caused by decisions and attitude of the coach and not wins or losses.

Goose

We are both long time fans and I agree that this season was painful. I disagree that Buzz "checked out". You did - and you admit it. You want to blame your checking out on decisions and attitudes of the coach, fine. I heard the same thing from friends in February of 1977. They checked out because they thought Al had. To very loud boos we lost our final 3 home games. Bill Neary (not half the player Derrick Wilson is) was starting over Bernard Toone (3 times the player John Dawson will ever be) and "seashells and balloons" was officially over. But the team had 4 NBA players and the college POY. They rallied to win 3 straight road games and got the LAST at large bid to the tournament at halftime of their final regular season game. Then won the whole thing. This year's team didn't have the horses to come back like the 77 Warriors, but they fought hard down the stretch, losing one heartbreaker after another. Buzz (prophetically) had warned people when MU was on top that the margin between success and failure was razor thin. We were mostly on the right side of that margin for 5 glorious years. Fans got spoiled. The minute that worm turned some fans bailed. Not because they were frontrunners, mind you. Not because we were losing, mind you - but because the COACH had changed. Really? I can't think of anything more self serving than that but I'm not surprised. I saw it in 1977 during AL's last year and he was the greatest.

[Wojo'sMojo]

If you don't think he was sacrificing victories, then logically you have to admit that Buzz was playing the best lineup possible to win immediately...or at least wouldn't lose any more than any other line up would lose.

Fans are idiots.  They shouldn't determine who gets playing time.  Do you think Coach K, Bill Self or Tom Izzo bases their playing time decisions based on what "a lot of fans" think?  Of course not. 

I do think he was sacrificing potential victories, I just said I haven't said that. Nobody knows what would have happened, had we played Dawson and JJJ more instead of Derrick and Jake. I'm of the opinion that we would have won more games, but nobody knows for certain. When I say Buzz was making a point, it is in reference to him continually sticking to his chosen starters even when the ship was obviously sinking. He was making the decision that he was gonna win with his anointed preferences, or we were going to lose and he was ok with that, because they played to the scouting report or practiced harder. He's the coach and he can do whatever he wanted. He also proved to be very thin skinned and makes me wonder why he was so standoffish and stubborn when asked about playing time.

[GGGG]

I was going to stay out of this but Sultan, you are guilty of the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

I don't think so.  I said this:  "If you don't think he was sacrificing victories, then logically you have to admit that Buzz was playing the best lineup possible to win immediately...or at least wouldn't lose any more than any other line up would lose."

Since there are only two outcomes of a college basketball game (win or loss), if you don't think he was "sacrificing victories," then you must therefore think that he was trying to win.  

And if he was trying to win, then he must have either played the line up that he thought was the best option to win, OR he chose to play what he felt was one of two (or more) equal line ups.

Therefore, the line up choices he made were not to "make a point," but to win games.  As I see it, the only way the "make a point" suggestion makes sense, is if he was purposely playing players who were inferior (in his mind), and therefore "sacrificing victories."

[GGGG]

I do think he was sacrificing potential victories, I just said I haven't said that. Nobody knows what would have happened, had we played Dawson and JJJ more instead of Derrick and Jake. I'm of the opinion that we would have won more games, but nobody knows for certain. When I say Buzz was making a point, it is in reference to him continually sticking to his chosen starters even when the ship was obviously sinking. He was making the decision that he was gonna win with his anointed preferences, or we were going to lose and he was ok with that, because they played to the scouting report or practiced harder. He's the coach and he can do whatever he wanted. He also proved to be very thin skinned and makes me wonder why he was so standoffish and stubborn when asked about playing time.

Well, this is pretty much logically the only stance you have to take.  And it goes back to my post from before.  I don't think Buzz was intentionally sacrificing victories in order "to make a point."  He may have sacrificed victories by making wrong choices, and that's a matter of debate, but that's a different matter entirely.

[willie warrior]

You counter Sultan's logic with a long, smug, meandering personal attack of both him and Buzz. Sticking to the high ground.

Lenny, the personal attack was on Buzz. I even complimented Sultan on his tenacity for the same old defense argument. When it comes to smugness, Lenny, I defer to your's.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny, the personal attack was on Buzz. I even complimented Sultan on his tenacity for the same old defense argument. When it comes to smugness, Lenny, I defer to your's.

So when you put his "logic" in quotes and call him a slurper and a fool for falling for the lonesome cowboy it's really a compliment because you say he's tenacious about it. No personal attack or smugness there, Willie.

[NersEllenson]

Buzz was simply really bad last year.  I don't disagree with some who say his approach last year was the same as its always been:  Limiting freshman, especially after mistakes, focusing playing time on defensive merit, shortening the rotation down the stretch...all of those things are true of last season, and Buzz's first 5...but....the difference between last year, and the previous 5, was that the system wasn't working, and it was quite evident by the end of non-conference play...and he refused to do anything consequentially different - such as radically changing his starting backcourt..which largely proved highly ineffective.

He doubled down....either out of true belief that they were best option...or out of ego...that he was gonna show all the doubters and naysers...that they were wrong.  Buzz thrives on that type of motivation/underdog role, me against the world.  Additionally, Buzz was at great odds with administration...even with Wild and Cords...likely knew it was his last year at MU...which explains why little care to develop/play freshman..but could also throw it back in face of admin that if they wanted to tighten they reigns on the type of player/recruit he was able to bring in...well...here is what you are going to get with the "character lineup."

I've never been so disappointed in a Marquette season 25 years as a hardcore fan...and never more disappointed in a coach....who I thought was GREAT...but ultimately proved Chicos right in that he's like the rest - an egomaniac, but even worse, one with a very thin skin...and yet hypocritically expects so much toughness out of his players.

[keefe]

I don't think so.  I said this:  "If you don't think he was sacrificing victories, then logically you have to admit that Buzz was playing the best lineup possible to win immediately...or at least wouldn't lose any more than any other line up would lose."

Since there are only two outcomes of a college basketball game (win or loss), if you don't think he was "sacrificing victories," then you must therefore think that he was trying to win.  

And if he was trying to win, then he must have either played the line up that he thought was the best option to win, OR he chose to play what he felt was one of two (or more) equal line ups.

Therefore, the line up choices he made were not to "make a point," but to win games.  As I see it, the only way the "make a point" suggestion makes sense, is if he was purposely playing players who were inferior (in his mind), and therefore "sacrificing victories."

The fallacy is in your premises and the conclusion you draw from that syllogism. In any event, Bert's rotation confounded a number of people - most damningly those who cut his checks as well as the men who suited up for him. The fact he lost his two core constituencies speaks volumes and offers insight to things which no one on Scoop has any visibility.

[GGGG]

Buzz was simply really bad last year.  I don't disagree with some who say his approach last year was the same as its always been:  Limiting freshman, especially after mistakes, focusing playing time on defensive merit, shortening the rotation down the stretch...all of those things are true of last season, and Buzz's first 5...but....the difference between last year, and the previous 5, was that the system wasn't working, and it was quite evident by the end of non-conference play...and he refused to do anything consequentially different - such as radically changing his starting backcourt..which largely proved highly ineffective.

He doubled down....either out of true belief that they were best option...or out of ego...that he was gonna show all the doubters and naysers...that they were wrong.  Buzz thrives on that type of motivation/underdog role, me against the world.  Additionally, Buzz was at great odds with administration...even with Wild and Cords...likely knew it was his last year at MU...which explains why little care to develop/play freshman..but could also throw it back in face of admin that if they wanted to tighten they reigns on the type of player/recruit he was able to bring in...well...here is what you are going to get with the "character lineup."

I don't necessarily disagree with you that when Plan A wasn't effective, Buzz simply didn't have a Plan B, or had one and didn't think it would work.  (Considering he was successful with Plan A in previous years.)

I just don't think your last point makes any sense.  JJJ, Duane, and Dawson seem to all be character guys.  That really wasn't the reason why they didn't play.  

[tower912]

If Buzz knew going in that it was his last year, why the (what would have been if it had all stayed together) great recruiting class?    Why NN?   Why Flory?   He did what had worked in the past.   It didn't work this time. 

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz was simply really bad last year.  I don't disagree with some who say his approach last year was the same as its always been:  Limiting freshman, especially after mistakes, focusing playing time on defensive merit, shortening the rotation down the stretch...all of those things are true of last season, and Buzz's first 5...but....the difference between last year, and the previous 5, was that the system wasn't working, and it was quite evident by the end of non-conference play...and he refused to do anything consequentially different - such as radically changing his starting backcourt..which largely proved highly ineffective.

He doubled down....either out of true belief that they were best option...or out of ego...that he was gonna show all the doubters and naysers...that they were wrong.  Buzz thrives on that type of motivation/underdog role, me against the world.  Additionally, Buzz was at great odds with administration...even with Wild and Cords...likely knew it was his last year at MU...which explains why little care to develop/play freshman..but could also throw it back in face of admin that if they wanted to tighten they reigns on the type of player/recruit he was able to bring in...well...here is what you are going to get with the "character lineup."

I've never been so disappointed in a Marquette season 25 years as a hardcore fan...and never more disappointed in a coach....who I thought was GREAT...but ultimately proved Chicos right in that he's like the rest - an egomaniac, but even worse, one with a very thin skin...and yet hypocritically expects so much toughness out of his players.

I'll sum up your thoughts. Buzz used the same approach in all six of his years at Marquette. In the first five years, which produced 5 NCAA tournament appearances, two Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, back to back 14-4 Big East Conference records and a regular season Big East championship, this approach made you think he hung the moon - great coach, great guy, great character. In years six, when the players weren't quite as good (that WAS his fault) and the close wins often became close losses, this EXACT SAME approach led you to do a 180 - now he's a bad coach, bad guy with bad character. Time for some soul searching, Ners. Don't be that guy.

[keefe]

If Buzz knew going in that it was his last year, why the (what would have been if it had all stayed together) great recruiting class?    Why NN?   Why Flory?   He did what had worked in the past.   It didn't work this time. 

I wouldn't say that leaving was entirely Bert's idea...

[GGGG]

If Buzz knew going in that it was his last year, why the (what would have been if it had all stayed together) great recruiting class?    Why NN?   Why Flory?   He did what had worked in the past.   It didn't work this time.  

Exactly.  I don't know why we have to dream up ulterior motives here.  He didn't do anything appreciably different.

Maybe it's just that some people bought into him too much, and when they were let down, they don't want to admit that maybe they were misguided.  Ners and Wojo's Mojo (who was "mubuzz") were two of the biggest Buzz "slurpers" on this board prior to last year.  

And now both can't seem to come to grips with the fact that he wasn't as good as they thought.  So instead they insist he was being "stubborn," and "making points," instead of coaching to win.

What's ironic is that now *I* am labelled as a "slurper" when during the whole SMU thing, I was saying that Marquette would be fine with its resources and tradition if Buzz left, while half the board was running around like a bunch of chicken-littles.