[PaintTouches]Buzz Williams’ Virginia Tech contract details

[humanlung]

One way or another he will be out of there in four years.

My question:  Do sanctions follow his departure or not?

[EnderWiggen]

I stand corrected. I did not know that that psychologists drew conclusions on character based on handwriting. I thought psych was at least a soft science and not the equivalent of a card trick. I'm officially flummoxed.

Psychologist here.  No respectable psychologist has done handwriting analysis in many many decades.  Of course, there are still people who identify as psychologists who do it, but they are pseudo-scientific jokes in the community.  The thing is, once you have your degree, you can do anything "as a psychologist" but that doesn't mean that it's really part of the field. Similar to how there is probably some physicist out there that believes the earth is flat, but it isn't really part of the field. 

Most psychologists these days do hard science.  If you take a look at the research that comes out, it doesn't involve dream analyses, word associations, ink blots, etc... My example, our lab examines the transition to marriage, but to do so, we measure their hormonal levels (e.g., testosterone, cortisol) across the first couple years of marriage, observe behavioral exchanges between couples that is objectively coded for specific behaviors, etc...

The field, however, got started doing pseudo-scientific crap or soft science and it's really hard to shake that reputation, mostly because the field is really new (<100 years), and people get trained in a certain tradition and pass it on, so the transition from soft science to hard science took longer than it should, but with the exception of about 10-15% of quacks, we have definitely made the leap. 

I'll end my rant, lol

[Hards Alumni]

Psychologist here.  No respectable psychologist has done handwriting analysis in many many decades.  Of course, there are still people who identify as psychologists who do it, but they are pseudo-scientific jokes in the community.  The thing is, once you have your degree, you can do anything "as a psychologist" but that doesn't mean that it's really part of the field. Similar to how there is probably some physicist out there that believes the earth is flat, but it isn't really part of the field. 

Most psychologists these days do hard science.  If you take a look at the research that comes out, it doesn't involve dream analyses, word associations, ink blots, etc... My example, our lab examines the transition to marriage, but to do so, we measure their hormonal levels (e.g., testosterone, cortisol) across the first couple years of marriage, observe behavioral exchanges between couples that is objectively coded for specific behaviors, etc...

The field, however, got started doing pseudo-scientific crap or soft science and it's really hard to shake that reputation, mostly because the field is really new (<100 years), and people get trained in a certain tradition and pass it on, so the transition from soft science to hard science took longer than it should, but with the exception of about 10-15% of quacks, we have definitely made the leap. 

I'll end my rant, lol

Interesting aside; I've read that most of the work on dream analysis that Freud did has been debunked, and he isn't considered particularly important in actual psychology.

[EnderWiggen]

Interesting aside; I've read that most of the work on dream analysis that Freud did has been debunked, and he isn't considered particularly important in actual psychology.

Freud is tough to categorize.  In general, a good chunk of his stuff has been debunked.  He did a LOT to get the field started though, so we definitely pay our respects to him.  However, his methods were extremely unscientific, so in a lot of ways, he also set us back because when people think of psych, they think of his bullshit arm-chair theories.  Finally, some of his stuff actually has some validity, although it doesn't work quite the way he thought. 

For example, his whole notion of the unconscious.  Yes, some cognitive processes are totally unconscious.  However, they they don't make us want to have sex with our mother and kill our father.  Instead, they give us quick information about our environment, make it easier to make quick decisions when we need to, etc...  For example, think about walking down the street- that requires a lot of coordinated effort that we don't even think about.  We aren't saying to ourself, "ok, now i gotta move my left foot her, then my right foot here, lift my leg in this way, twist my torso, etc..."  All of that is automatic and unconscious.  A lot of how we decide whether we like a new product or a new person, is largely automatic and unconscious (i.e., we rarely put together a pro- and con- list for why we should be friends with someone... we just kinda know if we like them).  So, Freud was right that the unconscious mind exists, but he gave it WAY too much credit.

In sum, a lot of it is straight up bullshit, but there are a few ideas that he was right about, yet got the details all wrong.  And all of his ideas came from extremely flawed methods.

[TJ]

Is that you, Larry Williams?

When you're a school like Marquette University you're going to have to spend a bit more on your basketball program to have success than a school like UCLA, North Carolina, Florida, etc.  Just the way it is.  If we spend less, we have less success.

A bit more?  $2.8 M is more than a bit more.  It's a ludicrous number for the results delivered.  Like I said, get some self-respect.  No we're not UCLA, UNC, UF, etc. - but there are plenty of excellent reasons why the MU job is highly desirable too.

[warriorchick]

Is that you, Larry Williams?

When you're a school like Marquette University you're going to have to spend a bit more on your basketball program to have success than a school like UCLA, North Carolina, Florida, etc.  Just the way it is.  If we spend less, we have less success.

True enough, but the actual act of spending money doesn't make your team better.  If you are throwing money at a coach, you have to throw it at the right guy.

[warriorchick]

By the way, does anyone know if the bonuses listed are typical? Some of the amounts are laughable, especially in relationship to the base contract.

Hey, your team's overall GPA is 2.6!  Here is a .65% bonus for you!  Good work! 

Nice job of getting to the Final Four!  There's an extra 4% in your pay envelope!

Are these really incentives?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Buzz is crazy, but he ain't dumb.

Dude is actually kind of fascinating to me. Has been an underdog his ENTIRE LIFE. He has always been trying to climb the mountain, and he has done very well.

Now he's on the plateau at the top of the mountain (relatively speaking), how does he adjust?

Will the guy ever be happy with what he has, or where he is at? It seems like he has a pathological need to be doubted by others. I know that's a tremendous motivational tactic, but how long can you keep that up? How long can you be motivated by people doubting you? Forever?

At some point, does he a moment of self realization about what he is doing and why he's doing it? Can he learn to take a day off, can he learn how/when to ease off of the throttle, and when to step on it?

Mike Jordan has the same issue. It obviously worked very well for him in his playing career, but it seems to cause issues for him in his Wizards comeback, his personal life and his executive career.

[Jay Bee]

By the way, does anyone know if the bonuses listed are typical? Some of the amounts are laughable, especially in relationship to the base contract.

Hey, your team's overall GPA is 2.6!  Here is a .65% bonus for you!  Good work! 

Nice job of getting to the Final Four!  There's an extra 4% in your pay envelope!

Are these really incentives?

Incentives for top performances (ie, FF, nat'l champ) are a bit on the light side but not odd. For a school, they'll have to pay future $$ to retain (ie comp increase in future yrs) to retain, so having a huge performance bonus isn't all that wise.

Rewards should also help retain. One time bonus can sting a school.

VT did fine on the incentive comps, but Buzz owned them overall.
As for the academic incentives - typical. In men's bball, they are generally tiny relative to total comp.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Buzz is crazy, but he ain't dumb.

Dude is actually kind of fascinating to me. Has been an underdog his ENTIRE LIFE. He has always been trying to climb the mountain, and he has done very well.

Now he's on the plateau at the top of the mountain (relatively speaking), how does he adjust?

Will the guy ever be happy with what he has, or where he is at? It seems like he has a pathological need to be doubted by others. I know that's a tremendous motivational tactic, but how long can you keep that up? How long can you be motivated by people doubting you? Forever?

At some point, does he a moment of self realization about what he is doing and why he's doing it? Can he learn to take a day off, can he learn how/when to ease off of the throttle, and when to step on it?

Mike Jordan has the same issue. It obviously worked very well for him in his playing career, but it seems to cause issues for him in his Wizards comeback, his personal life and his executive career.

I think the worst thing that happened, was he enjoyed lots of success early at Marquette. This inflated his ego and caused him to become very arrogant, even though he still tried to play the aw shucks routine. He's a very shrewd guy. I can't really fault him, a majority of the population would do the same if they enjoyed the kind of early success he has. I think going to Va Tech will humble him and he will be a better coach down the road for it. I have no doubt it is going to give him a huge ego check.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the worst thing that happened, was he enjoyed lots of success early at Marquette. This inflated his ego and caused him to become very arrogant, even though he still tried to play the aw shucks routine. He's a very shrewd guy. I can't really fault him, a majority of the population would do the same if they enjoyed the kind of early success he has. I think going to Va Tech will humble him and he will be a better coach down the road for it. I have no doubt it is going to give him a huge ego check.

You might be right, but I'm not entirely sure.

Buzz might experience some set-backs this season, but he'll print out the articles and use them as fuel. Then, when he becomes successful (maybe years later), he'll vaguely mention the doubters and how he proved them wrong.

He's always trying to find something to push against, and I'm not sure that's a good long term approach for somebody at an executive level. He burns very hot, and I don't know if he'll ever be "comfortable".

Interesting guy. If he can mellow a little with age and experience, he might end up being a really good coach for a long time.

[avid1010]

i go a couple ways with this:

1. buzz felt uncomfortable in MKE and took this job as he knew it offered him the most $$$ - long term

2. buzz's ego trumps all and he wants to be at a university where he thinks he can take it to unbelievable heights and he'll be the next coach k.

3. a mix of good long term $$$ and low expectations - see what happens, if it burns up on him, he can likely blame the school and get a decent gig elsewhere.  if he can compete at a reasonable level he can have a long career at VT without the expectations that an MU would have.

[keefe]

Interesting guy. If he can mellow a little with age and experience, he might end up being a really good coach for a long time.

The guy is in his forties. He is what he is and who he is. His demons are not simple stress anxieties about performance. Hell, everybody who takes a serious approach to career, relationships, or driving a golf ball longer and straighter puts pressure on themselves. There is a lot more at play in Bert's ridiculous, grotesque, and peculiar behaviors that delivers extraordinary results for both good and bad.

[Fullodds]

I think the more interesting question is to compare Buzz's signature when he was hired at MU to what it looks like today.

Before:



After:

Psychologist here.  No respectable psychologist has done handwriting analysis in many many decades.  Of course, there are still people who identify as psychologists who do it, but they are pseudo-scientific jokes in the community.  The thing is, once you have your degree, you can do anything "as a psychologist" but that doesn't mean that it's really part of the field. Similar to how there is probably some physicist out there that believes the earth is flat, but it isn't really part of the field. 

Most psychologists these days do hard science.  If you take a look at the research that comes out, it doesn't involve dream analyses, word associations, ink blots, etc... My example, our lab examines the transition to marriage, but to do so, we measure their hormonal levels (e.g., testosterone, cortisol) across the first couple years of marriage, observe behavioral exchanges between couples that is objectively coded for specific behaviors, etc...

The field, however, got started doing pseudo-scientific crap or soft science and it's really hard to shake that reputation, mostly because the field is really new (<100 years), and people get trained in a certain tradition and pass it on, so the transition from soft science to hard science took longer than it should, but with the exception of about 10-15% of quacks, we have definitely made the leap. 

I'll end my rant, lol

[keefe]

I think the more interesting question is to compare Buzz's signature when he was hired at MU to what it looks like today.

Before:



After:

Lotta grandeur there. It's humbling to be in the presence of true greatness.

[EnderWiggen]

I think the more interesting question is to compare Buzz's signature when he was hired at MU to what it looks like today.

Before:



After:

woah.  like i said, i don't put any stock in handwriting analysis, but that signature screams crazy-town, lol 

[Nukem2]

Could Buzz even replicate that signature.....

[Lennys Tap]

i go a couple ways with this:

1. buzz felt uncomfortable in MKE and took this job as he knew it offered him the most $$$ - long term

2. buzz's ego trumps all and he wants to be at a university where he thinks he can take it to unbelievable heights and he'll be the next coach k.

3. a mix of good long term $$$ and low expectations - see what happens, if it burns up on him, he can likely blame the school and get a decent gig elsewhere.  if he can compete at a reasonable level he can have a long career at VT without the expectations that an MU would have.

Might be a little of "all of the above". He has great flexibility and he's at a school nobody expects to be any good.

[willie warrior]

Lotta grandeur there. It's humbling to be in the presence of true greatness.

The real question is: How many of those autographs do the Sultan and TAMU possess. What would be the over/under on that? I have one framed in my bathroom so that I can stare at it while contemplating the issues of the world.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The guy is in his forties. He is what he is and who he is. His demons are not simple stress anxieties about performance. Hell, everybody who takes a serious approach to career, relationships, or driving a golf ball longer and straighter puts pressure on themselves. There is a lot more at play in Bert's ridiculous, grotesque, and peculiar behaviors that delivers extraordinary results for both good and bad.

In theory, he is who he is, but I think he's still learning how to operate at an executive level. He's never going to be Phil Jackson... but at his current rate, he's going to burn up and be out of coaching in under 10 years.

IMHO, the dude has to continue to develop a more feel in managing his staff and his players. Clearly, he's good at pushing people to their breaking point (or beyond), so we know he can be a Drill Sargent. But, now he's an executive position. He has to know how when to pull back, and when to push.

Maximizing potential isn't just about getting guys to go 110% all of the time. That's a great short term strategy, but isn't a viable long term solution.

Also, we know the guy is HYPER type A, but he needs to find something away from the basketball court that can hold his attention. Music, fishing, race car driving, woodworking, whatever. It doesn't matter. He just needs another layer to his personality. It will help him in the long run.

[Marqevans]

Like Mr. Leary on shark tank says:  It's all about the money!

[keefe]

In theory, he is who he is, but I think he's still learning how to operate at an executive level. He's never going to be Phil Jackson... but at his current rate, he's going to burn up and be out of coaching in under 10 years.

IMHO, the dude has to continue to develop a more feel in managing his staff and his players. Clearly, he's good at pushing people to their breaking point (or beyond), so we know he can be a Drill Sargent. But, now he's an executive position. He has to know how when to pull back, and when to push.

Maximizing potential isn't just about getting guys to go 110% all of the time. That's a great short term strategy, but isn't a viable long term solution.

Also, we know the guy is HYPER type A, but he needs to find something away from the basketball court that can hold his attention. Music, fishing, race car driving, woodworking, whatever. It doesn't matter. He just needs another layer to his personality. It will help him in the long run.

Well, he's been in an executive position for 7 years in an industry he has been in for a quarter of a century so if he hasn't figured it out now I doubt he's ever going to get it. He has his style and methods and they work though its lack of complexity, texture, and nuance makes it difficult to adapt to shifting circumstances.

I have seen his personality type in both the private sector and the fighter pilot world and they have flashes of glory but almost always end up crashing and burning. Their primary strengths - focus and intensity - are great for some situations but terrible in many others that require subtlety, sophistication, and flexibility. Recognizing changes in the battlespace is far more important than winning through grit and attrition.

In that way, I share your prediction that Bert is headed out before the age of 50, one way or another.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well, he's been in an executive position for 7 years in an industry he has been in for a quarter of a century so if he hasn't figured it out now I doubt he's ever going to get it. He has his style and methods and they work though its lack of complexity, texture, and nuance makes it difficult to adapt to shifting circumstances.

I have seen his personality type in both the private sector and the fighter pilot world and they have flashes of glory but almost always end up crashing and burning. Their primary strengths - focus and intensity - are great for some situations but terrible in many others that require subtlety, sophistication, and flexibility. Recognizing changes in the battlespace is far more important than winning through grit and attrition.

In that way, I share your prediction that Bert is headed out before the age of 50, one way or another.

Ya, I mean, I think we're in agreement... I just still think there is a chance he can evolve.

However, that's really up to him.

I think he's a good college coach (I know some people don't). But, I can just see that he burns REALLY HOT, and that will not help his longevity. Needs to dial it back some, but as you correctly pointed out, I don't know if he has it in him.

[Goose]

Keefe

Agreed on the burnout by 50 prediction. IMO he has been looking over his shoulder for a long time and sooner or later it catches up to a guy. I said six years ago and will say I again, no one was more surprised he was named coach at MU more than he was. He won the lottery and odds are up he will end up like up many lottery winners.

All that said, he was a helluva of story and more power to him. He got ahead of th curve with new gig and probably was smart bolting this year.

[PaintTouches]

Figured this excerpt from our interview with Buzz last Sept. was relevant to the convo at hand (emphasis is mine):

"I'm telling my wife this morning, and this is what I've always told her, we can never plan as if I'm going to coach a long time, because I don't know if I'm built to do it a long time. It's ok at 35. It's ok at 41. But at 61, I don't think so. But I also don't know what God has in store. She's like, maybe you ought to halfway ease into it and I'm like, I understand. Now getting dressed in my closet, I completely understand what you're saying. But I go in there this morning and I say good morning, how is everybody doing, shake everybody's hands, let's pray. But then as soon as it goes, I'm like bonzo, just bonzo. That's all I know to do."