ACC in five years, 2 thoughts

[Tugg Speedman]

Right now the ACC is the greatest collection of college coaches ever ...k, Boeheim, Roy, Pitino etc.

But in five or so years they will all be gone, retired. (Maybe Roy stays)

How good will the ACC be then?  Will it still dominate?  Or, will it be on par with everyone else, including the NBE.

I'm not saying the ACC becomes a mid-major or anything like that.  Right now the coaches make it special.  They are all very old.  When they leave, does it become interchangeable with the other high major conferences, including the NBE?

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Well connected friend says the B1G has Miami and Virginia targeted for its next expansion in 2or 3 years.  Why?  TV markets.

The SEC is also out there, they like Clemson and UNC.

The world is still run by football, the SEC and B1G pay more money than the ACC.  The ACC is stable for a year or two, but not much longer than that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Right now the ACC is the greatest collection of college coaches ever ...k, Boeheim, Roy, Pitino etc.

But in five or so years they will all be gone, retired. (Maybe Roy stays)

How good will the ACC be then?  Will it still dominate?  Or, will it be on par with everyone else, including the NBE.

I'm not saying the ACC becomes a mid-major or anything like that.  Right now the coaches make it special.  They are all very old.  When they leave, does it become interchangeable with the other high major conferences, including the NBE?

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Well connected friend says the B1G has Miami and Virginia targeted for its next expansion in 2or 3 years.  Why?  TV markets.

The SEC is also out there, they like Clemson and UNC.

The world is still run by football, the SEC and B1G pay more money than the ACC.  The ACC is stable for a year or two, but not much longer than that.

I disagree with your friend for one very big reason. 

GRANT OF RIGHTS

That doesn't expire until 2027.

[Tugg Speedman]

I disagree with your friend for one very big reason. 

GRANT OF RIGHTS

That doesn't expire until 2027.

Please explain

[ChicosBailBonds]

Please explain

All of the ACC schools signed a Grant of Rights in 2013 that essentially is so detrimental financially that anyone leaving the ACC will pay like no other.

What each school did is give the ACC all of their home media rights.  If Miami leaves, the money that Miami would make from television by going to the Big Ten, stays with the ACC until 2027.  It is essentially a poison pill to prevent a hostile takeover by another conference.  Why would the Big Ten want Miami when they would have to wait 13 years to get anything for it.  Why would Miami cut their balls off and forfeit all of their revenue PLUS have to pay the $52M exit fee.

The Big Ten, Pac 12, ACC and Big 12 all have Grant of Rights now which effectively stymies expansion without an enormous cost to do so. 

Here are a few articles on it

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/54697/you-want-stability-look-at-the-acc

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130422/acc-grant-of-rights-conference-realignment/

http://www.burntorangenation.com/2013/7/8/4494320/conference-realignment-grant-of-rights-frank-the-tank

[texaswarrior74]

Chicos is correct about the Grant of Rights. The ACC is holding Maryland to it and a lawsuit by Maryland has been filed. Truth is they signed it before they bolted for the B1G, so don't honestly think they will be able to avoid the penalty which currently is estimated to be north of $30 million.

As to your other point, UNC is a far better fit academically with the B1G than the SEC...the faculty and admin would never go for it... UNC is a major research institution bringing in over $700 million annually from the NIH alone...and it's an AAU member school which has been a prerequisite of the B1G and Miami is not.

While many UNC football fans would love to be a part of the SEC due to natural rivalries, if any move ever took place my money is on the B1G.

And Devany is a UNC grad.

https://www.aau.edu

[Tugg Speedman]

CBB:

The top of the heap, ground zero of all college sports, is Jim Delvany's office in Chicago (commissioner of the B1G).  This because they have the crown jewel in college sports, the BTN.  It mints money and the B1G wants to expand to other media markets.  So how do they do if everyone signed a grant of rights deal?

And, I got this from you, the SEC Network, the PAC-12 Network, etc. are all going to be very difficult to expand like the BTN giving the current realities in the broadcasting industry.

So the stresses between the haves (the B1G with the BTN) and the have nots (everyone else) will build and with it conference realignment.

How much of this do you agree with?

[Tugg Speedman]

Chicos is correct about the Grant of Rights. The ACC is holding Maryland to it and a lawsuit by Maryland has been filed. Truth is they signed it before they bolted for the B1G, so don't honestly think they will be able to avoid the penalty.

As to your other point, UNC is a far better fit academically with the B1G than the SEC...the faculty and admin would never go for it... UNC is a major research institution bringing in over $700 million annually from the NIH alone...and it's an AAU member school which has been a prerequisite of the B1G and Miami is not.

While many UNC football fans would love to be a part of the SEC due to natural rivalries, if any move ever took place my money is on the B1G.

And Devany is a UNC grad.

https://www.aau.edu

Don't disagree with you.  See my post above, we have temporary stability in conference realignment, not permanent stability.

Ironically the most stability situation is the NBE, as non-football schools in the best non-football conference, and a 12 year TV deal.  So these schools have the most stability.

[ChicosBailBonds]

CBB:

The top of the heap, ground zero of all college sports, is Jim Delvany's office in Chicago (commissioner of the B1G).  This because they have the crown jewel in college sports, the BTN.  It mints money and the B1G wants to expand to other media markets.  So how do they do if everyone signed a grant of rights deal?

And, I got this from you, the SEC Network, the PAC-12 Network, etc. are all going to be very difficult to expand like the BTN giving the current realities in the broadcasting industry.

So the stresses between the haves (the B1G with the BTN) and the have nots (everyone else) will build and with it conference realignment.

How much of this do you agree with?

They expand money each time their contract comes up for renewal with television distributors.  For example, I know their deal is up this year with one major provider.  They will be asking for a lot more money.  Whether that distributor fights back and tells them to stick it will be interesting, but this is how they plan on growing it.  Now, they may also try to get additional dollars with a digital strategy, the danger there for them is the television distributors will say fine...you are on your own and that is a losing strategy for the conference.

The SEC Network is going to get expansion because it is part of ESPN and basically ESPN is going to force it on everyone.  They have that much power.  The Pac 12, different story.  Obviously we have stuck to our guns on that one and I don't see any change there.  I believe other conferences wanting to start their own channel got the message about that one and have backed off because too many of us are saying enough.

I think major conference realignment is done for quite some time.  You might see someone grab a UCONN or something like that, but I don't think too many schools from the major four mentioned earlier in this thread are jumping due to the grant of rights considerations.  The ROI on that is so upside down it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Eye]

The late 80s Big East wasn't a bad collection of coaches BTW - 6 HOF's - Thompson, Carnesecca, Massimino, Boeheim, Pitino, Calhoun. Carlesimo made a championship game and may have been in the bottom 3rd of coaches not too soon before that. Paul Evans who made the tournament about 2/3s of his time at Pitt was 2nd from the bottom. More pinache (sp?) at the top of the 14-15 ACC with Krzyzewski and Williams, but more (and maybe a lot more) quality of depth in the late 80s BE with about half the teams.

[Tugg Speedman]

Does the B1G grabbing Uconn make sense?  Combine with Rutgers they solidify their presence in the NYC market.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Does the B1G grabbing Uconn make sense?  Combine with Rutgers they solidify their presence in the NYC market.

Not really from a television market perspective, but there aren't a bunch of markets left for them to go after.  Cincinnati is more attractive, but OSU would say hell no. 

Remember the B1G has some academic prestige that they don't want to water down either.  They took a lot of crap internally from the academics for taking Nebraska, who was an AAU member but lost status.  Maryland and Rutgers are both members.

Of the soon to be 14 Big Ten schools, 13 are members of the AAU.  That is by no accident.  UCONN, Memphis, Cincinnati of the AAC are not.  Because the SEC doesn't have a grant of rights agreement with schools, potentially you could see a SEC school leave like Vanderbilt, Missouri or someone like that, but I doubt it.  Both of those schools are AAU members.

[77ncaachamps]

In the end, non-(big) state schools or non-BCS FB schools get screwed.

Yet, the media and the populace love a Mercer beating a Duke but continually feed the craphole that is college FB "Bowl" season.

[Eldon]

Guys, guys, guys, why do you put faith in this Grants of Rights business?

If Maryland gets out of its exit fees, I will believe (perhaps incorrectly) that that Grant of Rights til 2027 is not worth the paper that it's written on.


Just as the football schools in the Old Big East wanted out because they had to share their money with the bball schools, the football powerhouses of the ACC will eventually want out (FSU, Clemson, Miami) for having to split their revenues with Wake, BC, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Guys, guys, guys, why do you put faith in this Grants of Rights business?

If Maryland gets out of its exit fees, I will believe (perhaps incorrectly) that that Grant of Rights til 2027 is not worth the paper that it's written on.


Just as the football schools in the Old Big East wanted out because they had to share their money with the bball schools, the football powerhouses of the ACC will eventually want out (FSU, Clemson, Miami) for having to split their revenues with Wake, BC, etc.

Two separate issues.  The Grant of Rights is separate from the exit fees situation.   

The Old Big East never had a grant of rights provision for all the schools, nor would the football schools have signed it anyway.

[Eldon]

Two separate issues.  The Grant of Rights is separate from the exit fees situation.   

The Old Big East never had a grant of rights provision for all the schools, nor would the football schools have signed it anyway.

No doubt.  But what I mean is that my hunch is that a school can get out of the Grant of Rights if they were to challenge it in court.  How so?  Because allowing the ACC the rights to all tv revenue up until 2027 is way past punitive damages.  In other words, a school leaving the ACC would hurt the ACC monetarily, but not enough to warrant keeping all of the departing school's revenue all the way up to 2027.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

No doubt.  But what I mean is that my hunch is that a school can get out of the Grant of Rights if they were to challenge it in court.  How so?  Because allowing the ACC the rights to all tv revenue up until 2027 is way past punitive damages.  In other words, a school leaving the ACC would hurt the ACC monetarily, but not enough to warrant keeping all of the departing school's revenue all the way up to 2027.   

Pretty much everything I've read on grant of rights is that it is rock solid from a legal standpoint.  Anything can obviously be challenged in court, but my understanding is the chances of prevailing are limited.

Some attorneys have argued that the grant of rights might weaken the ACCs ability to get the full exit fee from Maryland, however.

[Warhawk Warrior]

I believe the ultimate goal of the Big 4 or 5 conferences (B10, B12, ACC, Pac12, SEC), which ultimately consist of 80 or so schools is to wrestle control of Major sports from NCAA.  The NCAA will be nothing but a pawn in their game.  They will likely vote auto berths in championships and tournaments to their own desire.  Broadcast income will reduce the other schools to fodder.  The only chance I see for the non-football bigs is to establish basketball prowess in their own right.  Somehow try to become #6 with a voice of big markets and MSG.  This is going to get ugly.  Football does have to overcome the injury issue which may undermine the sport in the long run.

[DFW HOYA]

Two more thoughts:

1. Grant of rights is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Under the right set of conditions, it will be thrown out by the courts as a restraint of trade.

2. The fault line for the next round of realignment is the University of Texas. The orangebloods in Austin sought interest from the Pac-12 a few years ago but were rebuffed by the academic wing of the conference (Cal, Stanford, UCLA). If the Big Ten called, however, they would listen. Any departure by Texas or Oklahoma (who can only be envious of how Texas A&M tranformed its image in the SEC at Texas' expense) will start the game of musical chairs up again. And as for Buzz, I think he's looking at Blacksburg as a stepping stone to succeeed Rick Barnes at UT at some point.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lawsuits happen all the time, whether they win is another matter.  Many litigants have made the restraint of trade argument and lost.  We'll see.

[Dawson Rental]

Guys, guys, guys, why do you put faith in this Grants of Rights business?

If Maryland gets out of its exit fees, I will believe (perhaps incorrectly) that that Grant of Rights til 2027 is not worth the paper that it's written on.


Just as the football schools in the Old Big East wanted out because they had to share their money with the bball schools, the football powerhouses of the ACC will eventually want out (FSU, Clemson, Miami) for having to split their revenues with Wake, BC, etc.

Maryland announced their departure from the ACC before that conference did their grant of rights deal.  In fact, Maryland leaving might have been the impetus for the ACC doing a grant of rights.  Maryland has a huge (50 million plus) exit fee to contend with, but they do not have to worry about the grant of rights.

[Eldon]

Maryland announced their departure from the ACC before that conference did their grant of rights deal.  In fact, Maryland leaving might have been the impetus for the ACC doing a grant of rights.  Maryland has a huge (50 million plus) exit fee to contend with, but they do not have to worry about the grant of rights.

Yup, I think it most certainly was.

My overarching point is that if Maryland can get out of paying the full $50M exit fee, then FSU should be able to at least partially get out of the Grants of Rights.  In other words, Maryland "winning" its case would set a sort of  legal precedent for FSU

[Dawson Rental]

Two more thoughts:

1. Grant of rights is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Under the right set of conditions, it will be thrown out by the courts as a restraint of trade.

2. The fault line for the next round of realignment is the University of Texas. The orangebloods in Austin sought interest from the Pac-12 a few years ago but were rebuffed by the academic wing of the conference (Cal, Stanford, UCLA). If the Big Ten called, however, they would listen. Any departure by Texas or Oklahoma (who can only be envious of how Texas A&M tranformed its image in the SEC at Texas' expense) will start the game of musical chairs up again. And as for Buzz, I think he's looking at Blacksburg as a stepping stone to succeeed Rick Barnes at UT at some point.

If VT wasn't a step back for Buzz which he was willing to take just to get out of Marquette now, then it was a very high risk gamble to raise his profile.  VT is now looking to regularly 1) finish in the top half of the ACC and 2) make the NCAA tournament.  With the top four spots regularly going to North Carolina, Duke, Syracuse and Louisville, Buzz is going to find itself having to regularly finish in the top three from among NC State, Virginia, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami, Notre Dame and VT.  Building from the ground up at a school with no basketball tradition with less resources than he's accustomed to that will be an immense challenge.  VT's basketball program budget is roughly half of what Marquette's is.  Recruiting in his own locale will be brutal, although he should be able to find some success in SEC's territory.  In short, the chances that Buzz will enhance his resume at VT are slight.  But if he does succeed, he'll have hit a home run.

[Dawson Rental]

Yup, I think it most certainly was.

My overarching point is that if Maryland can get out of paying the full $50M exit fee, then FSU should be able to at least partially get out of the Grants of Rights.  In other words, Maryland "winning" its case would set a sort of  legal precedent for FSU

I think what CBB is saying is that the two are apples and oranges from a legal perspective.  (I believe) that you beat an exit fee with a liquidated damages defense (parties cannot predetermine what damages will be for breach of contract in that contract) while grants of rights (a school signing a deal to sell it TV rights for a specified period of time) are not liquidated damages and therefore must be legally attacked under a different theory like restraint of trade.

[Texas Western]

The ACC has an incredible combination of academics, basketball tradition and desirability. Coaches will come and go, but these institutions are far bigger than the coaches.

I was at the UNC Duke game at Chapel Hill earlier this year when the UNC fans stormed the court after the game. That was more than an expression of one game, it was all about the Tobacco Road rivalry etc

Having had some experience with my own kids in D-1 Sports, I can safely say that top quality athletes are very much attracted to the whole ACC experience. The recent additions only enhance it

[Atticus]

The ACC has an incredible combination of academics, basketball tradition and desirability. Coaches will come and go, but these institutions are far bigger than the coaches.

I was at the UNC Duke game at Chapel Hill earlier this year when the UNC fans stormed the court after the game. That was more than an expression of one game, it was all about the Tobacco Road rivalry etc

Having had some experience with my own kids in D-1 Sports, I can safely say that top quality athletes are very much attracted to the whole ACC experience. The recent additions only enhance it

I agree. I'm somewhat amused that people think we will be just fine post-buzz and then suggest that ACC programs with coaches that are nearing retirement will be in trouble. There is some comedic gold here.