Davante Gardner Big East advanced stats.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU - offensive efficiency doesn't take into account pace as it's based on per possession basis.  The fact that he's putting up huge OReg numbers against multiple opponents playing multiple tempos suggests he's plenty capable of playing those minutes without his numbers dropping.

I know that. My point was that a slower pace game will not fatigue Gardner as much as a faster paced game. Ergo, Buzz may feel more comfortable playing him for longer minutes.

[BenCat12]

He doesn't start because Otule has a higher tip winning percentage than any other player in the BEast...and starting him at the 4 has proven to be terrible.

I would like to max his minutes out. Buzz likes him being a little more fresh. In the end we are talking about a difference of 3-5 minutes

I have heard this countless times.  If we value the tip so much because of the perceived "extra possession," that Gardner usually doesn't check in until after the 16 minute mark.  Why is it that when given the opportunity, Buzz never goes for a 2 for 1 possession at the end of the first half or at the end of games like the NBA does? 

[Sunbelt15]

He doesn't start because Otule has a higher tip winning percentage than any other player in the BEast...and starting him at the 4 has proven to be terrible.

I would like to max his minutes out. Buzz likes him being a little more fresh. In the end we are talking about a difference of 3-5 minutes

So he's not starting the first 4 to 6 minutes because of a tip? Wow.

Start DG and let Jamil jump the tip.

[esotericmindguy]

7% of what Buzz knows? What else is there to know? Other than things outside of perfoance on game day. He said himself KenPom is the best, the numbers don't lie. Mayo is better than Jaun and Gardner is better that Otule.

The only way to explain it is by listening to what recruits say and what buzz says. Recruits always say how he never talks basketball with the kids and parents, that Preparing kids for life, challenges, etc. are his main objectives. Buzz says after games how he believes in Derrick and admires Otule's resolve. I believe he rewards DWilson, Juan and Otule because of how hard they work and their story. Challenges other players by not playing them as much. Problem for fans like myself is, i just want to see them win. But maybe it is the best approach in the long run...if collegiate sports are really designed for student athletes.

[NersEllenson]

To add a little context on Gardner's overall season Offensive Rating, he checks in at 123.2 - In the 15 games listed where he gets more than 28 minutes, his rating goes to 132.2.

It would seem 15 games is a relevant sample size, and the jump in ORating is absolutely significant and something that would help this team...

Todd Mayo when getting 29+ minutes this season has an O Rating of 113.  His rating for the season is 105.5  

That's also a significant increase in ORating that would help this team...

John Dawson in games where he plays more than 15 minutes (4 games all year), ORating is 94.25.  Season rating is 89.6.  (Games where he plays 20+ minutes - just 2 games his ORating is 120 - not a relevant sample size of course - just added for context)

Of note, Pomroy does not even assign an offensive rating for a player, playing less than 10 minutes, as he views it to be statistically irrelevant - and in those games 5 for Dawson...he scored a total of 13 points...that don't count for anything with regard to ORating.

[esotericmindguy]

To add a little context on Gardner's overall season Offensive Rating, he checks in at 123.2 - In the 15 games listed where he gets more than 28 minutes, his rating goes to 132.2.

It would seem 15 games is a relevant sample size, and the jump in ORating is absolutely significant and something that would help this team...

Todd Mayo when getting 29+ minutes this season has an O Rating of 113.  His rating for the season is 105.5  

That's also a significant increase in ORating that would help this team...

John Dawson in games where he plays more than 15 minutes (4 games all year), ORating is 94.25.  Season rating is 89.6.  (Games where he plays 20+ minutes - just 2 games his ORating is 120 - not a relevant sample size of course - just added for context)

Of note, Pomroy does not even assign an offensive rating for a player, playing less than 10 minutes, as he views it to be statistically irrelevant - and in those games 5 for Dawson...he scored a total of 13 points...that don't count for anything with regard to ORating.

Basketball is a rhythm sport, so I'm not surprised by that. I don't think you lose much on the defensive end when subbing Devante and Todd for Otule and Juan.

Pomroy does not even assign an offensive rating for a player, playing less than 10 minutes. Crazy because Buzz plays Juan, Taylor, Deonte all 10 minutes a game in conference.

I really believe Buzz will reflect back on this season and realize he made major mistakes. Probably make him a better coach. The good news, he's finally figured it out, maybe a run in New York.

[jesmu84]

Do advanced stats exist where we can evaluate davante's rating up to 30 minutes and then post 30 minutes?

[Class71]

Ok, here's the best way to have it make sense to the posters questioning Gardner getting more minutes being a detriment.

The difference between Gardner and Otule on a 40 minute basis is nearly 10 points/game better offensively for Gardner and roughly 1 point/game worse defensively for Gardner.  If you doubt those numbers simply look at both their Offensive and Defensive ratings and do the calculations yourselves.

Even if the difference between Otule and Gardner's offensive efficiency was cut in half from Gardner's 30th minute on, he'd still be nearly 5 points/game better than Otule.

This is simply a topic that shouldn't even be debated at this point as the numbers are so far in Gardner's favor it's willful ignorance to discount them.

This is spot on. Buzz must see it but values defense, which is important, but to a fault. We all have bias' IMHO Buzz has a few which in many cases are valid but not this year. I do not believe these general rules hold this year given the skill sets. That is, it is not always true defense should be valued over offense, experience is valued over youthful talent, athleticism over good shooting, good practice players always make good game players, low risk takers are always better than controlled risk takers. Until Coach looks at the whole picture we will have problems if the players do not fit or can not be molded into his perfect player. We need to capitalize on the players existing talents and adjust within the limits of each player. If that does not change my friends it will not be good for the players, the coach or the fans. When the best players do not fit the coaches image of the perfect player we will suffer since they will not be played.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So he's not starting the first 4 to 6 minutes because of a tip? Wow.

Start DG and let Jamil jump the tip.

I think I have seen Gardner check in at he 14 minute mark once this season. And he was standing at the scorers table since before the 16 minute timeout, there was just no stoppage of play.

Jamil would lose most of the tips IMHO. Most BEast centers have 3 inches in height and several inches in wingspan on him

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have heard this countless times.  If we value the tip so much because of the perceived "extra possession," that Gardner usually doesn't check in until after the 16 minute mark.  Why is it that when given the opportunity, Buzz never goes for a 2 for 1 possession at the end of the first half or at the end of games like the NBA does? 

That is a good question. I have wondered it myself. My guess is that because Buzz values defense over offense, he would rather give the opponent the last shot with a shortened shot clock then give them a full shot clock just to have the opportunity to shoot a hurried last second shot (even though we seem to be good at them..lol).

Winning the tip on the other hand comes with no negatives. If you have a chance to win the tip everytime, you go for it. Now I would get Gardner in there at the first stoppage of play. Buzz does this sometimes but more oftenly waits till about the first media timeout. Not sure why.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

7% of what Buzz knows? What else is there to know? Other than things outside of perfoance on game day. He said himself KenPom is the best, the numbers don't lie. Mayo is better than Jaun and Gardner is better that Otule.

The only way to explain it is by listening to what recruits say and what buzz says. Recruits always say how he never talks basketball with the kids and parents, that Preparing kids for life, challenges, etc. are his main objectives. Buzz says after games how he believes in Derrick and admires Otule's resolve. I believe he rewards DWilson, Juan and Otule because of how hard they work and their story. Challenges other players by not playing them as much. Problem for fans like myself is, i just want to see them win. But maybe it is the best approach in the long run...if collegiate sports are really designed for student athletes.

I would argue that on the court performance is less than 5% of the data. Buzz knows everything about his kids. From how they do in practice (very important data) to what motivates/drives them (important data) to which fans  jersey chasers the players are sweet on (not so relevant).We can speculate and argue all we want about the data we know, I enjoy the debate, but let's not pretend for a second than any of us know more than Buzz does. Even if Doc Rivers is on this site, he doesn't know as much as Buzz does ABOUT THESE PLAYERS. Of course, if Doc Rivers was on this site, I would hang on just about every word he posts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

To add a little context on Gardner's overall season Offensive Rating, he checks in at 123.2 - In the 15 games listed where he gets more than 28 minutes, his rating goes to 132.2.

It would seem 15 games is a relevant sample size, and the jump in ORating is absolutely significant and something that would help this team...

Todd Mayo when getting 29+ minutes this season has an O Rating of 113.  His rating for the season is 105.5  

That's also a significant increase in ORating that would help this team...

John Dawson in games where he plays more than 15 minutes (4 games all year), ORating is 94.25.  Season rating is 89.6.  (Games where he plays 20+ minutes - just 2 games his ORating is 120 - not a relevant sample size of course - just added for context)

Of note, Pomroy does not even assign an offensive rating for a player, playing less than 10 minutes, as he views it to be statistically irrelevant - and in those games 5 for Dawson...he scored a total of 13 points...that don't count for anything with regard to ORating.

Good data. Out of curiousity, do you think there is a possible chicken and the egg situation? Do Davante and John play better because they get more minutes? Or do they get more minutes because they are playing better? Not saying that's the case, but wondering what you think.

[NersEllenson]

Good data. Out of curiousity, do you think there is a possible chicken and the egg situation? Do Davante and John play better because they get more minutes? Or do they get more minutes because they are playing better? Not saying that's the case, but wondering what you think.

I think talent over time rises to the top.  There is no denying Davante is a very talented/skilled player.  He's usually good game in, game out...and has shown a great deal of consistency during his entire career at MU - at least on the offensive end.  Dawson is a talented player/prospect, and with more time, that talent gets extracted.  Todd Mayo - He did not start well at all against Providence - and if Buzz had pulled him like he historically has done prior to the last 7 games - we'd never have seen his brilliance.

Of course all players have "off" games, but talented kids simply cannot be yanked in and out by virtue of making one, two, or three mistakes.  I think more than anything, Buzz has "overcoached" it this year, gotten too caught up in the offense/defense lineup mindset, and it just disrupts flow and rhythm for ALL the guys.  As I've argued all season, the one area he hasn't been inconsistent with playing time allocation is Derrick - and there is plenty of evidence to suggest he is who he is - a solid, backup caliber PG at this level.  Buzz is simply trying to extract something that isn't there in Derrick - a difference making 30+ minute per game PG.

[Sunbelt15]

I think I have seen Gardner check in at he 14 minute mark once this season. And he was standing at the scorers table since before the 16 minute timeout, there was just no stoppage of play.

Jamil would lose most of the tips IMHO. Most BEast centers have 3 inches in height and several inches in wingspan on him

I don't think winning the tip is that important when:

For
    1. We get the ball first in the second half.

    2. Davonte ability/opportunity to produce 4-6 more points of offense or more.

    3. Davonte ability to create quick fouls on opponent's big men.

[slingkong]

I would like to max his minutes out. Buzz likes him being a little more fresh. In the end we are talking about a difference of 3-5 minutes

But with his ultrahigh efficiency, how many points are being left? Hard to quantify but not nothing.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't think winning the tip is that important when:

For
    1. We get the ball first in the second half.

    2. Davonte ability/opportunity to produce 4-6 more points of offense or more.

    3. Davonte ability to create quick fouls on opponent's big men.

1. No we don't. The loser of the jump ball gets the first possession arrow. Who starts with the ball in the second half is determined by the possession arrow. So essentially winning the jump either gives you an equal number of possessions as your opponent, or one extra one.

2. If Davante started, I don't think his minutes will necessarily go up. They just change when in the game the minutes are coming. I'd rather have him at the end of the game, then the beginning.

3. This I agree with.

In the end, I like winning the tip, it is essentially an extra possession. So I would start Chris. But get Davante in at the first break. Starting Juan with Chris is the more questionable call to me.

[77ncaachamps]

They don't call him "No D" Gardner...or...Avante for no reason.

His Off #s are great but defensively, he's just a lump on the block who has difficulty moving his feet.

[willie warrior]

1. No we don't. The loser of the jump ball gets the first possession arrow. Who starts with the ball in the second half is determined by the possession arrow. So essentially winning the jump either gives you an equal number of possessions as your opponent, or one extra one.

2. If Davante started, I don't think his minutes will necessarily go up. They just change when in the game the minutes are coming. I'd rather have him at the end of the game, then the beginning.

3. This I agree with.

In the end, I like winning the tip, it is essentially an extra possession. So I would start Chris. But get Davante in at the first break. Starting Juan with Chris is the more questionable call to me.

Winning the tip s mythical hog wash and this year proves it. We have won the tip about 25 of 30 games and look where we are; 17-13 with at least 6 or 7 ass kickings. Means absolutely squat.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Winning the tip s mythical hog wash and this year proves it. We have won the tip about 25 of 30 games and look where we are; 17-13 with at least 6 or 7 ass kickings. Means absolutely squat.

Haha. I don't think anyone is arguing that winning the opening tip=winning the game. But with as bad as we are, don't we need every advantage that we can get?

[NersEllenson]

Haha. I don't think anyone is arguing that winning the opening tip=winning the game. But with as bad as we are, don't we need every advantage that we can get?

Absolutely, so why start an inferior starting lineup each half??  Why continue to give max minutes to the most ineffective PG in high major basketball?  Why let a talent like Burton sit on the bench 25-20 minutes a game?

I don't care if they can't play to "scouting report" as well - those who can "play to the scouting report" haven't gotten the job done, nor do they have the talent necessary to get the job done.  Burton does.  Dawson does.  Mayo does.  Gardner does.  Max their f'in minutes Buzz!!

[willie warrior]

Haha. I don't think anyone is arguing that winning the opening tip=winning the game. But with as bad as we are, don't we need every advantage that we can get?

Why? How many times have we won the opening tip and after 8 minutes we are down 10 points. Happened a lot.
And winning the opening tip is not an advantage as the other team wins the next decision possession. It is a wash.

[esotericmindguy]

I would argue that on the court performance is less than 5% of the data. Buzz knows everything about his kids. From how they do in practice (very important data) to what motivates/drives them (important data) to which fans  jersey chasers the players are sweet on (not so relevant).We can speculate and argue all we want about the data we know, I enjoy the debate, but let's not pretend for a second than any of us know more than Buzz does. Even if Doc Rivers is on this site, he doesn't know as much as Buzz does ABOUT THESE PLAYERS. Of course, if Doc Rivers was on this site, I would hang on just about every word he posts.

So now it's down 2% of what we know. As you would say, evidence? Jersey chasing? Are you serious? Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself. Again, that's my problem with buzz, he coaches with his heart way to much. In the past his favorites were always the best players, that's not the case this year. He said it himself, he believes in the underdog, well I believe in winning games.

One of the most efficient offensive players in Marquette history just played his last game at the Bradley Center....and he averaged 23 minutes a game as an upperclassman. Ridiculous.

[BenCat12]

I would argue that on the court performance is less than 5% of the data. Buzz knows everything about his kids. From how they do in practice (very important data) to what motivates/drives them (important data) to which fans  jersey chasers the players are sweet on (not so relevant).We can speculate and argue all we want about the data we know, I enjoy the debate, but let's not pretend for a second than any of us know more than Buzz does. Even if Doc Rivers is on this site, he doesn't know as much as Buzz does ABOUT THESE PLAYERS. Of course, if Doc Rivers was on this site, I would hang on just about every word he posts.

This couldn't be more wrong and if Buzz is truly using 5% of on-court performance to determine playing time he should have been fired yesterday.  This is about winning basketball games, not running a charity.  While the feel good stories are great, he gets paid millions of dollars a year to win.  It is comments like these from you and other posters that make me wonder if you ever played organized sports. 
You give Buzz entirely too much credit.  I don't think Bulls or Lakers fans look at Phil Jackson in the same glowing light, as a Zen master, that you and some of the other Buzz-fanatics do.  Buzz is a great recruiter, a great motivator and an average basketball coach.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So now it's down 2% of what we know. As you would say, evidence? Jersey chasing? Are you serious? Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself. Again, that's my problem with buzz, he coaches with his heart way to much. In the past his favorites were always the best players, that's not the case this year. He said it himself, he believes in the underdog, well I believe in winning games.

One of the most efficient offensive players in Marquette history just played his last game at the Bradley Center....and he averaged 23 minutes a game as an upperclassman. Ridiculous.

Jersey chasing was thrown out there as a joke. But it's still information about our players that Buzz knows that we don't.

If Buzz is playing his favorite players over the ones who give us a better chance to win (and the only reason is that they are his favorites), I want him fired this very second. And I love the guy. "Buzz is loyal to his favorites" is a lazy argument that posters use to hide the fact that our backups are not as good as we think they are.

What Senior are you talking about? Jake averaged 29.7 minutes per game, Jamil averaged 28.9 mpg, Davante average 26.5 mpg, and Chris averaged 18.1 mpg. No one was 23 mpg.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This couldn't be more wrong and if Buzz is truly using 5% of on-court performance to determine playing time he should have been fired yesterday.  This is about winning basketball games, not running a charity.  While the feel good stories are great, he gets paid millions of dollars a year to win.  It is comments like these from you and other posters that make me wonder if you ever played organized sports. 
You give Buzz entirely too much credit.  I don't think Bulls or Lakers fans look at Phil Jackson in the same glowing light, as a Zen master, that you and some of the other Buzz-fanatics do.  Buzz is a great recruiter, a great motivator and an average basketball coach.

Please read what I said again. I never said Buzz uses less the 5% of on court performance. I said all of on the court performance accounts for less than 5% of the available data about our players. Buzz has has literally months worth of practice hours to judge on. Not too mention all the off court data.

I'm not saying Buzz is a zen master or whatever it is you said. All I have said, all I have ever said, is that Buzz has 100% of the available data. We probably have about 7%. We can debate all we want, but Buzz will always know more than we do. I'm not even saying that Buzz has more basketball IQ than us (he does), I'm just saying he has access to more data than any of us do.