Creighton Officiating

[ChicosBailBonds]

Because officiating affects games.  Its just that simple.

It can, of course.  Here's the way I look at it, if both sides are complaining, then it is typically bad for both sides.  My question and what I believe to be the most important question, did one team gain an advantage over the officiating?  I get the fact that it becomes boring to watch, etc, etc.  Was one team given an advantage as a result of the officiating?  If so, how?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Get over it. It was in good fun. Jeez.

Someone asked my point, I explained it.  Sheez

[ChicosBailBonds]

Did you actually read people's comments (in either thread really)? It was a poorly officiated game that made it a pretty low quality product. What's wrong with pointing that out?

Yes, and I just addressed that.  Nothing wrong with pointing that out, but if you had also read some people's comments there is a lot "they were better, but" ....stop with the buts IMO. 

Bad reffing can absolutely dictate a game's outcome, especially if it is one sided.  My view was last night was not a well officiated game, but I also don't think it advantaged one team either.  Both sides suffered. In that situation, I don't get worked up over it.  If my team is getting worked and clearly disadvantaged, then that's a different story. IMO

[Hards Alumni]

It can, of course.  Here's the way I look at it, if both sides are complaining, then it is typically bad for both sides.  My question and what I believe to be the most important question, did one team gain an advantage over the officiating?  I get the fact that it becomes boring to watch, etc, etc.  Was one team given an advantage as a result of the officiating?  If so, how?

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  Most are arguing that it was poorly officiated and no fun to watch... not that one team was getting all the calls. 

The product on the floor was ruined by the officials.

[MUfan12]

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  Most are arguing that it was poorly officiated and no fun to watch... not that one team was getting all the calls. 

The product on the floor was ruined by the officials.

Come on, Hards. Don't ruin Chicos' narrative with your facts!

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

The thing that bothered me about the officiating is it made the game very difficult to watch.

[mu_hilltopper]

I guess I find it interesting that we start a thread before a game even is played that Creighton fans are whining about the officiating leading to their defeat.  Then the actual game is played and we have a lot of our fans doing the exact same thing.  I know the original thread was just a tease, don't get me wrong.

I just hate the blame the officiating stuff, even when caveated with "they were the better team and would have won anyway".   How about simply, they were the better team.  It was a home game, everyone knew how important it was to us, fans in full throat, and they came in and beat us and other than a very short burst, they did it to us rather emphatically all game long.  Takes the refs out of it.

What would be the circumstances whereby you'd allow reffing quality to be a legit topic of discussion?

I submit the 'caveating' makes it legit.  We're not pointing at the refs as the reason we lost, we're pointing at them as a matter of .. a negative aspect of the basketball product on display .. and we believe Creighton fans (or anyone who watched) would be in agreement .. the reffing was poor both ways.

Not specifically directed at you, but it's a given that there are some people in the commentariat who can't wait to slap down anyone who brings up the lack of quality officiating for any reason.  

It's a legit topic .. while it's possible I missed the NCAA handbook on this, I look at the NFL for a 'good' example of how they approach ref quality in terms of game-by-game review and grading.   Not that the NCAA should grade every game, but they clearly need to vote some guys off the island every season.

[GGGG]

It's a legit topic .. while it's possible I missed the NCAA handbook on this, I look at the NFL for a 'good' example of how they approach ref quality in terms of game-by-game review and grading.   Not that the NCAA should grade every game, but they clearly need to vote some guys off the island every season.

Which is hard when they are all independent contractors. 

[mu_hilltopper]

Which is hard when they are all independent contractors. 

I assume they contract with the conferences?   And that's fine, let the conferences do it.  Clearly, the top 5-6 conferences have the resources to pull it off .. so if they do the review and move along sub-standard refs and those refs move to the lower conferences, so be it, let the market forces work their magic.

[rocky_warrior]

Which is hard when they are all independent contractors. 

That should make it easy, no?  "Your contract has not been renewed".

[GGGG]

I assume they contract with the conferences?   And that's fine, let the conferences do it.  Clearly, the top 5-6 conferences have the resources to pull it off .. so if they do the review and move along sub-standard refs and those refs move to the lower conferences, so be it, let the market forces work their magic.

And I'm sure they do that.  But remember that the BE director of officials is John Cahill...who was one of them up until last year.  He's going to have a bias that prevents him from freezing out all but the worst offenders.

[GGGG]

That should make it easy, no?  "Your contract has not been renewed".

By one conference perhaps.  But there are others.

[mu_hilltopper]

And I'm sure they do that.  But remember that the BE director of officials is John Cahill...who was one of them up until last year.  He's going to have a bias that prevents him from freezing out all but the worst offenders.

Unknown .. it takes a good ref to know about the performance of bad refs.  I imagine they get as irked as we do about bad officiating.  -- In any event, if Cahill isn't doing his job (either) .. the league has a multi-billion dollar entertainment business they need to protect and would need to find a guy actually do the job.

[LegalEagle15]

Long time reader, first time posting. Last night's officiating drove me to the point of joining the discussion. First off I think Creighton is a better team and that they executed their game plan better than we did. Regardless of officiating I think they come out with the win last night.
However, that was some abysmal officiating. I was sitting in the lower part of student section (next to the sombrero guy) with some fellow law school students and we were appalled at the calls being made. First, refs were making the wrong calls and you could tell by the hand signals they were using. On one possession they called Creighton's 31 for two hands to the back of our guy (one of those new fouls)...when both of 31s hands were in the air. Then they'd call illegal use of the hands when if anything it was a ticky tack blocking foul. Throughout the game we saw about 7 or 8 such calls on both sides. I even think they called Jake for putting his forearm on the defender while both of his arms were spread out wide. It made the game painful to watch. Moreover it made the game painful to play and both teams players were visibly frustrated with the officiating. You could also tell they were making bad calls by the number of make up calls. There were several times Creighton would get four or five fouls in a row and like clockwork we would get the next four or five.  Granted some of that can be attributed to the ebb and flow of the game, but clearly there was some compensating for missed or bad calls. This only exacerbated problems though because they would make up for bad calls...with more bad calls. Frustrating to watch. Creighton earned the W but both teams deserved a better officiating crew.

[CreightonWarrior]

It's a legit topic .. while it's possible I missed the NCAA handbook on this, I look at the NFL for a 'good' example of how they approach ref quality in terms of game-by-game review and grading.   Not that the NCAA should grade every game, but they clearly need to vote some guys off the island every season.

The NFL isn't that great of an example because Jeff Triplette reffed a playoff game.

I'll say this about the officiating last night...it was absolutely brutal to watch. The second half just didn't move. I think it prevented you guys from making a comeback but prevented us from pulling away until we finally executed down the stretch. Your booing of the refs on every one of our offensive possessions during that stretch, while completely warranted of the refs, definitely put our offensive into an uncomfortable feel and probably affected them worse than standing and cheering did.

I'll maintain, like most here, that the calls did not favor either team but I think the style ended up favoring us based on free throw ability.

I definitely recognize that no one here is really blaming the officials for the loss, recognizing there wasn't much of a bias and also that the guy that started the other thread hasn't posted here but it is a little ironic that there is still a thread on the first page saying that Creighton is already blaming the officials.

I bet we see you guys in the BE tourney and wish you all luck down the stretch. Hopefully you'll be able to do what you need to do to get into the dance and I'll especially be rooting for MU against Nova.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have the seen the phrase "worst officiating I have ever seen" after every single loss this season.

My guess is while we may have still agreed it was bad officiating, no one would be using this phrase if we had won.

You can say it's just about how it affected the product on the floor, but it is definitely fueled by being upset that we lost and the subconscious belief that it somehow affected our chances at victory.

[CreightonWarrior]

I have the seen the phrase "worst officiating I have ever seen" after every single loss this season.

My guess is while we may have still agreed it was bad officiating, no one would be using this phrase if we had won.

You can say it's just about how it affected the product on the floor, but it is definitely fueled by being upset that we lost and the subconscious belief that it somehow affected our chances at victory.

100% guarantee refs would be blamed pretty heavily by some over on our board had Marquette come out on top the way this game was called.

[Hubert Davis]

Pathetic display of officiating!! Horrible for both teams. I commend Buzz's patience because if I would've ran and tackled one of those zebras after a few of those calls. That's also probably why I am not a basketball coach....

Loved the booing. If the refs suck that bad, let them hear it!!!

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

There was one point after another awful call against Jamil and everybody start booing again. Jamil just looked right at the student section and started waving his arms up and down to get the student section to boo louder. Really surprised he didnt get T'd up for that.

[MUfan12]

Really surprised he didnt get T'd up for that.

Or get a coaches box warning.

[River rat]

The thing that really upset me was in the first half 6-7-8 times Mu players got really hammered going to the basket, bumped hard or raked across the arms and there were not calls. Big no calls in a game that we were down 6-7-8-9 points.  then in the second half any bump or breath on a creighton player was a foul.  All occurred on the ned where the buzzcut guy was werking the baseline.  Called no fouls on them when we were going that direction and in the next half everything on us

[MerrittsMustache]

The thing that really upset me was in the first half 6-7-8 times Mu players got really hammered going to the basket, bumped hard or raked across the arms and there were not calls. Big no calls in a game that we were down 6-7-8-9 points.  then in the second half any bump or breath on a creighton player was a foul.  All occurred on the ned where the buzzcut guy was werking the baseline.  Called no fouls on them when we were going that direction and in the next half everything on us

Creighton was whistled for more fouls than Marquette in both halves. MU shot 11 more FTs in the 1st half and 3 more in the 2nd. The number of off-ball fouls was unusually high on both ends, particularly in the 2nd half, but the officials were hardly one-sided.

I understand where in-stadium fans are coming from because often with an off-ball foul, fans don't see it because they're focusing on the ball and there's no replay. If a foul on your team doesn't take place in clear view, human nature assumes that the officials got the call wrong.

Question: If both teams are dissatisfied with the officiating, does that mean that it was a fairly officiated game?

[jesmu84]

Creighton was whistled for more fouls than Marquette in both halves. MU shot 11 more FTs in the 1st half and 3 more in the 2nd. The number of off-ball fouls was unusually high on both ends, particularly in the 2nd half, but the officials were hardly one-sided.

I understand where in-stadium fans are coming from because often with an off-ball foul, fans don't see it because they're focusing on the ball and there's no replay. If a foul on your team doesn't take place in clear view, human nature assumes that the officials got the call wrong.

Question: If both teams are dissatisfied with the officiating, does that mean that it was a fairly officiated game?

Fair, yes. Good, no.

[River rat]

Creighton was whistled for more fouls than Marquette in both halves. MU shot 11 more FTs in the 1st half and 3 more in the 2nd. The number of off-ball fouls was unusually high on both ends, particularly in the 2nd half, but the officials were hardly one-sided.

I understand where in-stadium fans are coming from because often with an off-ball foul, fans don't see it because they're focusing on the ball and there's no replay. If a foul on your team doesn't take place in clear view, human nature assumes that the officials got the call wrong.

Question: If both teams are dissatisfied with the officiating, does that mean that it was a fairly officiated game?

Umm I watched the game on TV.  And Like Buzz stated it is not a refs job to call the same number of both teams.  Creighton are perimeter passers and Jump shooters = not alot of fouls .  Mu feeds the post and drives.  
On at least half a dozen occassions in the first half, jake, jamil, and Devante were fouled with an arm accross both of the shooters forearms, which i replayed multiple times and there was no call.  Or drivers were hip checked while driving and missed shots with no call with the buzz cut guy 5 feet awat.  in the second half there were multiple ghost callswhere there was no contact on Creighton drives and the same buzz cut guy game off the baseline with his arm up.   Given the styles of play MU should have significantly more fouls called aginst the opposition.  That is why Buzz follows the stat so closely, paint touches lead to fouls.  A huge factor in the game was the 6-7-8 drives in the first half that resulted in turnovers or missed shots when they were clear ly fouls but no whistle was blown.  they put us in catchup mode the rest of the night.  And I am one that rarely rarely say anything about refs.  I thought the second half was poorly officiated both ways.  In the first half Mu got plain screwed.

[MerrittsMustache]

Umm I watched the game on TV.  And Like Buzz stated it is not a refs job to call the same number of both teams.  Creighton are perimeter passers and Jump shooters = not alot of fouls .  Mu feeds the post and drives.  
On at least half a dozen occassions in the first half, jake, jamil, and Devante were fouled with an arm accross both of the shooters forearms, which i replayed multiple times and there was no call.  Or drivers were hip checked while driving and missed shots with no call with the buzz cut guy 5 feet awat.  in the second half there were multiple ghost callswhere there was no contact on Creighton drives and the same buzz cut guy game off the baseline with his arm up.   Given the styles of play MU should have significantly more fouls called aginst the opposition.  That is why Buzz follows the stat so closely, paint touches lead to fouls.  A huge factor in the game was the 6-7-8 drives in the first half that resulted in turnovers or missed shots when they were clear ly fouls but no whistle was blown.  they put us in catchup mode the rest of the night.  And I am one that rarely rarely say anything about refs.  I thought the second half was poorly officiated both ways.  In the first half Mu got plain screwed.

Marquette drew 36.4% more fouls than Creighton and took 63.6% more FTs. That's significantly more.