At this point

[Texas Western]

How do you judge talent?  On potential?  If that's the case, you are probably right.

But as for right now?  Hmmmm...how are you sure about that?

I am not saying that Derrick and Jake are without talent. I am saying their talent is one dimensional in each case. I have no problem with Derrick getting to start and playing the first five minutes of each half and aggressive try to make things happen on the defensive end. Also have no problem having Jack come in from time to time and when circumstances warrant to provide some shooting .  They work hard deserve to play and add value if properly managed. however their liabilities are great so I believe  their minutes have to be focused I we are to win.The freshman all are much more of an offensive threat , and have the ability to create on their own .  They have a higher ceiling and only get better with time.  The team benefits the more they play. I guarantee you these players all see the same things we do.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I thought Archie's post was very well thought out. I personally want every MArquette player to succeed. I get frustrated with posters trumpeting every little thing Derrick does well and justifying his mediocre play and I feel it antagonizes posters who think his game is suspect. He seems like a great kid and I don't want to continually break him down. That being said, I also am mentally drained watching him run the point game after game. If anything I should rip Buzz's choice to continually play him max minutes. Anyways here's to a Marquette butt thumping tomorrow!! Hope Derrick goes for 20 and 10 

I'll drink to that!

[GGGG]

I am not saying that Derrick and Jake are without talent. I am saying their talent is one dimensional in each case. I have no problem with Derrick getting to start and playing the first five minutes of each half and aggressive try to make things happen on the defensive end. Also have no problem having Jack come in from time to time and when circumstances warrant to provide some shooting .  They work hard deserve to play and add value if properly managed. however their liabilities are great so I believe  their minutes have to be focused I we are to win.The freshman all are much more of an offensive threat , and have the ability to create on their own .  They have a higher ceiling and only get better with time.  The team benefits the more they play. I guarantee you these players all see the same things we do.

So what if, say for instance, the Derrick Wilson was regularly handling John Dawson in practice?

[GGGG]

The issue is....is that the defense being played across the country this year, isn't as good as last year - likely due to new hand check rules.  What that also means is that our offensive rating should have risen accordingly...but instead...we've regressed from last year...that is a double whammy.  We face less defensive challenge essentially this year, yet are 2 points (not basketball points) worse in our Offensive Efficiency Rating.

Again - the 94.2 rating we posted in 2012-2013 was good for 46th in the country.  This year, that number would be good for 19th in the country...means across the board, defense isn't being played as well this year as last....which again should lead to a natural uptick in our offensive efficiency...but instead we've regressed over last year offensively...

These are some very good points.  I don't have the access to see how if the Adj OR has gone up on overall average due to rule changes or not, but on face value it makes sense.

[NersEllenson]

I am not saying that Derrick and Jake are without talent. I am saying their talent is one dimensional in each case. I have no problem with Derrick getting to start and playing the first five minutes of each half and aggressive try to make things happen on the defensive end. Also have no problem having Jack come in from time to time and when circumstances warrant to provide some shooting .  They work hard deserve to play and add value if properly managed. however their liabilities are great so I believe  their minutes have to be focused I we are to win.The freshman all are much more of an offensive threat , and have the ability to create on their own .  They have a higher ceiling and only get better with time.  The team benefits the more they play. I guarantee you these players all see the same things we do.

I think the attached screen shot from Ken Pomroy speaks to the point you are making.  I would highly doubt there is another team with its lead minute getter, and 2nd leading minute getter who show up in the "Limited Roles" category....interesting to see Burton is seen as a go to guy by Pomroy's metrics...which the eye test certainly confirms...

[willie warrior]

I think the attached screen shot from Ken Pomroy speaks to the point you are making.  I would highly doubt there is another team with its lead minute getter, and 2nd leading minute getter who show up in the "Limited Roles" category....interesting to see Burton is seen as a go to guy by Pomroy's metrics...which the eye test certainly confirms...

Ners--how dare you post a statistical chart that shows that according to national stats Jake and derrick are limited role offensive players? How dare you? This only demonstrates that Buzz's stubbornness of playing these guys so many minutes is misguided. It also destroys the narratives of some on this board that these guys deserve all the minutes they can get, because in Buzz we trust, they are lock down defenders and gamechangers, according to the Coach--who subscribes to his own stats. How dare you. Of course now comes the obligatory slams on Ners, Pomeroy, and against any objective analysis. These are just meaningless stats, while opinions have greater value.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ners--how dare you post a statistical chart that shows that according to national stats Jake and derrick are limited role offensive players? How dare you? This only demonstrates that Buzz's stubbornness of playing these guys so many minutes is misguided. It also destroys the narratives of some on this board that these guys deserve all the minutes they can get, because in Buzz we trust, they are lock down defenders and gamechangers, according to the Coach--who subscribes to his own stats. How dare you. Of course now comes the obligatory slams on Ners, Pomeroy, and against any objective analysis. These are just meaningless stats, while opinions have greater value.

I will agree that it shows they are limited role offensive players. What it does not show is that the people behind them would be any better. Once again, no one has ever claimed that Derrick and Jake are world beaters on offense. I have used the term "limited role player" myself on many occasion. What we argue is that there is nobody better to take their place, they are the best we have right now. Pomroy also has Dawson in the limited role players and Jake is our only three point shooter on the team.

I also don't see anything there that disproves their value on defense.

EDIT: After re looking at the chart, the Burton being a go to guy stat is a little skewed. KP bases this off % of possessions used. You only get marked as used if you take a shot, make an assist, turn it over, or grab a board. All this tells me about Burton is that when he gets the ball, he is looking to shoot or turn it over. One of the two.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Double post

[willie warrior]

I will agree that it shows they are limited role offensive players. What it does not show is that the people behind them would be any better. Once again, no one has ever claimed that Derrick and Jake are world beaters on offense. I have used the term "limited role player" myself on many occasion. What we argue is that there is nobody better to take their place, they are the best we have right now. Pomroy also has Dawson in the limited role players and Jake is our only three point shooter on the team.

I also don't see anything there that disproves their value on defense.

EDIT: After re looking at the chart, the Burton being a go to guy stat is a little skewed. KP bases this off % of possessions used. You only get marked as used if you take a shot, make an assist, turn it over, or grab a board. All this tells me about Burton is that when he gets the ball, he is looking to shoot or turn it over. One of the two.

Big assumption "right now", because there are guys sitting on the bench that have only seen limited duty this year. Many believe that Jake and Derrick have reached their max with the limitations still there, so the argument can still be made that the other guys should be getting more minutes to develop. several guys could be getting more minutes, but not happening under Buzz's system. I Know, I know, this has been debated ad infinitum, but guess what? It is very embarrassing that our starting backcourt, getting about 70 minutes a game are considered "limited role". And that is a major factor in a 15-11 record and middle of the pack conference standings. What happens next year, will our starting PG still get 38 minutes a game? If so, he better significantly improve his perimeter shooting and FT shooting, and scoring. How many believe that will happen? Yes he can play defense, but we will still suffer offensively, considering we will be losing about 55-60% of our offense. All of this is directly on da coach.

[g0lden3agle]

I think the attached screen shot from Ken Pomroy speaks to the point you are making.  I would highly doubt there is another team with its lead minute getter, and 2nd leading minute getter who show up in the "Limited Roles" category....interesting to see Burton is seen as a go to guy by Pomroy's metrics...which the eye test certainly confirms...

The next 3 top minute getters are getting 72.1 of the possessions, and I don't see anyone complaining about Davante, Jamil, and Todd getting too many touches.  So I guess I'm just wondering who you want to take the ball away from to get Derrick and Jake more touches. 

Forgive my formatting, but I just looked at 2 other teams quickly to see the top 5 minute getters and their % of play stats.  I don't see anything wildly out of the ordinary for MU:

Marquette                               Creighton                        Butler   
Name           Minute %   Play %   Name              Minute %   Play %   Name         Minute %  Play %
Derrick Wilson   74.5   15.2      Doug McDermott   81.9   32.3      Kellen Dunham   87.8   24.5
                              
Jake Thomas   69.2   13.3      Austin Chatman   71.8   17.4      Kameron Woods   81   17.8
                              
Jamil Wilson   68.6   24.2      Jahenns Manigat   69.8   13.1      Alex Barlow   77.3   13.2
                              
Davante Gardner   65.2   24.7      Ethan Wragge   67.5   14.1      Khyle Marshall   70.2   26.7
                              
Todd Mayo           50.9   23.2      Grant Gibbs           49.9   17.5      Erik Fromm           54.1   16.6