SHU +/-

[jesmu84]

Code Select Expand

               Min         +/-     +        -
J. Wilson 35   16   71   -55
J. Anderson 21   -3   36   -39
C. Otule 20   -5   34   -39
D. Wilson 27   18   61   -43
J. Thomas 34   18   71   -53
J. Dawson 9   2   14   -12
T. Mayo         27   1   49   -48
J. Johnson 1   -3   0   -3
D. Burton 6   -5   6   -11
D. Gardner 20   16   43   -2         

Have at it

[PGsHeroes32]

Not surprised. Confirms what I said about our best lineup right now.

[brandx]

Even without great offensive games tonite, Derrick & Jake lead the way.

That is why they get the minutes and the freshmen don't.

[forgetful]

Not surprised. Confirms what I said about our best lineup right now.

Confused by this.  You have been completely against J. Thomas and have continuously spoken bad about D. Wilson.  The stats show that they were the best tonight.

[chapman]

Another interesting thing to think through; I keep playing through the reverse +/- in my mind, i.e. what happened when some of the guys above sat.  In a way it can show value more.

[jesmu84]

Another interesting thing to think through; I keep playing through the reverse +/- in my mind, i.e. what happened when some of the guys above sat.  In a way it can show value more.

Would off-court +/- help you?

Code Select Expand


                               Min         +/-      +       -
Marquette J. Wilson 35    -5     6    -11
Marquette J. Anderson 21    14    41    -27
Marquette C. Otule 20    16    43    -27
Marquette D. Wilson 27    -7    16    -23
Marquette J. Thomas 34    -7    6    -13
Marquette J. Dawson 9    9    63    -54
Marquette T. Mayo         27    10    28    -18
Marquette J. Johnson 1    14    77    -63
Marquette D. Burton 6    16    71    -55
Marquette D. Gardner 20    -5    34    -39

[BallBoy]

Not surprised. Confirms what I said about our best lineup right now.

What was your best lineup because you knocked two of those guys relentlessly?

[PGsHeroes32]

Confused by this.  You have been completely against J. Thomas and have continuously spoken bad about D. Wilson.  The stats show that they were the best tonight.

Nope I have been vehemently against them playing without Mayo, Ox and Jamil. I have said all year that there needs to be two of those guys at least on the floor together, if not 3.

I have also said to the people who hate derrick and jake that they have assets, they just need to be used properly. Now todays rare game aside....I see no reason Juan or Chris should play much at all.

[Eldon]

Nope I have been vehemently against them playing without Mayo, Ox and Jamil. I have said all year that there needs to be two of those guys at least on the floor together, if not 3.

I have also said to the people who hate derrick and jake that they have assets, they just need to be used properly. Now todays rare game aside....I see no reason Juan or Chris should play much at all.

I disagree with you about Otule.  I think he is more valuable than people realize.  There is tremendous value to having a near-7ft guy standing in the paint. 

[PGsHeroes32]

I disagree with you about Otule.  I think he is more valuable than people realize.  There is tremendous value to having a near-7ft guy standing in the paint. 

Some games I agree. But his ability to hold on to the ball and constantly bring it into his body kills us at times.

There are games(butler) where his presence helps. But it's amazing some of the issues he still has in his 6th year.

[tower912]

http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/11/marquette-77-seton-hall-66

Another look at +/-

[GGGG]

This kind of confirms what I thought...

Derrick was +18.
Dawson was +2 despite a poor performance.

MU was -9 without either on the floor. 

[CTWarrior]

This kind of confirms what I thought...

Derrick was +18.
Dawson was +2 despite a poor performance.

MU was -9 without either on the floor. 

How accurate is this +/- stuff, actually?  When Derrick left in the first half, it was 18-12 (18-11, but SHU was at the line on his foul and made 1 of 2, which I assume would count against his time), so MU is +6 with him.  Then he played the whole second half in which MU was +10.  So that is +16.  How do we get +18?  Inconsequential really in the grand scheme of things, but I was just wondering.  It is possible, for example, that he came out for a possession in the second half and I missed it.

[chapman]

Would off-court +/- help you?

Code Select Expand


                               Min         +/-      +       -
Marquette J. Wilson 35    -5     6    -11
Marquette J. Anderson 21    14    41    -27
Marquette C. Otule 20    16    43    -27
Marquette D. Wilson 27    -7    16    -23
Marquette J. Thomas 34    -7    6    -13
Marquette J. Dawson 9    9    63    -54
Marquette T. Mayo         27    10    28    -18
Marquette J. Johnson 1    14    77    -63
Marquette D. Burton 6    16    71    -55
Marquette D. Gardner 20    -5    34    -39

Indeed, thanks.  I find it quite interesting to look at both sides. 

[mattyv1908]

+/- in basketball is much less effective at evaluating a players contribution then a game like hockey with lot's of line changes and little scoring.

Basketball is a game of runs and because of that it can weigh heavily on the +/- numbers for those in the game during those times.  Jamil Wilson's opening stretch not only positively affected the numbers for our guys but also had a huge negative impact on SH's players.  I can't recall the player for SH who is from Europe but he had a similar effect on the +/- figures when he went on his mini run of his own.

It's too flawed a metric in this sport to spend too much time discussing.  I think points/possession and opponent's points/possession are better indicators of a players overall value to being on the floor.  Even those are at the mercy of other people making or missing shots.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

+/- in basketball is much less effective at evaluating a players contribution then a game like hockey with lot's of line changes and little scoring.

Basketball is a game of runs and because of that it can weigh heavily on the +/- numbers for those in the game during those times.  Jamil Wilson's opening stretch not only positively affected the numbers for our guys but also had a huge negative impact on SH's players.  I can't recall the player for SH who is from Europe but he had a similar effect on the +/- figures when he went on his mini run of his own.

It's too flawed a metric in this sport to spend too much time discussing.  I think points/possession and opponent's points/possession are better indicators of a players overall value to being on the floor.  Even those are at the mercy of other people making or missing shots.

I agree that it's an imperfect stat, but I do love it. It's one of the only way I know how to quantify all the little things that player's do. Like Otule sealing off defenders in the lane, Jake stretching the defense, Derrick playing disruptive defense.

[Pakuni]

+/- in basketball is much less effective at evaluating a players contribution then a game like hockey with lot's of line changes and little scoring..

Actually, +/- is almost entirely useless as a hockey stat as well.

[jesmu84]

How accurate is this +/- stuff, actually?  When Derrick left in the first half, it was 18-12 (18-11, but SHU was at the line on his foul and made 1 of 2, which I assume would count against his time), so MU is +6 with him.  Then he played the whole second half in which MU was +10.  So that is +16.  How do we get +18?  Inconsequential really in the grand scheme of things, but I was just wondering.  It is possible, for example, that he came out for a possession in the second half and I missed it.

CT - look at this site: http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/11/marquette-77-seton-hall-66/plus_minus

You can see each players' plus/minus by minutes and such. Derrick was +6 in his first half play and +12 in his second half play.

[GooooMarquette]

CT - look at this site: http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/11/marquette-77-seton-hall-66/plus_minus

You can see each players' plus/minus by minutes and such. Derrick was +6 in his first half play and +12 in his second half play.

I think that's the root of CT's question, though:  The website play-by-play shows Derrick playing the entire second half, yet credits him with +12...even though we outscored them by 10 in the second half.  +12 would make sense if Derrick was out briefly in the second half and SHU scored 2 pts, but I don't think that happened.

[jesmu84]

I think that's the root of CT's question, though:  The website play-by-play shows Derrick playing the entire second half, yet credits him with +12...even though we outscored them by 10 in the second half.  +12 would make sense if Derrick was out briefly in the second half and SHU scored 2 pts, but I don't think that happened.

Gotcha. There is an error apparently. If you hover over Derrick's bars, it says we were down 34-35 when Derrick came in in the second half. Not sure why.

[Henry Sugar]

I personally think +/- is useless.

[CTWarrior]

Gotcha. There is an error apparently. If you hover over Derrick's bars, it says we were down 34-35 when Derrick came in in the second half. Not sure why.

Says that for everybody who started the second half (and ended the first half).  Probably just a coincidence.  I wouldn't normally question except Derrick's was easy to figure out without any effort due to his only having one streak on the bench.

[MuMark]

If you watched the game you don't need +/- to tell you MU was much better with Derrick in the game then when he was on the bench last night.....

[ATL MU Warrior]

If you watched the game you don't need +/- to tell you MU was much better with Derrick in the game then when he was on the bench last night.....

+10000000

[BenCat12]

I personally think +/- is useless.

You seem to be the resident stat geek, care to explain why it is useless?