Overtraining

[MU1980]

I have been reading MUScoop for years, but rarely post.  However, I have never seen a discussion on here about overtraining.  I come from a physiology background and think this could be an issue.  We all know that Buzz works his guys very hard and boot camp is incredibly tough.  You also hear discussions of how hard they work even in their shoot-around's on the day of a game.  You definitely need to work hard to get better, both physically and mentally, but your body and mind also needs rest, especially during the season.  I have never heard of so many basketball players getting stress fractures, as this team has done over the years, including our promising freshman point guard this year.  Stress fractures are more likely in runners doing 15 miles a day, not basketball players, although I do realize it does happen.  Also, it just seems strange that the team can look so energetic one game and so lifeless the next, which is a sign of overtraining.  It is hard to be consistent when you are overtrained. 

And just to be clear, I am a huge fan of Buzz, but it does seem like these guys are overworked at times.  With a talented team with great leadership, that overtraining can be overcome easier than in a down year like this, but even past teams at times showed signs of overtraining.  I believe Crean worked his guys incredibly hard as well, which does make them tougher, but also creates an increased chance of overuse injuries, as well as fatigue resulting in poor defense at times, inability to make free throws consistently, etc.  Just throwing this out there and wondering what people closer to the program might think about this, especially if they have more of a physiology background. 

[BCHoopster]

Kids love to play ball, they all want to be pros, over training I would doubt it.

[MU1980]

Kids love to play ball, they all want to be pros, over training I would doubt it.

Overtraining is a very real thing and why I was curious if someone with a physiology background had any thoughts.  No matter how much you love to do something, you can become overtrained, which shows up as overuse injuries and things like being a step slower on defense.  It is more common in the endurance sports such as running, biking, and swimming, but it can happen to anyone who works really hard.  Believe me, I strongly believe in hard work, but pushing yourself extremely hard at 6 am on the morning of a game doesn't seem conducive to energetic play.  It could also make it more difficult to come back in less than 48 hours for a second game, if you are overtrained. 

[MUUWUWM]

Duane Wilson is a workout machine...he did it to himself...this one not on Buzz.

[MU1980]

Duane Wilson is a workout machine...he did it to himself...this one not on Buzz.

Not necessarily disagreeing and it is nice to see that Duane Wilson has a good work ethic, but has he ever had stress fracture before?  Also, we have had several stress fractures the last several years, something I don't hear of with other programs. 

I am not knocking Buzz; I think it is great that he gets the players to buy into working hard and the improvement that many of his players have.  I still think most basketball coaches have very little knowledge of exercise science and it might help to have someone on staff that does have that background.

I remember Crean used to have the players do a VO2max test every year.  There is zero benefit for having them do this, as a high or low VO2 max has very little to do with basketball.

[GGGG]

Have we had multiple stress fractures under Buzz?  I honestly can't recall another one.  Was Otule's foot a stress fracture?

The only thing I will say is that under Buzz, we have a couple games like this every year.  Where the team looks absolutely lethargic.  I have no idea if that is due to overtraining, or simply part of the rhythm of the season. 

[mileskishnish72]

I do have some physiology and have wondered in the past about our plethora of foot injuries. At one time I suggested that we check our workout program and/or the surface at the Al. Stress fractures are overuse injuries and usually related to training errors. They used to be called "march fractures" because indolents would be drafted and sustain stress fractures when they had to march a lot in basic training. Usually, an increase in activity beyond the bone's ability to respond (adapt) is the culprit. So in an active kid like Duane, a stress fracture does suggest overdoing it (so-called overtraining).

[rocket surgeon]

as long as mu1980 bring's crean into the picture-"i believe crean worked his guys incredibly hard as well, which makes them tougher, but..."  is that kinda like a key player breaking his hand, back in the day, by turning to the wall to take out his frustrations instead of the man himself?  that kind of tough?  now that's what i call a "stress fracture"   

[Silkk the Shaka]

Have we had multiple stress fractures under Buzz?  I honestly can't recall another one.  Was Otule's foot a stress fracture?

The only thing I will say is that under Buzz, we have a couple games like this every year.  Where the team looks absolutely lethargic.  I have no idea if that is due to overtraining, or simply part of the rhythm of the season. 

DJames' foot was a stress fracture. Fulce's kneecap may have been as well but not positive. Not endorsing the premise, just trying to provide info.

[MUeng]

I say enough with the excuses, explanations, etc. Lets just embrace the suck! Any loss less than 10 points is a moral victory!

[chapman]

I still think most basketball coaches have very little knowledge of exercise science and it might help to have someone on staff that does have that background.

I think the head coach should have a Bachelor's and Master's degree in kinesiology!  Oh, wait...

[GGGG]

I am not knocking Buzz; I think it is great that he gets the players to buy into working hard and the improvement that many of his players have.  I still think most basketball coaches have very little knowledge of exercise science and it might help to have someone on staff that does have that background.

Todd Smith?

[MU1980]

I think the head coach should have a Bachelor's and Master's degree in kinesiology!  Oh, wait...

Did not realize Buzz had his degrees in Kinesiology, which is excellent, but it is different than exercise physiology or exercise science.  Kinesiology is more about the study of human movement as opposed to the effects of training on the body, both inside and out.   

Todd Smith does have a degree in exercise science and is an excellent strength coach. 

This post was not about a complaint about Buzz and certainly not Todd, but just something that has intrigued me when I have seen several overuse injuries over the years and the team being so inconsistent this year, with a dramatic difference in energy levels from game to game.   

[chapman]

We have Ernest Eugene as well.  Big asset to the program.

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/sports-med/mtt/eugene_ernest00.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUmHCYMXTuw

[Velodrome]

Long time lurker first time poster.  I'm not a physiologist but I am a highly competitive masters cyclist who works with them.  I would think it highly unlikely these guys are classically overtrained, which i would describe as a decrease in meaasured performance associated with either an increase in training load or sustained training load.  For a cyclist this is pretty easy to measure with a powermeter and some computer software.  From my experience it takes a huge amount of training load sustained over many months to reach this point.  A periodized training program 3 weeks increasing load 1 week active recovery is usually all it takes to avoid this.

These are elete athletes, highly motivated, the amount of training load they can withstand is amazingly high.  Add in that they have the best coaches trainers and facilities money can buy to help with recovery and i would highly doubt they would meet my definition of overtrained.

Some of them do look frustrated....

[Dawson Rental]

In another thread, a poster brings up the fact that the team went to a Broadway show the night before as a potential reason for the bad game.  At one point in the game, Rafferty pointed out that Deonte was showing signs of being gassed which had me wondering if cardio training had fallen off during the season.

Undertraining, overtraining, distraction?  Who knows?  The one thing that is clear is that this team is a head scratcher.

[tower912]

This year is an outlier in so many ways.   As opposed to the previous coach who's teams seemed to peak in December, Buzz's teams seem to find their rhythm and play better late in the year.    The puzzle pieces haven't fit this year.    They haven't overtrained. 

[MU1980]

Long time lurker first time poster.  I'm not a physiologist but I am a highly competitive masters cyclist who works with them.  I would think it highly unlikely these guys are classically overtrained, which i would describe as a decrease in meaasured performance associated with either an increase in training load or sustained training load.  For a cyclist this is pretty easy to measure with a powermeter and some computer software.  From my experience it takes a huge amount of training load sustained over many months to reach this point.  A periodized training program 3 weeks increasing load 1 week active recovery is usually all it takes to avoid this.

These are elete athletes, highly motivated, the amount of training load they can withstand is amazingly high.  Add in that they have the best coaches trainers and facilities money can buy to help with recovery and i would highly doubt they would meet my definition of overtrained.

Some of them do look frustrated....

Thanks for the post and you do bring up some excellent points.  Being overtrained is more of a long term thing, where as you can be overworked on a given day or days.  I do believe during the summer and pre-season there is a definite chance that they are overtrained, which is when the overuse injuries have occurred for the most part, not during the season. 

One question I have is if their intense practices during the shoot around, sometimes at 6 am, is true.  I am not sure what the point of that would be.  On game day, you need every bit of mental and physical energy that you can possibly have, especially with the way they play defense.  It is oftentimes talked about on here how certain players look gassed at the end of the game or why Wilson's defense is worse at the end of the game.  With a more relaxed shoot around later in the day, such as most teams do, I would think this would at least help the late game fatigue. 

[GGGG]

In another thread, a poster brings up the fact that the team went to a Broadway show the night before as a potential reason for the bad game.  At one point in the game, Rafferty pointed out that Deonte was showing signs of being gassed which had me wondering if cardio training had fallen off during the season.

Undertraining, overtraining, distraction?  Who knows?  The one thing that is clear is that this team is a head scratcher.

I have no idea why going to a Broadway show would be a problem.  As opposed to sitting in the hotel?

[chapman]

The 40 hour turnaround for this game was brutal.  They flew out to New York after the game Thursday night, getting in after midnight.  No idea what the schedule looked like, but near impossible everyone was feeling like a million bucks yesterday.

[bilsu]

Providence has two players that are averaging over 40 minutes a game, so it is hard to say this team is overworked. However, everyone body is different.

[Archies Bat]

The 40 hour turnaround for this game was brutal.  They flew out to New York after the game Thursday night, getting in after midnight.  No idea what the schedule looked like, but near impossible everyone was feeling like a million bucks yesterday.

The super bowl was also in town, and all the related activities, plenty of opportunity for distraction.

However, their year to date did not give them the luxury of being distracted yesterday.

[jesmu84]

In another thread, a poster brings up the fact that the team went to a Broadway show the night before as a potential reason for the bad game.  At one point in the game, Rafferty pointed out that Deonte was showing signs of being gassed which had me wondering if cardio training had fallen off during the season.

Undertraining, overtraining, distraction?  Who knows?  The one thing that is clear is that this team is a head scratcher.

I know this sounds stupid, but I really hope Burton's obvious lack of defense in the second half was a result of him being tired and not a result of watching Gardner take off defensive possessions every once in a while.

[brandx]

I know this sounds stupid, but I really hope Burton's obvious lack of defense in the second half was a result of him being tired and not a result of watching Gardner take off defensive possessions every once in a while.

I think it was cuz Buzz was pissed at Jamil and Mayo and Deonte played a much longer stretch than he is used to. There is a huge difference between practice and being on the floor during a game.

A 19-20 year old kid should be able to play 40 minutes (ala Kemba's 5 games in 5 days), but if you aren't used to playing more than 2 or 3 minutes at a time, I think you get gassed pretty quick. And it's not like he is the kind of player who stands in the corner and waits for a pass.

[Warriors10]

Well one thing is for certain...they aren't over-training there shooting.