Tip of the hat to Ners

[NersEllenson]

You're right. Dawson has no limitations which is why he's considered by everyone to be the top player in all of college basketball and every time a MU player misses a shot it's because Derrick Wilson is so terrible! Why can't Buzz see that?!

Seriously, Ners, you're far too close-minded and oblivious to continue debating with. It's pointless to try to rationalize with someone as irrational (and obnoxious) as you are on this topic.

See below.  Thanks BrandX.  Sadly, you are just too close minded and small ego'd that you can't acknowledge the position you've held regarding Derrick versus Dawson simply was wrong.  All I've said is Derrick is not a high major starting PG, and is best cut out to be a backup, 10-15 minute per game, guy who gives breather to starter, and in the process doesn't screw the game up.  And, that is a valuable role for a guy to play on a team, and the role Derrick is best suited for.

So the best way to argue with Ners is to make a preposterous statement in your 1st paragraph and then proceed to call HIM out in the next?

Ners (nor anyone else) NEVER said Dawson had no limitations.
Ners  (nor anyone else) NEVER said Dawson was the top player in college basketball.
Ners (nor anyone else) NEVER said every missed shot was dW's fault.

You have made some good points in some of your posts, but if you want to argue with Ners, do it on the basis of what he said. Don't make up a storyline and argue against your own silly statements.

[NersEllenson]

One of Buzz's replies on his radio show was about Dawson's work ethic, how he shows up every day, how he wants to be coached, how he is told to do something and he does it.   I watched him in the cupcake games and did not like what I saw from him running the point.   Against Georgetown, he looked ready.   So, yes, I believe he has improved this season.   I think he is better than he was 4-6 weeks ago.   I do not think he was ready to face Aaron Craft in November.   I think he is better now, though still not ready to face Craft.  I also am not ready to just pencil him in for performances like he had against Georgetown.   I remember Amo in the Alaskan shootout.   I remember Mason against Louisville.   I remember Reggie Smith starting over Junior.    I think he is better than he was, that he has improved. I hope it continues.   I think Derrick should have been the starter all along and should continue to be.    These are not incompatible thoughts.  

See....I liked what I saw of Dawson running the point in the cupcake games - albeit Grambling was about the only game he got to run exclusively point.  Didn't like him playing off the ball for 2-3 minute stints in other games.  It was because of what I did see against Grambling and Ball State (if I recall correctly), that led me to believe he was gonna be a good prospect/PG.  He certainly hasn't failed me in either the Xavier game or now G'Town.

I agree with you, that Dawson may not have consistent games like the one he had against GTown.  Yet I also know Derrick has been far more prone to a game of 4ppg on 35% shooting, in 30+ minutes of play, than putting up 12-14 points and 5 assists.  Also know the team beat nobody of consequence with Derrick getting 30+ minutes.  Also know points per possession have never been worse in the Buzz era than they have been this year.  Also know every announcer and our head coach recognizes we were playing 4 on 5 with Derrick at point.

As for Ammo, Mason, etc., - I'd love to just see Derrick have a breakout game where he single handidly leads us to victory such as Ammo, Mason did - Derrick's had 3 years now to do so, and has yet to do it.

[tower912]

And I think this is where we started this fundamental disagreement.   I watched him against Grambling and thought he was barely ready to run the point against that team.  A perception thing.   Two eyewitnesses saw different things.   I have said that he has come far.   And again, you are being unfair to Derrick.   See Wisconsin with Junior suspended.   See Pittsburg when Junior sprained his ankle.    Derrick stepped in and, though he didn't fill the stat sheet, led those teams to wins against tough teams on the road.   By doing what he is doing this year.   Taking care of the ball and playing good defense.    The difference is that those teams had other guys willing to consistently initiate offense (see: Blue, Vander; Crowder, Jae)    This team hasn't had that consistently.  

[MerrittsMustache]

See below.  Thanks BrandX.  Sadly, you are just too close minded and small ego'd that you can't acknowledge the position you've held regarding Derrick versus Dawson simply was wrong.  All I've said is Derrick is not a high major starting PG, and is best cut out to be a backup, 10-15 minute per game, guy who gives breather to starter, and in the process doesn't screw the game up.  And, that is a valuable role for a guy to play on a team, and the role Derrick is best suited for.

SIGH...No one is arguing that Derrick's best role is as the starting PG. The argument is that, despite being best suited to be a back-up, Derrick is starting and seeing so many minutes because he's the best option. When Scott Tolzien was forced to start for the Packers, were the fans criticizing him for being a back-up quality player? No, because, despite being a back-up, he was the best option at that point. In the same respect, Derrick Wilson has been the best option as the starting PG for this team. Period. Yes, Dawson had a good game against Georgetown and hopefully he continues to play well for the remainder of the season. I'd have no problem with John Dawson becoming a very productive player for MU as a freshman. If he helps MU win games, I'm all for it! I'm just not ready to anoint him as the starting PG because he had one strong performance.

[jesmu84]

See....I liked what I saw of Dawson running the point in the cupcake games - albeit Grambling was about the only game he got to run exclusively point.  Didn't like him playing off the ball for 2-3 minute stints in other games.  It was because of what I did see against Grambling and Ball State (if I recall correctly), that led me to believe he was gonna be a good prospect/PG.  He certainly hasn't failed me in either the Xavier game or now G'Town.

I agree with you, that Dawson may not have consistent games like the one he had against GTown.  Yet I also know Derrick has been far more prone to a game of 4ppg on 35% shooting, in 30+ minutes of play, than putting up 12-14 points and 5 assists.  Also know the team beat nobody of consequence with Derrick getting 30+ minutes.  Also know points per possession have never been worse in the Buzz era than they have been this year.  Also know every announcer and our head coach recognizes we were playing 4 on 5 with Derrick at point.

As for Ammo, Mason, etc., - I'd love to just see Derrick have a breakout game where he single handidly leads us to victory such as Ammo, Mason did - Derrick's had 3 years now to do so, and has yet to do it.

I don't understand this mentality. All he was doing by bringing up Ammo, Mason, etc. was to say that he hopes Dawson IS NOT like those guys. That the Gtown performance was not a flash-in-the-pan. It had nothing to do with Derrick.

Again, we all want MU to succeed and win regardless of who is playing.

[MerrittsMustache]

This is silly. Dawson took a skill pill? Or changed into his lucky underwear? John Dawson demonstrated he has been ready. He will have off days in the future, just as Ichiro sometimes goes 0-4, but he didn't blossom overnight like a cactus flower. He was given an opportunity and he proved he is capable of meeting the challenge against high major competition. His contributions were essential to the win. He made a difference for his teammates which made victory possible.

If Dawson has been ready then why was Buzz playing Derrick so much, playing Dawson off the ball and experimenting with Jamil running the point?

[NersEllenson]

SIGH...No one is arguing that Derrick's best role is as the starting PG. The argument is that, despite being best suited to be a back-up, Derrick is starting and seeing so many minutes because he's the best option. When Scott Tolzien was forced to start for the Packers, were the fans criticizing him for being a back-up quality player? No, because, despite being a back-up, he was the best option at that point. In the same respect, Derrick Wilson has been the best option as the starting PG for this team. Period. Yes, Dawson had a good game against Georgetown and hopefully he continues to play well for the remainder of the season. I'd have no problem with John Dawson becoming a very productive player for MU as a freshman. If he helps MU win games, I'm all for it! I'm just not ready to anoint him as the starting PG because he had one strong performance.

Fair enough...my argument all along basically has been that we were starting a back up caliber PG - and it would have been nice to see a little more of what our backup (Dawson) was capable of.

I genuinely believe Derrick got the minutes he did because: 1) He's a hard working, high character, veteran who is a good defender.  2) Because Buzz didn't want to sell Derrick out immediately, and wanted to give Derrick every chance in the world to show he could be the 30 minute + per game PG.  3) Buzz to a lesser extent felt Dawson wasn't ready to run the point comparably...but I'd put this as the 3rd reason for why Dawson didn't get more run earlier in the year.

[Coleman]

The acid test: Old Style or Pale Ale?

Intellectually, I know that a Pale Ale is better.

However, a cold Old Style triggers my memory the way an old lover's perfume stirs the heartstrings.

[keefe]

Intellectually, I know that a Pale Ale is better.

However, a cold Old Style triggers my memory the way an old lover's perfume stirs the heartstrings.

A man after my own heart. Dog Style is sheet but we did consume it like Ambrosia. Marquette Liquor sold a case of cans for undert $5.

[Archies Bat]

And I think this is where we started this fundamental disagreement.    

Two weeks and about a half dozen threads later, I believe this is the most accurate statement on the topic.

[keefe]

If Dawson has been ready then why was Buzz playing Derrick so much, playing Dawson off the ball and experimenting with Jamil running the point?

You're right. Injun Joe from Hannibal Mo.

[Lennys Tap]

See below.  Thanks BrandX.  Sadly, you are just too close minded and small ego'd that you can't acknowledge the position you've held regarding Derrick versus Dawson simply was wrong.  All I've said is Derrick is not a high major starting PG, and is best cut out to be a backup, 10-15 minute per game, guy who gives breather to starter, and in the process doesn't screw the game up.  And, that is a valuable role for a guy to play on a team, and the role Derrick is best suited for.

All you said is Derrick is not a high major starting PG, best cut out to be a back up, 10-15 minute per game guy? In maybe 100 posts and 10,000 words that's all you said? Really? Cause if that's all you said you would have gotten very little in the way of argument from me or many others here. All of us are aware of Derrick's shortcomings, we just aren't/weren't as convinced as you that John Dawson had proven he was the solution to the very obvious problem. But you said plenty more than that. You went after Derrick hard, and personally. Among other things you announced you were rooting against him, hoping for him to fail. You didn't even want him as a back up - you wanted him out of the rotation altogether. There's always room for disagreement on the relative value of our players. Maybe I put too much emphasis on defense, maybe you put too much emphasis on offense. Maybe I defer to Buzz too much, but just maybe he knows as much or even more than you do about running the team he sees every day. Those are the kind of things for civil discussions and even arguments. You're a knowledgeable and passionate Marquette fan. I've agreed with you more often than not. But when being "right" becomes so important that you're rooting against our own guys I just don't get it.

[BallBoy]

and that is shows that Dawson can actually make the shot unguarded.   So not only does he take it (unlike Wilson), he makes it (unlike Wilson).

I think Derrick Wilson is an awesome MU teammate and person, but for those who can not see the difference between what Dawson offers and what Wilson offers, you are just being plain stubborn (and I know, cause you played basketball once and I did not).

Do you not listen when the TV commentators say over and over "wilson is no offensive threat,"  "they are playing 4 on 5," "they are sagging off Wilson which is hurting Gardner"

That is actually Ners.  I don't believe you need extensive pickup basketball to see.  Many very good coaches never played the game.  Buzz for example. 

Where do you think the commentators get that?  From Buzz.  They do pregame interviews to get an understanding of the game. 

[CTWarrior]

Where do you think the commentators get that?  From Buzz.  They do pregame interviews to get an understanding of the game. 

They don't need to talk to Buzz to see that Derrick is not being guarded and that it is hurting Gardner.  They just can watch the game for a few minutes to see what is happening.  It is very obvious.

[brandx]

That is actually Ners.  I don't believe you need extensive pickup basketball to see.  Many very good coaches never played the game.  Buzz for example. 

Where do you think the commentators get that?  From Buzz.  They do pregame interviews to get an understanding of the game. 

I think you mean to say they never played at a high level - where they were skilled enough to actually be on a college roster.

[tower912]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=12621019

According to Dodds, at today's presser, Jamil told the story that buzz told Derrick to go back in the game, but Derrick told him no, because Dawson was on a roll.     Rohrshach interpretations to commence..........now. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=12621019

According to Dodds, at today's presser, Jamil told the story that buzz told Derrick to go back in the game, but Derrick told him no, because Dawson was on a roll.     Rohrshach interpretations to commence..........now. 

If true, says a lot about the young man's character and team first attitude. 

[jesmu84]

If true, says a lot about the young man's character and team first attitude. 

if things continue around here as normal... this good quality/decision will somehow be a detriment to the team and reason for Dawson to take over his role.

[madtownwarrior]

Great on Derrick to do that - that did not stop Dodd's, however, from the continual MU apologist and De Wilson apologist soap box...

If true, says a lot about the young man's character and team first attitude. 

[keefe]

Great on Derrick to do that - that did not stop Dodd's, however, from the continual MU apologist and De Wilson apologist soap box...

John Dodds' hard-hitting journalism. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty!

[The Lens]

Is Dodds...still calling...Aaron Rodgers...Randy?

[madtownwarrior]

i think so, but it's more like a butterfly flaps his wings in South Africa, what is the impact to Packer's mock draft in 2017...

Is Dodds...still calling...Aaron Rodgers...Randy?

[NersEllenson]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=12621019

According to Dodds, at today's presser, Jamil told the story that buzz told Derrick to go back in the game, but Derrick told him no, because Dawson was on a roll.     Rohrshach interpretations to commence..........now. 

It's great when a player is as selfless as what Derrick demonstrated....even though you'd think a coach as accomplished as Buzz could see the same thing, and have the same feel for the game as his player.  I recall this happening last year at some point with another player - perhaps Juan not going in a game because someone else was running good? 

[Silkk the Shaka]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=12621019

According to Dodds, at today's presser, Jamil told the story that buzz told Derrick to go back in the game, but Derrick told him no, because Dawson was on a roll.     Rohrshach interpretations to commence..........now.  

wow, hate to toot my own horn (jk I love it), but sounds eerily similar to what I said the other day about Derrick, bolded below:

This is what I think Derrick is perfect for. 8-12 minutes a night holding serve and harassing/tiring out the opponent's PG. No obligation/pressure to score or initiate offense. Just do what you're good at all out for short stints then back to the bench. I think he's more comfortable in that role as well. And he's such a smart & unselfish guy that I wouldn't be shocked in the least if he proposed this to Buzz himself.

[NersEllenson]

wow, hate to toot my own horn (jk I love it), but sounds eerily similar to what I said the other day about Derrick, bolded below:

Well done Jajuannaman!  Crazy.  You'd think Buzz could see the same thing as far as game flow..lineups that are working...and roll with them - that it wouldn't take a player declining minutes to see good results.  I recall being totally shocked in the San Diego State game when Burton went for about 8-10 points straight in the 2nd half, rallied us back into the game, and then Buzz benched him the rest of the game...got ride the hot hand, and don't care if it is a freshman.  That's the part where the whole - they'll get the minutes they earn - causes me to be skeptical - because there have been times a guy is rolling well, and Buzz yanks him anyway..