Tip of the hat to Ners

[Nevada233]

+1. Even as much as we struggled at PG, I think Dawson would have gotten eaten up playing extended minutes at the beginning of the season.

I agree..... throwing him out there to the wolves.... woulda got him shredded... Marquette has the chance to turn the ship around... and if he and STjr can play serviceably now.. it will help more than hurt marquette...

[tower912]

My point has never been that Derrick is an all world PG.   My point has always been that, until now, he was a better option than Dawson, because IMO Dawson wasn't ready for prime-time minutes.     Dawson had a good game against G-town, but not significantly better than the game Derrick had against Butler.   I would be thrilled if this means that Dawson is ready for big minutes every night.   I'm still not sold that he is, but if I am wrong, it will only help the team.   I truly hope that the G-town game was a harbinger and not an outlier.   I just refuse to bust on a kid who is doing the best job he can, is working his butt off, who is a good kid and a good teammate, who was the best option for a significant part of the season until now. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

My point has never been that Derrick is an all world PG.   My point has always been that, until now, he was a better option than Dawson, because IMO Dawson wasn't ready for prime-time minutes.     Dawson had a good game against G-town, but not significantly better than the game Derrick had against Butler.   I would be thrilled if this means that Dawson is ready for big minutes every night.   I'm still not sold that he is, but if I am wrong, it will only help the team.   I truly hope that the G-town game was a harbinger and not an outlier.   I just refuse to bust on a kid who is doing the best job he can, is working his butt off, who is a good kid and a good teammate, who was the best option for a significant part of the season until now. 

+1

One thing I will say that is clearly an advantage to Dawson is that he is at least willing to take an outside shot and, now that he has shown he can make them at a decent rate (one game, I know), other teams have to respect that and guard him on the perimeter which does work to open up the inside game. 

At the very least, if he can play 15-20 minutes a night and be productive that gives us a couple of different looks on offense which certainly can't hurt and gives Derrick a chance to get some rest.  No PG should be playing 40 minutes a night every game.   

[MerrittsMustache]

My point has never been that Derrick is an all world PG.   My point has always been that, until now, he was a better option than Dawson, because IMO Dawson wasn't ready for prime-time minutes.     Dawson had a good game against G-town, but not significantly better than the game Derrick had against Butler.   I would be thrilled if this means that Dawson is ready for big minutes every night.   I'm still not sold that he is, but if I am wrong, it will only help the team.   I truly hope that the G-town game was a harbinger and not an outlier.   I just refuse to bust on a kid who is doing the best job he can, is working his butt off, who is a good kid and a good teammate, who was the best option for a significant part of the season until now. 

Concise and spot-on. Well said, tower.

[brandx]

My point has never been that Derrick is an all world PG.   My point has always been that, until now, he was a better option than Dawson, because IMO Dawson wasn't ready for prime-time minutes.     Dawson had a good game against G-town, but not significantly better than the game Derrick had against Butler.   I would be thrilled if this means that Dawson is ready for big minutes every night.   I'm still not sold that he is, but if I am wrong, it will only help the team.   I truly hope that the G-town game was a harbinger and not an outlier.   I just refuse to bust on a kid who is doing the best job he can, is working his butt off, who is a good kid and a good teammate, who was the best option for a significant part of the season until now. 

Agree with all except the statement about Butler. If two guys have similar stats and one was unguarded while the other had to contend with the defense, I would posit that they are not similar.

The point isn't just how many points Dawson scored, but how many the team scored.

[Nevada233]

Agree with all except the statement about Butler. If two guys have similar stats and one was unguarded while the other had to contend with the defense, I would posit that they are not similar.

The point isn't just how many points Dawson scored, but how many the team scored.

Exactly plus Dawson has to stay grounded... you dont want him walking around thinking he's what Jeremy Lin was to the Knicks during his run..... His defense must continue to develop... But playing this and next year with or behind Derrick Wilson who is a model guy and good defender will only do Dawson wonders...

Imagine their practices they must go to war... which is great for us... moving forward

[BallBoy]

Agree with all except the statement about Butler. If two guys have similar stats and one was unguarded while the other had to contend with the defense, I would posit that they are not similar.

The point isn't just how many points Dawson scored, but how many the team scored.

I think saying that one was left unguarded while the other was heavily guarded is misleading.  When Dawson hit his OT three vs. Georgetown there was no one within 20 feet of him.  It was shown on two straight plays by Cracked Sidewalks.  Dawson was not "heavily" guarded.  What Dawson has shown is that he is not unwilling to shoot when he is unguarded while Wilson might not looked for someone else to shoot. 

If you even look at the "play" with with Gardner's baseline jumper neither Gardner nor Dawson were not heavily guarded.  Usually when a team is playing zone a player is not heavily guarded. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Agree with all except the statement about Butler. If two guys have similar stats and one was unguarded while the other had to contend with the defense, I would posit that they are not similar.

The point isn't just how many points Dawson scored, but how many the team scored.

To say that Derrick is "unguarded" is simply wrong (others have said this several times - not calling out just you, brandx). There's no doubt that defenses sag off of him on the perimeter, but it's not like he's being completely ignored and has free rein to drive whenever and where ever he wants. Defenses still account for him while understanding that he's not a threat from the outside.

In the same respect, one could also argue that it's a matter of many the opposition scored.


Derrick and Dawson both have their strengths and their limitations. They bring different things to the floor. Instead of ripping on Derrick for his short-comings, why can't people be excited that MU appears to have 2 PGs who can compliment each other?

[jesmu84]

Agree with all except the statement about Butler. If two guys have similar stats and one was unguarded while the other had to contend with the defense, I would posit that they are not similar.

The point isn't just how many points Dawson scored, but how many the team scored.

I would posit they're even more not similar d/t Gtown playing zone D on Dawson while Butler playing man on Derrick. It's not as though Dawson hit that OT 3 with a hand in his face...

They're both good. They both have pros/cons. They both have their role on the team. Just accept that. It doesn't have to be cutthroat. At the end of the day, I just want MU to have more points on the board than the opponents, regardless of how it's done. Sometimes it'll be on the D end, sometimes it'll be on the O end. Sometimes it'll be PG dependent, sometimes it'll be C dependent.

[NersEllenson]

To say that Derrick is "unguarded" is simply wrong (others have said this several times - not calling out just you, brandx). There's no doubt that defenses sag off of him on the perimeter, but it's not like he's being completely ignored and has free rein to drive whenever and where ever he wants. Defenses still account for him while understanding that he's not a threat from the outside.

In the same respect, one could also argue that it's a matter of many the opposition scored.


Derrick and Dawson both have their strengths and their limitations. They bring different things to the floor. Instead of ripping on Derrick for his short-comings, why can't people be excited that MU appears to have 2 PGs who can compliment each other?

You mean defenses aren't letting Derrick drive completely unguarded to the basket for an uncontested layup??  Of course they don't.  They don't guard Derrick on the perimeter.  Derrick could never do what Dawson did in overtime on the 2 point FG Dawson made - the defender flew at Dawson trying to close out fearing a 3 was going to get launched, and Dawson put the ball on the floor - two dribbles into a nice, clean, pull up 12 footer.  Derrick wouldn't get that kind of look.

I'd love to hear what you feel are Dawson's "limitations," particularly in that he's only 6 months into the program, and just took over and essentially won the team a game on the road against Georgetown in OT.  Would also like to know how you reconcile our points per possession being the worst they've ever been under a Buzz coached team - yet this is the most experienced Buzz team we've had...more returning players than at any other time in Buzz's tenure.

As far as ripping Derrick - that only happens when some fans make idiotic claims that things could be a lot worse if the PG spot were handed over to Dawson....and want to judge Dawson based on 2 minute stints of run, while they give Derrick a pass on repeated 30+ minute stints of action...and largely the same ineffective results.  

[jesmu84]

You mean defenses aren't letting Derrick drive completely unguarded to the basket for an uncontested layup??  Of course they don't.  They don't guard Derrick on the perimeter.  Derrick could never do what Dawson did in overtime on the 2 point FG Dawson made - the defender flew at Dawson trying to close out fearing a 3 was going to get launched, and Dawson put the ball on the floor - two dribbles into a nice, clean, pull up 12 footer.  Derrick wouldn't get that kind of look.

I'd love to hear what you feel are Dawson's "limitations," particularly in that he's only 6 months into the program, and just took over and essentially won the team a game on the road against Georgetown in OT.  Would also like to know how you reconcile our points per possession being the worst they've ever been under a Buzz coached team - yet this is the most experienced Buzz team we've had...more returning players than at any other time in Buzz's tenure.

As far as ripping Derrick - that only happens when some fans make idiotic claims that things could be a lot worse if the PG spot were handed over to Dawson....and want to judge Dawson based on 2 minute stints of run, while they give Derrick a pass on repeated 30+ minute stints of action...and largely the same ineffective results.  

1. I loved that move. Next level stuff right there. Derrick never would have done that.
2. Why does time in the program matter? He can still have limitations, regardless of how long he's been here. The time is irrelevant to his current limitations.
3. Bad PPP? Possibly d/t the fact that shooting averages are down across the board. Is some of that d/t PG play? Sure, perhaps. But, just remembering from Butler as an example, we've missed a lot of open, in-rhythm shots.
4. Things COULD HAVE been worse. They weren't against Gtown. But they could be worse in the next game. Or they could be better. "could" statements just mean we're comparing a known to an unknown. It's not an insult. We knew what we had in Derrick (average to below average). We (including you, as you point out judging from short stints shouldn't be done) didn't know what we had in Dawson. So, yes, things COULD HAVE and still COULD BE worse. But I guarantee no one on this board wants Dawson's results to be worse than Derrick.

[MerrittsMustache]

You mean defenses aren't letting Derrick drive completely unguarded to the basket for an uncontested layup??  Of course they don't.  They don't guard Derrick on the perimeter.  Derrick could never do what Dawson did in overtime on the 2 point FG Dawson made - the defender flew at Dawson trying to close out fearing a 3 was going to get launched, and Dawson put the ball on the floor - two dribbles into a nice, clean, pull up 12 footer.  Derrick wouldn't get that kind of look.

I'd love to hear what you feel are Dawson's "limitations," particularly in that he's only 6 months into the program, and just took over and essentially won the team a game on the road against Georgetown in OT.  Would also like to know how you reconcile our points per possession being the worst they've ever been under a Buzz coached team - yet this is the most experienced Buzz team we've had...more returning players than at any other time in Buzz's tenure.

As far as ripping Derrick - that only happens when some fans make idiotic claims that things could be a lot worse if the PG spot were handed over to Dawson....and want to judge Dawson based on 2 minute stints of run, while they give Derrick a pass on repeated 30+ minute stints of action...and largely the same ineffective results.  

You're right. Dawson has no limitations which is why he's considered by everyone to be the top player in all of college basketball and every time a MU player misses a shot it's because Derrick Wilson is so terrible! Why can't Buzz see that?!

Seriously, Ners, you're far too close-minded and oblivious to continue debating with. It's pointless to try to rationalize with someone as irrational (and obnoxious) as you are on this topic.

[brandx]

You're right. Dawson has no limitations which is why he's considered by everyone to be the top player in all of college basketball and every time a MU player misses a shot it's because Derrick Wilson is so terrible! Why can't Buzz see that?!

Seriously, Ners, you're far too close-minded and oblivious to continue debating with. It's pointless to try to rationalize with someone as irrational (and obnoxious) as you are on this topic.

So the best way to argue with Ners is to make a preposterous statement in your 1st paragraph and then proceed to call HIM out in the next?

Ners (nor anyone else) NEVER said Dawson had no limitations.
Ners  (nor anyone else) NEVER said Dawson was the top player in college basketball.
Ners (nor anyone else) NEVER said every missed shot was dW's fault.

You have made some good points in some of your posts, but if you want to argue with Ners, do it on the basis of what he said. Don't make up a storyline and argue against your own silly statements.

[MerrittsMustache]

So the best way to argue with Ners is to make a preposterous statement in your 1st paragraph and then proceed to call HIM out in the next?

Ners (nor anyone else) NEVER said Dawson had no limitations.
Ners  (nor anyone else) NEVER said Dawson was the top player in college basketball.
Ners (nor anyone else) NEVER said every missed shot was dW's fault.

You have made some good points in some of your posts, but if you want to argue with Ners, do it on the basis of what he said. Don't make up a storyline and argue against your own silly statements.

Clearly you're unfamiliar with the concept of hyperbole and haven't been paying attention to Ners dismissing any negatives against Dawson because of small sample size but then using those same small sample sizes to defend his argument.

[brandx]

Clearly you're unfamiliar with the concept of hyperbole and haven't been paying attention to Ners dismissing any negatives against Dawson because of small sample size but then using those same small sample sizes to defend his argument.

Like Ners, I think Dawson should be playing more. But yes, Ners goes to far the other way.

I think a more realistic view that we all can share is that Derrick is challenged offensively and it affects the way the team plays at that end of the floor.

Derrick is a solid defensive player and works very hard when he's on the floor. He just does not have Division 1 offensive skills.

[madtownwarrior]

and that is shows that Dawson can actually make the shot unguarded.   So not only does he take it (unlike Wilson), he makes it (unlike Wilson).

I think Derrick Wilson is an awesome MU teammate and person, but for those who can not see the difference between what Dawson offers and what Wilson offers, you are just being plain stubborn (and I know, cause you played basketball once and I did not).

Do you not listen when the TV commentators say over and over "wilson is no offensive threat,"  "they are playing 4 on 5," "they are sagging off Wilson which is hurting Gardner"

I think saying that one was left unguarded while the other was heavily guarded is misleading.  When Dawson hit his OT three vs. Georgetown there was no one within 20 feet of him.  It was shown on two straight plays by Cracked Sidewalks.  Dawson was not "heavily" guarded.  What Dawson has shown is that he is not unwilling to shoot when he is unguarded while Wilson might not looked for someone else to shoot.  

If you even look at the "play" with with Gardner's baseline jumper neither Gardner nor Dawson were not heavily guarded.  Usually when a team is playing zone a player is not heavily guarded.  

[MerrittsMustache]

Like Ners, I think Dawson should be playing more. But yes, Ners goes to far the other way.

I think a more realistic view that we all can share is that Derrick is challenged offensively and it affects the way the team plays at that end of the floor.

Derrick is a solid defensive player and works very hard when he's on the floor. He just does not have Division 1 offensive skills.

Well put. I agree with what you said, although I do feel that some on here place too much blame on Derrick for the team's offensive struggles. My argument all along has been that Dawson has talent but isn't ready and that Derrick is the best PG on the roster, limitations and all. Dawson had a really nice game against Georgetown and I hope he keeps it up. I'd be absolutely thrilled if Dawson could play 20+ productive minutes a game and MU could start winning more often, but the notion that Buzz should throw him out there for 30 minutes because "it can't get worse" is foolish. Above all (and most obviously), I trust Buzz and the coaching staff's opinion of players more than I trust the opinions of anyone on here. When Buzz thinks Dawson is ready, he'll start getting significant PT.

[keefe]

and that is shows that Dawson can actually make the shot unguarded.   So not only does he take it (unlike Wilson), he makes it (unlike Wilson).

I think Derrick Wilson is an awesome MU teammate and person, but for those who can not see the difference between what Dawson offers and what Wilson offers, you are just being plain stubborn (and I know, cause you played basketball once and I did not).

Do you not listen when the TV commentators say over and over "wilson is no offensive threat,"  "they are playing 4 on 5," "they are sagging off Wilson which is hurting Gardner"

Madtown. Please. What do those color analysts know about basketball? They only coached Marquette or other high Div I schools. Hell, some even had to lower themselves and coach in the NBA. Others, sadly, were nothing more than college scholarship athletes with subsequent NBA careers.

Compare that with the platinum basketball resume of the Scooper. Some of Derrick's staunchest supporters played CYO and high school hoops. One even coaches 10 year old girls rec basketball.

Kevin O'Neill says Derrick Wilson is "no offensive threat" or "Marquette is playing 4 on 5" means he is misinformed. Kevon O'Neill keeps repeating those statements means he has some sort of twisted, malicious agenda.

[jesmu84]

You have made some good points in some of your posts, but if you want to argue with Ners, do it on the basis of what he said. Don't make up a storyline and argue against your own silly statements.

I tried.

[GooooMarquette]

Madtown. Please. What do those color analysts know about basketball? They only coached Marquette or other high Div I schools. Hell, some even had to lower themselves and coach in the NBA. Others, sadly, were nothing more than college scholarship athletes with subsequent NBA careers.

Compare that with the platinum basketball resume of the Scooper. Some of Derrick's staunchest supporters played CYO and high school hoops. One even coaches 10 year old girls rec basketball.

Kevin O'Neill says Derrick Wilson is "no offensive threat" or "Marquette is playing 4 on 5" means he is misinformed. Kevon O'Neill keeps repeating those statements means he has some sort of twisted, malicious agenda.

I'm pretty sure the guy who has been making the decision to play Derrick 30 mpg is a high Division I coach too....

[keefe]

My point has always been that, until now, he was a better option than Dawson, because IMO Dawson wasn't ready for prime-time minutes.   

This is silly. Dawson took a skill pill? Or changed into his lucky underwear? John Dawson demonstrated he has been ready. He will have off days in the future, just as Ichiro sometimes goes 0-4, but he didn't blossom overnight like a cactus flower. He was given an opportunity and he proved he is capable of meeting the challenge against high major competition. His contributions were essential to the win. He made a difference for his teammates which made victory possible.

[Coleman]

Madtown. Please. What do those color analysts know about basketball? They only coached Marquette or other high Div I schools. Hell, some even had to lower themselves and coach in the NBA. Others, sadly, were nothing more than college scholarship athletes with subsequent NBA careers.

Compare that with the platinum basketball resume of the Scooper. Some of Derrick's staunchest supporters played CYO and high school hoops. One even coaches 10 year old girls rec basketball.

Kevin O'Neill says Derrick Wilson is "no offensive threat" or "Marquette is playing 4 on 5" means he is misinformed. Kevon O'Neill keeps repeating those statements means he has some sort of twisted, malicious agenda.

My resume also includes video game enthusiast, expert gameday guacamole chef, pre-game kegs and eggs party host, loud drunk Bradley Center screamer, and halftime beer consumer.

[keefe]

I'm pretty sure the guy who has been making the decision to play Derrick 30 mpg is a high Division I coach too....

[keefe]

halftime beer consumer.

The acid test: Old Style or Pale Ale?

[tower912]

One of Buzz's replies on his radio show was about Dawson's work ethic, how he shows up every day, how he wants to be coached, how he is told to do something and he does it.   I watched him in the cupcake games and did not like what I saw from him running the point.   Against Georgetown, he looked ready.   So, yes, I believe he has improved this season.   I think he is better than he was 4-6 weeks ago.   I do not think he was ready to face Aaron Craft in November.   I think he is better now, though still not ready to face Craft.  I also am not ready to just pencil him in for performances like he had against Georgetown.   I remember Amo in the Alaskan shootout.   I remember Mason against Louisville.   I remember Reggie Smith starting over Junior.    I think he is better than he was, that he has improved. I hope it continues.   I think Derrick should have been the starter all along and should continue to be.    These are not incompatible thoughts.