Tip of the hat to Ners

[brandx]

To call Dawson a bystander during that run is to completely discount his value on the court even if he isn't shooting. His man guards him. The others are no longer double teamed instantly and the lane is no longer clogged. His presence on the court alone opened things up for everyone else on offense.

And I don't hate Derrick! I like having a guy like him on the team. But he's well suited to a change of pace/give the main PG a breather type of role. I think he's really good at that, and not only doesn't hurt the team but helps it in that role. He's currently being asked to do too much and is not put in a position to thrive (due to circumstance). Reduced minutes will benefit Derrick & the team. Hopefully Dawson is ready to step into a larger role full time. In my opinion, it is the only chance we have at the tournament.

+1

[Silkk the Shaka]

Creighton can be an offensive juggernaut, but it's not a given. They just shot 4-19 on 3s in a loss to Providence and earlier this season they scored 53 points against GW. Creighton will be interesting come the NCAA Tournament. They're the type of team that could shoot their way into the Final Four or shoot there way out of the 1st Round.

Wow, I would not argue otherwise. Someone accused me of saying our offense with Dawson looked better than Creighton's. I didn't say that, as Creighton's offense when on can look like the best in the country and ours obviously has not looked that good with Dawson or Wilson. I was simply stating that our own offense, in conference season, has looked the best with Dawson getting extended minutes @Xavier and @GTown. That's it. This is not an argument I started or disagree with either of you on.

[Big Papi]

Why does it have to be Team Derrick or Team John around here?  And if you're for one, than why do you have to be against the other?  That is what this board has become around here.  

I am a Marquette fan.  
I root for everyone on the team so I am Team Marquette.
I realize that both players have their strengths and weaknesses.
I realize that NO ONE on this board is a collegiate coach.
I realize that NO ONE on this board sees these kids play and practice more than Buzz and the coaching staff.
I realize that everything is not absolute and in a vacuum so to make statements like that is ridiculous.

I like the potential that I see out of Dawson.  
Dawson had some good moments yesterday and some bad moments.
One game does not a season make.  Just ask Ryan Amoroso.
The one thing I will take away from last night's game is that Dawson has moxie.  He will take a clutch shot.
What Dawson was as a player 30 days ago, is not what he is now and is not what he will be 30 days from now.
To claim that his game yesterday vindicates the "Team John backers" that he should have been playing major minutes all year is stupid.
There is an adjustment period for all newcomers into this program.  
I think the game is slowing down for him and consequently he is starting to make an impact.  
I expect Dawson to have more game time but I doubt he plays substantial minutes from here on out but you never know.
Hopefully he builds on last night and helps this team win a lot.

I like what I see out of Derrick.
He has some real nice attributes that Dawson does not possess at this point in time.
Derrick can't shoot and probably shouldn't play more than 15 minutes a game this year.
Unfortunately he has had to play major minutes because he has been the best overall option.
I have seen improvement out of Derrick from last year to this year and from the beginning of the year until now.

I am going to trust a collegiate coach who has had a lot of success over the last few years and say that he will play the players he feels will win him games as ultimately his job is based off of wins/losses.

We see 40 minutes of game action but Buzz and staff not only coach 40 minutes of that action but they dissect the game tape of that action in addition to countless hours of practice.  

Buzz is also the one who knows what he wants from his players when they are on the court.  We as fans can only make educated guess as to what he wants from them.  So if he wants a specific opponent to be played a specific way and they spend a large amount of time discussing that game plan....I am going to guess he is going play players who follow that game plan designed to win the game.  None of us know what that game plan is but it is safe to say that following the game plan is extremely important because Buzz has mentioned it countless times.    

It hasn't been a fun year for fans, for Buzz or the players.  
This year's team is a difficult jigsaw puzzle to solve.  Lots of talent but just not meshing.
To say that the offense runs much smoother with Dawson in the game, might be true but that is only a part of the game.  Defense is another part and executing the game plan is yet another part of the puzzle.  

So its great that Dawson put up points last night, made some clutch shots in OT and made the offense look better.  Any average fan can see that but how many bad shots did he put up yesterday?  Did he play to the game plan?  Did he give up more points than he made or that his teammates made.  And that list can go on and on.  Yesterday, he had a good game and received extended minutes and I am extremely happy that we won but that doesn't vindicate anyone about anything.  He could just as easily SUCK IT the next game and end up getting minimal minutes.  I hope he continues to progress rapidly and earns those extra minutes because he has the potential to bring a lot of success to the team but at the end of the day, I am not Team Derrick or Team John but Team Marquette.

[Earl Tatum]

Great Post Mufanatic

[GooooMarquette]

Yes, great post mufanatic.

[jesmu84]

Why does it have to be Team Derrick or Team John around here?  And if you're for one, than why do you have to be against the other?  That is what this board has become around here.  

I am a Marquette fan.  
I root for everyone on the team so I am Team Marquette.
I realize that both players have their strengths and weaknesses.
I realize that NO ONE on this board is a collegiate coach.
I realize that NO ONE on this board sees these kids play and practice more than Buzz and the coaching staff.
I realize that everything is not absolute and in a vacuum so to make statements like that is ridiculous.

I like the potential that I see out of Dawson.  
Dawson had some good moments yesterday and some bad moments.
One game does not a season make.  Just ask Ryan Amoroso.
The one thing I will take away from last night's game is that Dawson has moxie.  He will take a clutch shot.
What Dawson was as a player 30 days ago, is not what he is now and is not what he will be 30 days from now.
To claim that his game yesterday vindicates the "Team John backers" that he should have been playing major minutes all year is stupid.
There is an adjustment period for all newcomers into this program.  
I think the game is slowing down for him and consequently he is starting to make an impact.  
I expect Dawson to have more game time but I doubt he plays substantial minutes from here on out but you never know.
Hopefully he builds on last night and helps this team win a lot.

I like what I see out of Derrick.
He has some real nice attributes that Dawson does not possess at this point in time.
Derrick can't shoot and probably shouldn't play more than 15 minutes a game this year.
Unfortunately he has had to play major minutes because he has been the best overall option.
I have seen improvement out of Derrick from last year to this year and from the beginning of the year until now.

I am going to trust a collegiate coach who has had a lot of success over the last few years and say that he will play the players he feels will win him games as ultimately his job is based off of wins/losses.

We see 40 minutes of game action but Buzz and staff not only coach 40 minutes of that action but they dissect the game tape of that action in addition to countless hours of practice.  

Buzz is also the one who knows what he wants from his players when they are on the court.  We as fans can only make educated guess as to what he wants from them.  So if he wants a specific opponent to be played a specific way and they spend a large amount of time discussing that game plan....I am going to guess he is going play players who follow that game plan designed to win the game.  None of us know what that game plan is but it is safe to say that following the game plan is extremely important because Buzz has mentioned it countless times.    

It hasn't been a fun year for fans, for Buzz or the players.  
This year's team is a difficult jigsaw puzzle to solve.  Lots of talent but just not meshing.
To say that the offense runs much smoother with Dawson in the game, might be true but that is only a part of the game.  Defense is another part and executing the game plan is yet another part of the puzzle.  

So its great that Dawson put up points last night, made some clutch shots in OT and made the offense look better.  Any average fan can see that but how many bad shots did he put up yesterday?  Did he play to the game plan?  Did he give up more points than he made or that his teammates made.  And that list can go on and on.  Yesterday, he had a good game and received extended minutes and I am extremely happy that we won but that doesn't vindicate anyone about anything.  He could just as easily SUCK IT the next game and end up getting minimal minutes.  I hope he continues to progress rapidly and earns those extra minutes because he has the potential to bring a lot of success to the team but at the end of the day, I am not Team Derrick or Team John but Team Marquette.

Excellent, level-headed post

[Lennys Tap]

To call Dawson a bystander during that run is to completely discount his value on the court even if he isn't shooting. His man guards him. The others are no longer double teamed instantly and the lane is no longer clogged. His presence on the court alone opened things up for everyone else on offense.

And I don't hate Derrick! I like having a guy like him on the team. But he's well suited to a change of pace/give the main PG a breather type of role. I think he's really good at that, and not only doesn't hurt the team but helps it in that role. He's currently being asked to do too much and is not put in a position to thrive (due to circumstance). Reduced minutes will benefit Derrick & the team. Hopefully Dawson is ready to step into a larger role full time. In my opinion, it is the only chance we have at the tournament.

Bystander may not be the best choice of words - my point was that the comeback that gave John the opportunity to be a hero in OT (and he was) was fueled by Ox, Jamil and Davante, not him.

[MerrittsMustache]

Excellent, level-headed post

Agreed. Primarily because it re-states what several of the so-called "Team Derrick" posters have been saying for a while now.

[PGsHeroes32]

Derrick and Jake playing together has gotten MU out in front in the last two games.

Regardless, I have decided to just let it play out and see what happens.  Nothing can be said in this debate that hasn't been said 100 times.

This is more a result of our leading scorer, starting like most teams do.

[keefe]

This is where I disagreed with you earlier. 100 percent!! If anyone is one of the best players on the floor, I think maybe the coach on the other team would say "Hey, let's guard that guy".

It should be a given that you are not one of the best players when the other team uses you to help themselves win (using your man to double-team elsewhere on basically every possession).

Well said, x. Dawson on the floor made the defense play honest. It wasn't just in our ability to work the ball down low but in the crispness of ball movement. It was amazingly similar to Buzz' offenses in previous seasons.

Buzz deserves credit, too. It was Goose who originally cited BW's obsessive-compulsive personality as being a major contributor in his continuing to employ empirically evident failed formula. People who say last night's rotation was because of Wilson's foul trouble insult both Buzz and Dawson. Buzz didn't play Dawson because Wilson was in foul trouble; Dawson played because the Wilson Experiment is over.

[NersEllenson]

Why does it have to be Team Derrick or Team John around here?  And if you're for one, than why do you have to be against the other?  That is what this board has become around here.  

I am a Marquette fan.  
I root for everyone on the team so I am Team Marquette.
I realize that both players have their strengths and weaknesses.
I realize that NO ONE on this board is a collegiate coach.
I realize that NO ONE on this board sees these kids play and practice more than Buzz and the coaching staff.
I realize that everything is not absolute and in a vacuum so to make statements like that is ridiculous.

I like the potential that I see out of Dawson.  
Dawson had some good moments yesterday and some bad moments.
One game does not a season make.  Just ask Ryan Amoroso.
The one thing I will take away from last night's game is that Dawson has moxie.  He will take a clutch shot.
What Dawson was as a player 30 days ago, is not what he is now and is not what he will be 30 days from now.
To claim that his game yesterday vindicates the "Team John backers" that he should have been playing major minutes all year is stupid.
There is an adjustment period for all newcomers into this program.  
I think the game is slowing down for him and consequently he is starting to make an impact.  
I expect Dawson to have more game time but I doubt he plays substantial minutes from here on out but you never know.
Hopefully he builds on last night and helps this team win a lot.

I like what I see out of Derrick.
He has some real nice attributes that Dawson does not possess at this point in time.
Derrick can't shoot and probably shouldn't play more than 15 minutes a game this year.
Unfortunately he has had to play major minutes because he has been the best overall option.
I have seen improvement out of Derrick from last year to this year and from the beginning of the year until now.

I am going to trust a collegiate coach who has had a lot of success over the last few years and say that he will play the players he feels will win him games as ultimately his job is based off of wins/losses.

We see 40 minutes of game action but Buzz and staff not only coach 40 minutes of that action but they dissect the game tape of that action in addition to countless hours of practice.  

Buzz is also the one who knows what he wants from his players when they are on the court.  We as fans can only make educated guess as to what he wants from them.  So if he wants a specific opponent to be played a specific way and they spend a large amount of time discussing that game plan....I am going to guess he is going play players who follow that game plan designed to win the game.  None of us know what that game plan is but it is safe to say that following the game plan is extremely important because Buzz has mentioned it countless times.    

It hasn't been a fun year for fans, for Buzz or the players.  
This year's team is a difficult jigsaw puzzle to solve.  Lots of talent but just not meshing.
To say that the offense runs much smoother with Dawson in the game, might be true but that is only a part of the game.  Defense is another part and executing the game plan is yet another part of the puzzle.  

So its great that Dawson put up points last night, made some clutch shots in OT and made the offense look better.  Any average fan can see that but how many bad shots did he put up yesterday?  Did he play to the game plan?  Did he give up more points than he made or that his teammates made.  And that list can go on and on.  Yesterday, he had a good game and received extended minutes and I am extremely happy that we won but that doesn't vindicate anyone about anything.  He could just as easily SUCK IT the next game and end up getting minimal minutes.  I hope he continues to progress rapidly and earns those extra minutes because he has the potential to bring a lot of success to the team but at the end of the day, I am not Team Derrick or Team John but Team Marquette.

Unfortunately, in the process of trying to make the case for John, the consequence was pointing out the limitations and challenges the team was facing with Derrick getting max minutes.  When every commentator comments how the opposition doesn't guard your PG, and your own head coach says we are playing 4 on 5 offensively - it's hard to just let comments slide suggesting that the team "lacks leadership," "Mayo is a cancer," "Jamil isn't tough," "Gardner has turned into a punk and regressed."

Playing 4 on 5 makes every other guy on the court's job that much harder to execute and be successful.  Nothing was going to change in our season/results - if a radical change wasn't made.  Highly doubt last nights performance was a fluke for Dawson, or the team - and if he gets 25+ minutes moving forward you'll see him continue to produce, and the team continue to look much better.

Jamil, Jake, Davante's jobs all just got a lot easier last night.

[MerrittsMustache]

Well said, x. Dawson on the floor made the defense play honest. It wasn't just in our ability to work the ball down low but in the crispness of ball movement. It was amazingly similar to Buzz' offenses in previous seasons.

Buzz deserves credit, too. It was Goose who originally cited BW's obsessive-compulsive personality as being a major contributor in his continuing to employ empirically evident failed formula. People who say last night's rotation was because of Wilson's foul trouble insult both Buzz and Dawson. Buzz didn't play Dawson because Wilson was in foul trouble; Dawson played because the Wilson Experiment is over.

Really? You don't think it had anything to do with Gtown playing a zone? Do you expect Dawson to start and see 30+ minutes on Saturday?

[NersEllenson]

Agreed. Primarily because it re-states what several of the so-called "Team Derrick" posters have been saying for a while now.

Yet it failed to state as many of the Team Derrick posters have stated - "That things could get much worse, with Dawson running the Point."  Seen that posted probably 50+ times here by you and the handful of other Pro Derrick posters.

Sure hasn't looked worse against Xavier and Georgetown - but you guys can keep grasping for straws citing the 4 minute stints Dawson was given against Seton Hall and Butler - and let's face it - we lost to Butler, and damn near lost to Seton Hall at home - so the team certainly wasn't performing well.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and completely ignore that the team looked so much better and crisp offensively than they have all year last night - that's fine.

[NersEllenson]

Really? You don't think it had anything to do with Gtown playing a zone? Do you expect Dawson to start and see 30+ minutes on Saturday?

Not sure if Dawson will start - probably won't - but he should get 25-30 minutes a game.  As for Dawson getting the time he got against GTown - highly doubt it was because we were playing against a zone for part of the game - Buzz saw the difference, knows the difference, and has finally conceded that he cannot continue to reward Derrick's effort and character with blind loyalty.

[NavinRJohnson]

Why does it have to be Team Derrick or Team John around here?  And if you're for one, than why do you have to be against the other?

Absolutely correct. Have been trying to make this point a few times recently...isnt necessarily going to be one or the other. Going to have to be both.

[MerrittsMustache]

Not sure if Dawson will start - probably won't - but he should get 25-30 minutes a game.  As for Dawson getting the time he got against GTown - highly doubt it was because we were playing against a zone for part of the game - Buzz saw the difference, knows the difference, and has finally conceded that he cannot continue to reward Derrick's effort and character with blind loyalty.

What are you willing to wager than Dawson will average fewer than 27.5 minutes per game (avg of 25-30) the rest of the way?

[Dawson Rental]

Ners and Nevada and others are vindicated. A legitimate offensive threat at the 1 forced the game open. Notice how certain experts are conspicuous by their absence?

Again, congrats to those who advocated change that was necessary. And Buzz has proven that his OCD tendencies can be overcome.

I know that you are fond of WWII analogies, so here's one for you.  By your same logic, the success of the June 6th D-Day landings proved that Eisenhower was a fool for calling off the original date of June 5th due to bad weather.  Few would agree with that assessment.  I'm not sure that I agree with this one regarding Dawson, as well.

Dawson had a nice game and was a key to beating Georgetown.  I just don't jump to the conclusion that the John Dawson that we saw yesterday must have been the John Dawson that would have showed up for the very first game.  Maybe Buzz has OCD, then again maybe he knows when a player is ready for what the team needs him to do.  Still kudos to Ners and Nevada for being the first (on MUScoop, since obviously Buzz must have seen those qualities first to have offered a player unranked by many recruiting services-Equalizer would say none) to see the qualities Dawson possessed.

/Maybe Buzz is due some credit for developing John's game to the point that he could have the impact that he had yesterday.

/Maybe Ners was still over optimistic in his early assessments even given what we saw yesterday.

[keefe]

Really? You don't think it had anything to do with Gtown playing a zone? Do you expect Dawson to start and see 30+ minutes on Saturday?

Going forward I believe we will see Dawson playing the majority of minutes at the 1 with Wilson reverting to his more natural role of providing quality minutes in relief. Doesn't matter who starts under Brent Williams. He is about situational rotations. Gardner, Jamil, and Crowder know that.

Yes, Georgetown played a zone and Wilson proved ineffective against it. He has also proven ineffective against every other defense thrown against MU this season by legitimate competition.

Please tell me when Wilson has broken down a defense against legitimate competition this season?

[MerrittsMustache]

Yet it failed to state as many of the Team Derrick posters have stated - "That things could get much worse, with Dawson running the Point."  Seen that posted probably 50+ times here by you and the handful of other Pro Derrick posters.

Sure hasn't looked worse against Xavier and Georgetown - but you guys can keep grasping for straws citing the 4 minute stints Dawson was given against Seton Hall and Butler - and let's face it - we lost to Butler, and damn near lost to Seton Hall at home - so the team certainly wasn't performing well.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and completely ignore that the team looked so much better and crisp offensively than they have all year last night - that's fine.

It's the old chicken-or-egg argument: Does Dawson play better when he gets more minutes or does he get more minutes when he plays well? You will close-mindedly only accept the former while completing discounting that the latter could even be a possibility.

[MerrittsMustache]

Going forward I believe we will see Dawson playing the majority of minutes at the 1 with Wilson reverting to his more natural role of providing quality minutes in relief. Doesn't matter who starts under Brent Williams. He is about situational rotations. Gardner, Jamil, and Crowder know that.

Yes, Georgetown played a zone and Wilson proved ineffective against it. He has also proven ineffective against every other defense thrown against MU this season by legitimate competition.

Please tell me when Wilson has broken down a defense against legitimate competition this season?

Arizona State: 14 points (5-9 shooting), 7 assists, 0 TO

[keefe]

I know that you are fond of WWII analogies, so here's one for you.  By your same logic, the success of the June 6th D-Day landings proved that Eisenhower was a fool for calling off the original date of June 5th due to bad weather.  Few would agree with that assessment.  I'm not sure that I agree with this one regarding Dawson, as well.

Dawson had a nice game and was a key to beating Georgetown.  I just don't jump to the conclusion that the John Dawson that we saw yesterday must have been the John Dawson that would have showed up for the very first game.  Maybe Buzz has OCD, then again maybe he knows when a player is ready for what the team needs him to do.  Still kudos to Ners and Nevada for being the first (on MUScoop, since obviously Buzz must have seen those qualities first to have offered a player unranked by many recruiting services-Equalizer would say none) to see the qualities Dawson possessed.

/Maybe Buzz is due some credit for developing John's game to the point that he could have the impact that he had yesterday.

The problem with your analogy is that Overlord was designed for 3 day windows beginning in May 1944 when the US-UK-Canada had the requisite correlation of forces to attempt the cross-Channel invasion of Fortress Europa. So going on June 5-7 was the plan.

[keefe]

Arizona State: 14 points (5-9 shooting), 7 assists, 0 TO

I didn't ask you for his individual game statistics.

We lost to ASU. Why?

[MerrittsMustache]

I didn't ask you for his individual game statistics.

We lost to ASU. Why?

Because of Derrick Wilson obviously! If Dawson had played, MU wins by 30!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have changed my tune to Dawson and Derrick should get equal time. They should be utilized just like Ox and Otule were in previous seasons. When you need offense, it's Dawson. When you need defense, it's Ox.

Here is why. Looking at the two, I still think Derrick is the better overall PG RIGHT NOW. However, he has a fatal flaw that just simply can't be overcome. His lack of three point shooting makes everyone else on the team worse.

I wasn't ready before because it wasn't like Dawson had established him as a scoring threat either. But a 2-4 3P 12 point performance will get coaches' attention.

Let's not ring in Daw-sanity yet. It was just one game. Dawson could come out on Saturday and get shut down. But the kid should be getting somewhere between 15-25 minutes a game

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I didn't ask you for his individual game statistics.

We lost to ASU. Why?

Because Jahii Carson is an NBA caliber point guard right now and they have a Canadian Tree named Jordan Bachynski. We (and that includes Derrick) played well that night but they played better