Optimism and the Turnraound

[keefe]

So Mayo Smith played Oyler at shortstop for the entire season in spite of a .135 batting average. And Al McGuire started Bill Neary for an entire season while top 5 in the country guy Bernard Toone gathered splinters. If the Tigers don't make it to the WS I guess Mayo Smith is an idiot. And if Marquette doesn't make the tournament in 77 (we were the last team in) ditto for Al. Are you advocating sticking with Derrick for the entire season and then giving more time to John Dawson once we make the Final 4 - sounds like that's what the great Mayo Smith or Al would have done.

Every situation is unique. Oyler's defense was crucial over the long season and helped the Tiger's stellar pitching dominate the AL. But in a 7 game series, where both teams had Hall of Fame caliber pitching staffs, Mayo knew that Stanley's bat was far more important than Oyler's glove and he was willing to take a monumental risk. Remember that Stanley was one of baseball's best CF's, 5 Gold Gloves, and asking him to play out of position in the most important infield spot was questioned by the exerts and pundits. In the end, when the Tigers won largely due to the offensive power generated by the 3 outfielders, Smith's genius was hailed by all. Success has many mothers while failure is usually an orphan.

The Neary/Toone case is a red herring but the reality is that Al's legacy is hugely different if his final chapter at MU ended with us in the NIT. And Mayo Smith's gamble has gone down as one of the best coaching moves in the 20th Century.

Playing Oyler during the regular season contributed to winning the pennant. Marquette's current mix is not winning the pennant. And therein lies the difference.



 

[CTWarrior]

Same thoughts here. Close calls the next three to go down to 2-5, then we start winning the close call games down the stretch to go 11-7. Win a couple in the BET and we're in. Backs to the wall! TBW redux!

If we go 11-7 in the Big East plus win 2 in the BET (losing in the final), that would make us 21-13.  I don't think a 21-13 team in this Big East with our non-con profile makes the tourney.  I think we need to right the ship now and take at least one of the next three.  I think we can, and two isn't out of the question.

[copious1218]

Personally, I think we'll win @ Butler and @ G'Town.

[jsglow]

If we go 11-7 in the Big East plus win 2 in the BET (losing in the final), that would make us 21-13.  I don't think a 21-13 team in this Big East with our non-con profile makes the tourney.  I think we need to right the ship now and take at least one of the next three.  I think we can, and two isn't out of the question.

Really CT?  While I'd be far from comfortable I think that just might sneak us in.  Others I'm sure can point to conference RPI but our non-con schedule was brutal.  Making it to the conference final will likely mean defeating either Creighton or Nova in NYC.

I'd agree that 2-1 over the next three is a reach but would represent a significant step forward.  It all starts Saturday in Indy. 

[wardle2wade]

If we go 11-7 in the Big East plus win 2 in the BET (losing in the final), that would make us 21-13.  I don't think a 21-13 team in this Big East with our non-con profile makes the tourney.  I think we need to right the ship now and take at least one of the next three.  I think we can, and two isn't out of the question.

Judging by the conference ratings, this year's Big East isn't as weak as everyone expected it to be... thus I don't think it's gonna be as big a detriment as we think.  

With what you described (11-7 + 2 BET wins, 21-13), I'm assuming there's also a couple Nova/Creighton wins in there?  Assuming yes (and we also avoid the "bad loss"), MU would have a decent shot to make the tourney.  Last year, Nova got a #9 at 20-13... Illinois was #7 at 22-12... Cal was #11 at 20-11... Minn was #10 at 20-12.  Considering the last at-larges are usually #12 seeds, I'd say we still have a shot given those circumstances.

[CTWarrior]

Really CT?  While I'd be far from comfortable I think that just might sneak us in.  Others I'm sure can point to conference RPI but our non-con schedule was brutal.  Making it to the conference final will likely mean defeating either Creighton or Nova in NYC.

I'd agree that 2-1 over the next three is a reach but would represent a significant step forward.  It all starts Saturday in Indy. 

We'd be on the bubble for sure, and certainly not definitely out.  But I think we'd most likely be out in that scenario.  I think 23 is the magic number to be safely in, 22 is the number for likely in, and 21 is on the bubble and hope for other things to break right and 20 or less means a lot of things have to break right or we have to win the BET.  Really just a guess at this point though.  So many games yet to be played by so many teams.

[humanlung]

Call me crazy but a trip to the NIT this year might alert the underclassmen that the attitude, heart and work ethic of certain upperclassmen isn't what you want to mimic. 

[GooooMarquette]

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

True, but regardless of the outcome of this season, it would be way too premature to decide which size of the line Buzz is on. 

Through five seasons, Buzz has actually had more post-season success than Al did. And Al didn't get us further than the Elite Eight until his 10th season.  Buzz could fail mightily this season...and still would have time (in my book) to show that he had the same kind of genius as Al....

[Badgerhater]

Call me crazy but a trip to the NIT this year might alert the underclassmen that the attitude, heart and work ethic of certain upperclassmen isn't what you want to mimic.  

Never wish for a trip to the NIT.  I would rather be one and done in the tournament than win the NIT.  The underclassmen can learn the same thing by the team not making it to the second weekend.

[Windyplayer]

Never wish for a trip to the NIT.  I would rather be one and done in the tournament than win the NIT.

Anybody that said otherwise would literally be insane.

[bilsu]

Never wish for a trip to the NIT.  I would rather be one and done in the tournament than win the NIT.  The underclassmen can learn the same thing by the team not making it to the second weekend.

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

The $$$ and prestige is so much better in the NCAAs, even with a 1st round loss. To a school like MU that hangs its hat on men's hoops, there's no comparison between the two. Even the tertiary marketing boost we pick up by being a 12 seed on the bracket that everyone and their grandma fills out makes it worth it.

[Coleman]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

I'd still rather be the 68th best team in the tournament than the #1 team in the NIT (69th place).

Never hope for NIT

[4everwarriors]

NIT=Not In the Tournament

[Windyplayer]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

This puts great strain on the idea that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

Ox at the point?  We know he isn't afraid to take the three.

[keefe]

a trip to the NIT this year

Mike? Mike Deane? Is that you?

[Badgerhater]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

I attended an NIT game at the Bradley Center in the late 1990s.  I think MU beat Creighton in a great game.  No seats in the upper bowl were sold.

It is better for MU to keep its NCAA streak alive than to play a few poorly attended games in the BC.

[connie]

Mike? Mike Deane? Is that you?

Ha!  You would have hoped our expectations would be higher.

[bilsu]

I attended an NIT game at the Bradley Center in the late 1990s.  I think MU beat Creighton in a great game.  No seats in the upper bowl were sold.

It is better for MU to keep its NCAA streak alive than to play a few poorly attended games in the BC.

Everyone wants to go to NCAA. Right now I am not sure we will even get in the NIT. I see the game at Butler as a pivotal game. We have yet to win a true road game and until we do we are headed for a losing season.

[Texas Western]

Every situation is unique. Oyler's defense was crucial over the long season and helped the Tiger's stellar pitching dominate the AL. But in a 7 game series, where both teams had Hall of Fame caliber pitching staffs, Mayo knew that Stanley's bat was far more important than Oyler's glove and he was willing to take a monumental risk. Remember that Stanley was one of baseball's best CF's, 5 Gold Gloves, and asking him to play out of position in the most important infield spot was questioned by the exerts and pundits. In the end, when the Tigers won largely due to the offensive power generated by the 3 outfielders, Smith's genius was hailed by all. Success has many mothers while failure is usually an orphan.

The Neary/Toone case is a red herring but the reality is that Al's legacy is hugely different if his final chapter at MU ended with us in the NIT. And Mayo Smith's gamble has gone down as one of the best coaching moves in the 20th Century.

Playing Oyler during the regular season contributed to winning the pennant. Marquette's current mix is not winning the pennant. And therein lies the difference.

I was thinking about the Oyler analogy myself and glad it was posted.Al Kaline , a first ballot almost unanimous hall of famer, was hurt for the most part of 68, moving Stanley to short was mostly about keeping Kaline in the lineup in the world series and as you point out upgrading to a better hitter in Stanley. I don't think it was a huge risk because Stanley was a great athlete in the field and the pitchers in those days on the Tigers were big strikeout guys.

Relating it to us, Derrick is not delivering at the  Ray Oyler level and I for one would rather see him as a sub and have guys who can score like Todd and our two fab frosh Deonte and JJJ instead.  Both can play good enough defense if they make the effort. If we need him Jamil will be Mickey Stanley and play point.

[dgies9156]

The Tigers had an incredible fielding shortstop in Ray Oyler. Problem was that Oyler was batting .135 for the 1968 season including going 0 for August. Manager Mayo Smith benched Oyler for the Series, playing OF Mickey Stanley at the 6. Stanley had not played SS since Little League but Smith knew that offense would determine the outcome of a pitching dominant Series.

ESPN rated Smith's move as one of the 10 best coaching decisions of the 20th century. The Tigers went on to take the Series from the Cards. Kessinger's Cubs, meanwhile, never won a thing.

If Curt Flood played center field at a normal depth, Norm Cash would have made a long out in the 1968 World Series and Detroit would have been where they should have been -- an also ran. Mike Shannon and Bob Gibson would have been the heroes.

I loved Curt Flood and still do. He made an honest mistake in positioning himself in the seventh game of that series. Flood made Mayo Smith look good.

After 1968, did we ever see Mayo again? Except on turkey, I don't think so.

[keefe]

If Curt Flood played center field at a normal depth, Norm Cash would have made a long out in the 1968 World Series and Detroit would have been where they should have been -- an also ran. Mike Shannon and Bob Gibson would have been the heroes.

I loved Curt Flood and still do. He made an honest mistake in positioning himself in the seventh game of that series. Flood made Mayo Smith look good.

After 1968, did we ever see Mayo again? Except on turkey, I don't think so.

If only Brock had slid...

[humanlung]

Everyone, I totally agree that NCAA > NIT in all circumstances.  The point I was trying to make, perhaps poorly, is that it might be valuable from a development standpoint if the underclassmen were to learn early in their respective MU careers that the NCAA Tourney is NOT a given.  That you have to work hard for it.  Everyday.  That the TEAM is what gets there, not the individual.

I am of the opinion that certain upperclassmen have lost sight of the work ethic and team-focus that is needed to succeed.  Better to have the Frosh lean a hard lesson now, rather than get into bad habits. 

[keefe]

I loved Curt Flood and still do.

Yes, but did he love you back? If not then you should let him go. Please, for yourself if not for others. It is time.