Optimism and the Turnraound

[jeffreyweee]

While many people are frustrated by our loss at Xavier I saw a different team in that game and a different coach in that game. When we make the tournament and look a back on the season I think the game at Xavier will be the turning point. I don't think we're going to be a team to make it out of the first weekend but I think we'll be there. For a team that lost Vander, McKay, Wilson and for all intents and purposes STjr I think that's a successful season. We started 2-5 Lazar's last year, we're 2-2 and I see a Nova upset in our future.

[nathanziarek]

You. I like you.

[tower912]

13-5 in conference.  8-10 seed in dance.   One big upset.   Second weekend. 

[4everwarriors]

I see an evening rendezvous with Jennifer Lawrence in your future.

[tower912]

I've been wrong before.   I've been married for 22 years, so I am familiar with being wrong a lot.   I just feel that in this conference, this season, this team is about to turn a corner and go on a run.   Undefeated at home, 4 wins out of these 5 on the road:  DePaul, Seton Hall, Providence, SJU, Butler.  Todd, Jamil, and Davante start bringing it every night.    The team gets hot, has confidence going into the dance, and becomes the team that many were expecting at the beginning of the season.   

[forgetful]

I've been wrong before.   I've been married for 22 years, so I am familiar with being wrong a lot.   I just feel that in this conference, this season, this team is about to turn a corner and go on a run.   Undefeated at home, 4 wins out of these 5 on the road:  DePaul, Seton Hall, Providence, SJU, Butler.  Todd, Jamil, and Davante start bringing it every night.    The team gets hot, has confidence going into the dance, and becomes the team that many were expecting at the beginning of the season.   

I like the sound of this and agree that it is possible.  Things could be a lot worse.  I was looking at the resume's/future games between us and UNC.  I like our situation better.

[NersEllenson]

I've been wrong before.   I've been married for 22 years, so I am familiar with being wrong a lot.   I just feel that in this conference, this season, this team is about to turn a corner and go on a run.   Undefeated at home, 4 wins out of these 5 on the road:  DePaul, Seton Hall, Providence, SJU, Butler.  Todd, Jamil, and Davante start bringing it every night.    The team gets hot, has confidence going into the dance, and becomes the team that many were expecting at the beginning of the season.   

First things first - congrats on 22 years!  I too have not given up total hope on the season, and actually felt going into the season the team had Final Four potential.  To see it struggle this mightily has been a shock.  Even if we continue to roll with Derrick for 30 - if Buzz can figure it all out on how to hide his shortcomings - which I feel he could mitigate if he starts getting max minutes for Mayo, Burton, Gardner - and Jamil can hit his stride - we still could make some waves.

Yet in a less optimistic frame of mind, I feel chances are better that we'll continue to struggle and be completely on the bubble and likely end up 10-8 in conference.

[real chili 83]

Night in, and night out, we will have the best athlete on the floor.  

And we will have a great defender on the floor.  Ok, here's a stretch....Don Kessinger couldnt hit for sh1t, bot nothing got past him at shortstop.  

I am not worried.  Lots of ball to be played.

[GurneeHitchkr]

Amen to that.  I figure we've had two, maybe three, unexpected losses.  No really bad losses (if X keeps winning, then no bad losses so far)  No great wins either.  As long as we keep winning the games we are supposed to win and have no bad losses and get one upset (Villinova at home?) then we are in the tournament.  Hopefully, we get on a roll near the end of the season when it matters most.  Seems like we are slowly getting there. The end of our conference schedule is in our favor for many wins (except @ Villinova), so looks good for us to get hot when we need to get hot. Stay positive.

[RubyWiscy]

In BE play MU is 2-2 with 2 road losses vs. teams currently 3-0 in league. Could be better, but not unreasonable.  Conference season is still very young. This team has leadership issues, but there is still hope.

[MU82]

Hope is what we fans do best.

Better than sitting in a corner moaning, "Why us?"

[keefe]

Ok, here's a stretch....Don Kessinger couldnt hit for sh1t, bot nothing got past him at shortstop.  

The Tigers had an incredible fielding shortstop in Ray Oyler. Problem was that Oyler was batting .135 for the 1968 season including going 0 for August. Manager Mayo Smith benched Oyler for the Series, playing OF Mickey Stanley at the 6. Stanley had not played SS since Little League but Smith knew that offense would determine the outcome of a pitching dominant Series.

ESPN rated Smith's move as one of the 10 best coaching decisions of the 20th century. The Tigers went on to take the Series from the Cards. Kessinger's Cubs, meanwhile, never won a thing.

Marquette this season plays solid D but loses because it lacks offense. Do we have a Ray Oyler and, more importantly, is there a Mickey Stanley sitting rather than contributing? 

[statnik]

Hope is what we fans do best.

Better than sitting in a corner moaning, "Why us?"

Or you could take the middle route and think, realistically, based on what we've seen this year so far, we're a .500 team, it's not like we're getting Duane Wilson back this year (if that was the case, there'd be more room for optimism).

[wardle2wade]

I still like MU to back into the big dance as a 10-12 seed.  Lot of basketball to still be played, and the big east is stacking up nicely compared to other conferences.  Currently as a conference, big east is #3 vs acc at #5.

 A lot of other bubble-watch teams will accumulate bad losses etc.  For example, a probably-overrated #23 illini just got shellacked by Wisconsin and took a very bad loss to Northwestern today... the same NW team which lost to depaul a couple weeks ago.  Mu's sins (losses) really stand out now, but i doubt they look as glaring in march. 

Sidenote... I don't know if others find themselves scoreboard watching for upsets like I do, but this year we actually want most ranked teams (probably tourney teams) to hold serve and win.  MU will be up against the underdog teams for a tourney bid.  For example, Missouri State blowing it against Wichita State prevented them from getting a cornerstone win to their win-bloated resume.

Anyways, assuming MU gets the home wins and a few on the road, I like our chances.  After the unexpected personnel losses this season, a tourney berth is a great milestone this year... Keeps the impressive long ncaa streak alive.  

[ATWizJr]

The Tigers had an incredible fielding shortstop in Ray Oyler. Problem was that Oyler was batting .135 for the 1968 season including going 0 for August. Manager Mayo Smith benched Oyler for the Series, playing OF Mickey Stanley at the 6. Stanley had not played SS since Little League but Smith knew that offense would determine the outcome of a pitching dominant Series.

ESPN rated Smith's move as one of the 10 best coaching decisions of the 20th century. The Tigers went on to take the Series from the Cards. Kessinger's Cubs, meanwhile, never won a thing.

Marquette this season plays solid D but loses because it lacks offense. Do we have a Ray Oyler and, more importantly, is there a Mickey Stanley sitting rather than contributing? 

  The question may be: Do we have a Mayo Smith?

[keefe]

  The question may be: Do we have a Mayo Smith?

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

[tower912]

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

So, address the elephant.  Start a thread about the elephant.   Embrace the elephant. 

[CTWarrior]

While many people are frustrated by our loss at Xavier I saw a different team in that game and a different coach in that game. When we make the tournament and look a back on the season I think the game at Xavier will be the turning point.

I thought so, too.  But Seton Hall game dampened my enthusiasm despite the win.  Same issues scoring when we needed to.  There is still hope that we can turn it around, but the evidence in terms of play on the court isn't there yet.

[mug644]

I thought so, too.  But Seton Hall game dampened my enthusiasm despite the win.  Same issues scoring when we needed to.  There is still hope that we can turn it around, but the evidence in terms of play on the court isn't there yet.

I also thought the Xavier game seemed like it might have been a turnaround game, despite the loss, but the Seton Hall game showed how inconsistent the team is. Near the beginning of this thread, Tower912 laid out what really does seem like a feasible path towards a solid remainder to the season. But, it really requires things that haven't happened yet this year…getting hot (and staying, at least steady; how many players have put together even two solid games in a row this season?), having confidence (no one seems to show that they have both the green light and the willingness to take charge of the team, of a game).

While I can understand some frustration with Buzz this year, I think that he's doing a yeoman's job of managing a consistently unpredictable team. He has no idea who's going to show up for any given game, who's going put forth real effort, who's going to be hot, who's going to step up, who's going to make the guys around him better. Moreover, more than other seasons, I think he's really grappling with the differences between players' skills or potential on offense with their liabilities on defense. To a certain degree, he totally has to rely on his history with the guys (hence what we see as 'loyalty') and on what he sees in practice before games. Maybe some players need time to get into the flow of a game, but I can see why Buzz has a relatively short lease; with so much uncertainty, yet so many combinations to try, he may need to see some quick positives in players' efforts and/or results.

It is a real challenge to have so many changeable roles (really only Derrick, Jake and Chris seem to have very clearly defined roles), and have no one who regularly provides what is expected and needed. (While I get upset with Derrick and Jake's limitations, I give them the most credit for being consistent over the course of the season.)

Back to potential optimism, I really want to have it, and I suppose I remain hopeful, but I really think there are too many variables that need to fall into place to seriously turn the season around. But, I am and will remain a fan, of the team and of Buzz.

[Coleman]

I see an evening rendezvous with Jennifer Lawrence in your future.

EXCELSIOR


This season makes me want to go running with a trash bag on

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

I predict 3 losses in a row, but then the schedule opens up very nicely and I think they could win 7 or 8 out of the remaining 10.

This board is going to be in full meltdown mode on Jan. 25th when their record is 2-5.

[bilsu]

I think the Xavier game showed some positive things. There are three NCAA teams in this conference and our two losses on the road are to that group. So that is  a positive sign. There are three bad teams in our conference, maybe 4 if you included Butler in that group. Our two wins are home games against that group. However, those wins were not impressive and that should bother you more than the two losses.

[Lennys Tap]

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

So Mayo Smith played Oyler at shortstop for the entire season in spite of a .135 batting average. And Al McGuire started Bill Neary for an entire season while top 5 in the country guy Bernard Toone gathered splinters. If the Tigers don't make it to the WS I guess Mayo Smith is an idiot. And if Marquette doesn't make the tournament in 77 (we were the last team in) ditto for Al. Are you advocating sticking with Derrick for the entire season and then giving more time to John Dawson once we make the Final 4 - sounds like that's what the great Mayo Smith or Al would have done.

[nathanziarek]

I've been wrong before.   I've been married for 22 years, so I am familiar with being wrong a lot.

Oh man.   I'm just about at 10 years. I was hoping being wrong all the time ended at some point.

Congrats, though!

[Silkk the Shaka]

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

I predict 3 losses in a row, but then the schedule opens up very nicely and I think they could win 7 or 8 out of the remaining 10.

This board is going to be in full meltdown mode on Jan. 25th when their record is 2-5.

Same thoughts here. Close calls the next three to go down to 2-5, then we start winning the close call games down the stretch to go 11-7. Win a couple in the BET and we're in. Backs to the wall! TBW redux!

[keefe]

So Mayo Smith played Oyler at shortstop for the entire season in spite of a .135 batting average. And Al McGuire started Bill Neary for an entire season while top 5 in the country guy Bernard Toone gathered splinters. If the Tigers don't make it to the WS I guess Mayo Smith is an idiot. And if Marquette doesn't make the tournament in 77 (we were the last team in) ditto for Al. Are you advocating sticking with Derrick for the entire season and then giving more time to John Dawson once we make the Final 4 - sounds like that's what the great Mayo Smith or Al would have done.

Every situation is unique. Oyler's defense was crucial over the long season and helped the Tiger's stellar pitching dominate the AL. But in a 7 game series, where both teams had Hall of Fame caliber pitching staffs, Mayo knew that Stanley's bat was far more important than Oyler's glove and he was willing to take a monumental risk. Remember that Stanley was one of baseball's best CF's, 5 Gold Gloves, and asking him to play out of position in the most important infield spot was questioned by the exerts and pundits. In the end, when the Tigers won largely due to the offensive power generated by the 3 outfielders, Smith's genius was hailed by all. Success has many mothers while failure is usually an orphan.

The Neary/Toone case is a red herring but the reality is that Al's legacy is hugely different if his final chapter at MU ended with us in the NIT. And Mayo Smith's gamble has gone down as one of the best coaching moves in the 20th Century.

Playing Oyler during the regular season contributed to winning the pennant. Marquette's current mix is not winning the pennant. And therein lies the difference.



 

[CTWarrior]

Same thoughts here. Close calls the next three to go down to 2-5, then we start winning the close call games down the stretch to go 11-7. Win a couple in the BET and we're in. Backs to the wall! TBW redux!

If we go 11-7 in the Big East plus win 2 in the BET (losing in the final), that would make us 21-13.  I don't think a 21-13 team in this Big East with our non-con profile makes the tourney.  I think we need to right the ship now and take at least one of the next three.  I think we can, and two isn't out of the question.

[copious1218]

Personally, I think we'll win @ Butler and @ G'Town.

[jsglow]

If we go 11-7 in the Big East plus win 2 in the BET (losing in the final), that would make us 21-13.  I don't think a 21-13 team in this Big East with our non-con profile makes the tourney.  I think we need to right the ship now and take at least one of the next three.  I think we can, and two isn't out of the question.

Really CT?  While I'd be far from comfortable I think that just might sneak us in.  Others I'm sure can point to conference RPI but our non-con schedule was brutal.  Making it to the conference final will likely mean defeating either Creighton or Nova in NYC.

I'd agree that 2-1 over the next three is a reach but would represent a significant step forward.  It all starts Saturday in Indy. 

[wardle2wade]

If we go 11-7 in the Big East plus win 2 in the BET (losing in the final), that would make us 21-13.  I don't think a 21-13 team in this Big East with our non-con profile makes the tourney.  I think we need to right the ship now and take at least one of the next three.  I think we can, and two isn't out of the question.

Judging by the conference ratings, this year's Big East isn't as weak as everyone expected it to be... thus I don't think it's gonna be as big a detriment as we think.  

With what you described (11-7 + 2 BET wins, 21-13), I'm assuming there's also a couple Nova/Creighton wins in there?  Assuming yes (and we also avoid the "bad loss"), MU would have a decent shot to make the tourney.  Last year, Nova got a #9 at 20-13... Illinois was #7 at 22-12... Cal was #11 at 20-11... Minn was #10 at 20-12.  Considering the last at-larges are usually #12 seeds, I'd say we still have a shot given those circumstances.

[CTWarrior]

Really CT?  While I'd be far from comfortable I think that just might sneak us in.  Others I'm sure can point to conference RPI but our non-con schedule was brutal.  Making it to the conference final will likely mean defeating either Creighton or Nova in NYC.

I'd agree that 2-1 over the next three is a reach but would represent a significant step forward.  It all starts Saturday in Indy. 

We'd be on the bubble for sure, and certainly not definitely out.  But I think we'd most likely be out in that scenario.  I think 23 is the magic number to be safely in, 22 is the number for likely in, and 21 is on the bubble and hope for other things to break right and 20 or less means a lot of things have to break right or we have to win the BET.  Really just a guess at this point though.  So many games yet to be played by so many teams.

[humanlung]

Call me crazy but a trip to the NIT this year might alert the underclassmen that the attitude, heart and work ethic of certain upperclassmen isn't what you want to mimic. 

[GooooMarquette]

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

True, but regardless of the outcome of this season, it would be way too premature to decide which size of the line Buzz is on. 

Through five seasons, Buzz has actually had more post-season success than Al did. And Al didn't get us further than the Elite Eight until his 10th season.  Buzz could fail mightily this season...and still would have time (in my book) to show that he had the same kind of genius as Al....

[Badgerhater]

Call me crazy but a trip to the NIT this year might alert the underclassmen that the attitude, heart and work ethic of certain upperclassmen isn't what you want to mimic.  

Never wish for a trip to the NIT.  I would rather be one and done in the tournament than win the NIT.  The underclassmen can learn the same thing by the team not making it to the second weekend.

[Windyplayer]

Never wish for a trip to the NIT.  I would rather be one and done in the tournament than win the NIT.

Anybody that said otherwise would literally be insane.

[bilsu]

Never wish for a trip to the NIT.  I would rather be one and done in the tournament than win the NIT.  The underclassmen can learn the same thing by the team not making it to the second weekend.

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

The $$$ and prestige is so much better in the NCAAs, even with a 1st round loss. To a school like MU that hangs its hat on men's hoops, there's no comparison between the two. Even the tertiary marketing boost we pick up by being a 12 seed on the bracket that everyone and their grandma fills out makes it worth it.

[Coleman]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

I'd still rather be the 68th best team in the tournament than the #1 team in the NIT (69th place).

Never hope for NIT

[4everwarriors]

NIT=Not In the Tournament

[Windyplayer]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

This puts great strain on the idea that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well said, Tom. Fact is there's an elephant in the living room that has begun passing gas and yet nobody really wants to address the matter.

Mayo Smith recognized that success requires not just the brilliance of insight but the audacity of the unconventional. Eccentricity that is merely peculiar is nothing more than idiosyncrasy. Eccentricity which yields greatness is genius. Al McGuire understood that subtle yet profound difference.
 

Ox at the point?  We know he isn't afraid to take the three.

[keefe]

a trip to the NIT this year

Mike? Mike Deane? Is that you?

[Badgerhater]

Money wise a first round NCAA loss is better. However, five post season wins and an NIT championship to me is preferable to a first round NCAA loss. A 20-12 team losing a first round game finishes 20-13. 25-12 looks a lot better. Besides that I get to watch MU play 4 more games.

I attended an NIT game at the Bradley Center in the late 1990s.  I think MU beat Creighton in a great game.  No seats in the upper bowl were sold.

It is better for MU to keep its NCAA streak alive than to play a few poorly attended games in the BC.

[connie]

Mike? Mike Deane? Is that you?

Ha!  You would have hoped our expectations would be higher.

[bilsu]

I attended an NIT game at the Bradley Center in the late 1990s.  I think MU beat Creighton in a great game.  No seats in the upper bowl were sold.

It is better for MU to keep its NCAA streak alive than to play a few poorly attended games in the BC.

Everyone wants to go to NCAA. Right now I am not sure we will even get in the NIT. I see the game at Butler as a pivotal game. We have yet to win a true road game and until we do we are headed for a losing season.

[Texas Western]

Every situation is unique. Oyler's defense was crucial over the long season and helped the Tiger's stellar pitching dominate the AL. But in a 7 game series, where both teams had Hall of Fame caliber pitching staffs, Mayo knew that Stanley's bat was far more important than Oyler's glove and he was willing to take a monumental risk. Remember that Stanley was one of baseball's best CF's, 5 Gold Gloves, and asking him to play out of position in the most important infield spot was questioned by the exerts and pundits. In the end, when the Tigers won largely due to the offensive power generated by the 3 outfielders, Smith's genius was hailed by all. Success has many mothers while failure is usually an orphan.

The Neary/Toone case is a red herring but the reality is that Al's legacy is hugely different if his final chapter at MU ended with us in the NIT. And Mayo Smith's gamble has gone down as one of the best coaching moves in the 20th Century.

Playing Oyler during the regular season contributed to winning the pennant. Marquette's current mix is not winning the pennant. And therein lies the difference.

I was thinking about the Oyler analogy myself and glad it was posted.Al Kaline , a first ballot almost unanimous hall of famer, was hurt for the most part of 68, moving Stanley to short was mostly about keeping Kaline in the lineup in the world series and as you point out upgrading to a better hitter in Stanley. I don't think it was a huge risk because Stanley was a great athlete in the field and the pitchers in those days on the Tigers were big strikeout guys.

Relating it to us, Derrick is not delivering at the  Ray Oyler level and I for one would rather see him as a sub and have guys who can score like Todd and our two fab frosh Deonte and JJJ instead.  Both can play good enough defense if they make the effort. If we need him Jamil will be Mickey Stanley and play point.

[dgies9156]

The Tigers had an incredible fielding shortstop in Ray Oyler. Problem was that Oyler was batting .135 for the 1968 season including going 0 for August. Manager Mayo Smith benched Oyler for the Series, playing OF Mickey Stanley at the 6. Stanley had not played SS since Little League but Smith knew that offense would determine the outcome of a pitching dominant Series.

ESPN rated Smith's move as one of the 10 best coaching decisions of the 20th century. The Tigers went on to take the Series from the Cards. Kessinger's Cubs, meanwhile, never won a thing.

If Curt Flood played center field at a normal depth, Norm Cash would have made a long out in the 1968 World Series and Detroit would have been where they should have been -- an also ran. Mike Shannon and Bob Gibson would have been the heroes.

I loved Curt Flood and still do. He made an honest mistake in positioning himself in the seventh game of that series. Flood made Mayo Smith look good.

After 1968, did we ever see Mayo again? Except on turkey, I don't think so.

[keefe]

If Curt Flood played center field at a normal depth, Norm Cash would have made a long out in the 1968 World Series and Detroit would have been where they should have been -- an also ran. Mike Shannon and Bob Gibson would have been the heroes.

I loved Curt Flood and still do. He made an honest mistake in positioning himself in the seventh game of that series. Flood made Mayo Smith look good.

After 1968, did we ever see Mayo again? Except on turkey, I don't think so.

If only Brock had slid...

[humanlung]

Everyone, I totally agree that NCAA > NIT in all circumstances.  The point I was trying to make, perhaps poorly, is that it might be valuable from a development standpoint if the underclassmen were to learn early in their respective MU careers that the NCAA Tourney is NOT a given.  That you have to work hard for it.  Everyday.  That the TEAM is what gets there, not the individual.

I am of the opinion that certain upperclassmen have lost sight of the work ethic and team-focus that is needed to succeed.  Better to have the Frosh lean a hard lesson now, rather than get into bad habits. 

[keefe]

I loved Curt Flood and still do.

Yes, but did he love you back? If not then you should let him go. Please, for yourself if not for others. It is time.

[dgies9156]

Yes, but did he love you back? If not then you should let him go. Please, for yourself if not for others. It is time.

Afraid not dude. Just like I loved Al, my Cardinals are my Cardinals.

They don't let me down the way the Cubs do their fans.

World Champions. National League Champions. Winners are winners. When the Cardinals beat the heavily favored Tigers to win the Series in 2006, it was God's way of making amends for that awful 1968 World Series. It was God coming down and saying, "OK, I goofed back then... will you let me off the hook now?"

[keefe]

Just like I loved Al

Kaline?

[dgies9156]

Kaline?

You smoking something legal in Colorado.

God gave us 2006 to make up for the joke he gave us in 1968.