+/- DePaul Game

[BenCat12]

Name   Plus   Minus  Game   Min.           P/M per Min
J. Wilson   56   51        5          31                 0.16
D. Gardner   58   49        9          35                 0.26
J. Anderson12   18       -6          10                -0.6
J. Thomas   56   50        6          36                 0.17
C. Otule   15   15        0          16                   0
D. Wilson   54   38       16          31                0.52
T. Mayo   55   33       22          29                0.76
D. Burton   24   26       -2         12               -0.17

Basically this is a breakdown of the points scored and given up while each player was in the game. Not by the individual player, but the team while said player was in the game.  For example, while Jamil was in the game 56 points were scored by MU while 51 were given up.  The P/M per min. stat is the amount of points each player contributed per minute played.  Interesting we all assume Gardner as stud of the game, but from a statistical breakdown perspective Mayo effected his teams productivity the most, followed by Derrick Wilson.  Hope this gives some perspective.

[UticaBusBarn]

Thank you ... always helpful to actually see a few numbers as opposed speculation.

The most illuminating fact in your analysis is that the J.Wilson, D. Wilson, T. Mayo, J. Thomas, D. Gardner five were the most effective combination, and that Mayo may have been the key. (Note this line-up is composed of three seniors and two juniors.)

The above noted five also meet the proverbial eye-ball test. They actually looked like a team. Mayo, in particular, seemed to be a real point guard, although he was running the point, more or less, from the wing.

After 15 games I would hope that a team of five has (finally) emerged. However, the thought is tempered when one considers a game with a minute to play, the Warriors up by one, and D. Wilson bringing the ball down the court. Fouling him is like money in the bank for any Warrior opponent in a tight game.

Anyway, good statistics and I would hope you could keep providing us with this sort of analysis.

[GooooMarquette]

Good to have a few facts.  I tried pointing out in another thread that Derrick made a huge difference yesterday, but the usual naysayers did nothing but quote individual stats from the box score...totally ignoring the fact that the TEAM played much better with him in.  Nice to see great numbers from Todd as well.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Good to have a few facts.  I tried pointing out in another thread that Derrick made a huge difference yesterday, but the usual naysayers did nothing but quote individual stats from the box score...totally ignoring the fact that the TEAM played much better with him in.  Nice to see great numbers from Todd as well.

+1

Wonder why none of those folks have bothered to make an appearance in this thread?? 

[NersEllenson]

+1

Wonder why none of those folks have bothered to make an appearance in this thread?? 

Well when you play 31 of the 40 minutes available in a game, and you win the game by 11 - it shouldn't come as a shock Derrick's +/- was good.  How many of his 31 minutes was Mayo in the game with him?  Gardner?

If you nuts want to sing the praises of a guy who put up Derrick's stat line yesterday against the perennial cellar dweller in the Big East - knock yourselves out.  He had 2 turnovers, 0 steals, 0 FG's made, shot 33% from the FT line, and had 3 assists.  Wow.  Definitely was a difference maker out there yesterday - sure handled all that full court pressure with ease...wait, he's never been pressed all year.

[GGGG]

It doesn't take a genius to see that he was much better handling the ball than Jamil was.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Well when you play 31 of the 40 minutes available in a game, and you win the game by 11 - it shouldn't come as a shock Derrick's +/- was good.  How many of his 31 minutes was Mayo in the game with him?  Gardner?

If you nuts want to sing the praises of a guy who put up Derrick's stat line yesterday against the perennial cellar dweller in the Big East - knock yourselves out.  He had 2 turnovers, 0 steals, 0 FG's made, shot 33% from the FT line, and had 3 assists.  Wow.  Definitely was a difference maker out there yesterday - sure handled all that full court pressure with ease...wait, he's never been pressed all year.

Do you at least recognize the irony of posting his indvidual stats <again> in a thread about how much better the <team> performed with him in the game?  

Oh, and by the way, I will take that stat line from him every time if we win the game.  And I am sure he is just fine with it as well.  

[NersEllenson]

It doesn't take a genius to see that he was much better handling the ball than Jamil was.

I'm happy to agree with you here - yet I'd hope the starting PG and leading minute getter on the team, is better handling the ball than a 6'7, three or four.

It also doesn't take a genius to see MU hasn't been getting pressed all year, nor faced a ton of ball pressure, so I don't see it as a great achievement to play relatively turnover free - that wasn't exactly Lville out there today.  

It also doesn't take a genius to look at Derrick's stat line from DePaul or Creighton for that matter and see he's highly ineffective.  But...perhaps, as you've said Sultan - he is the best option on the team - and Dawson would be far worse, as hard as that is for me to believe.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I'm happy to agree with you here - yet I'd hope the starting PG and leading minute getter on the team, is better handling the ball than a 6'7, three or four.

It also doesn't take a genius to see MU hasn't been getting pressed all year, nor faced a ton of ball pressure, so I don't see it as a great achievement to play relatively turnover free - that wasn't exactly Lville out there today.  

It also doesn't take a genius to look at Derrick's stat line from DePaul or Creighton for that matter and see he's highly ineffective.  But...perhaps, as you've said Sultan - he is the best option on the team - and Dawson would be far worse, as hard as that is for me to believe.

And what is the reason that teams are not pressing us do you think?

[Wojo'sMojo]

And what is the reason that teams are not pressing us do you think?

The good teams don't need to press us. They know once Derrick gets it over half court he will bog down our offense anyway.

[NersEllenson]

And what is the reason that teams are not pressing us do you think?

It's obvious - Derrick Wilson strikes the fear in the hearts of our oppositions coaching staff.  Sarcasm aside, why would you press a team and potentially* give a team a 3 on 2 opportunity, when you can just settle into your halfcourt defense and force MU to play 4 against 5 (per Buzz's words).

However, I really hope to hell we don't see a full court press this year, as I have serious doubts about our ability to handle that.  

[ATL MU Warrior]

It's obvious - Derrick Wilson strikes the fear in the hearts of our oppositions coaching staff.  Sarcasm aside, why would you press a team and potentially* give a team a 3 on 2 opportunity, when you can just settle into your halfcourt defense and force MU to play 4 against 5 (per Buzz's words).

However, I really hope to hell we don't see a full court press this year, as I have serious doubts about our ability to handle that.  

I don't know why teams would press us either, we have too many guys that can handle the ball for it to be effective.  I'm just curious why you keep bringing it up as an excuse to bash Derrick if you think it's a poor strategy for teams to use against us to begin with.

[NersEllenson]

I don't know why teams would press us either, we have too many guys that can handle the ball for it to be effective.  I'm just curious why you keep bringing it up as an excuse to bash Derrick if you think it's a poor strategy for teams to use against us to begin with.

Trust me on this one ATL - you do not want to see what will happen with this MU team if it faces a stiff full court press.  But, you asked why we haven't seen it, and I and MUBUZZ gave you the answer.

Quite frankly, I don't think it would be a poor strategy for teams to full court press us from their perspective...as I think we'd turn it over a ton....but...there is no real point to do it, when you know you can defend in the halfcourt essentially 5 on 4.

Why I mention the lack of teams pressuring us, is because, some people want to trumpet how good Derrick is at protecting the ball - yet he virtually never is faced with intense on the ball or full court pressure.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Trust me on this one ATL - you do not want to see what will happen with this MU team if it faces a stiff full court press.  But, you asked why we haven't seen it, and I and MUBUZZ gave you the answer.

Quite frankly, I don't think it would be a poor strategy for teams to full court press us from their perspective...as I think we'd turn it over a ton....but...there is no real point to do it, when you know you can defend in the halfcourt essentially 5 on 4.

Why I mention the lack of teams pressuring us, is because, some people want to trumpet how good Derrick is at protecting the ball - yet he virtually never is faced with intense on the ball or full court pressure.

Sorry, I don't trust you on this.  Your credibility is zero, despite your being an "avid dunker", your Dominic James-like vertical, and all your other significant basketball accomplishments. 

[River rat]

I would defintely agree that we were better with derrick out than than when we had no PG.  however, just because he is the best PG on our team does not mean he is a good PG.  i like jake and derrick, seem like wonderful kids n representatives of MU.  However, they are the worst starting 2g and pg in the big east.  Hopefully derrick can step up his game we really have no alternative and mayo and jjj can step up theirs and improve our play at the 2

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm happy to agree with you here - yet I'd hope the starting PG and leading minute getter on the team, is better handling the ball than a 6'7, three or four.

Is it surprising that Jamil is better than Dawson?

I mean, if Buzz had ANY confidence in Dawson, he'd get some minutes, right?

[MU82]

Thank you ... always helpful to actually see a few numbers as opposed speculation.

The most illuminating fact in your analysis is that the J.Wilson, D. Wilson, T. Mayo, J. Thomas, D. Gardner five were the most effective combination, and that Mayo may have been the key. (Note this line-up is composed of three seniors and two juniors.)

The above noted five also meet the proverbial eye-ball test. They actually looked like a team. Mayo, in particular, seemed to be a real point guard, although he was running the point, more or less, from the wing.

After 15 games I would hope that a team of five has (finally) emerged. However, the thought is tempered when one considers a game with a minute to play, the Warriors up by one, and D. Wilson bringing the ball down the court. Fouling him is like money in the bank for any Warrior opponent in a tight game.

Anyway, good statistics and I would hope you could keep providing us with this sort of analysis.

Two things surprised me a little:

1. How loose with the ball Jamil was.

2. Why DePaul didn't foul Derrick in the final 2 minutes. If I were Purnell, I'd have forced Derrick to keep Marquette in the lead.

[connie]

Loved that Buzz was switching things up.  Loved that DG finally went off.  Loved the result.

Hated that we had to work so hard against DePaul--at home, and after their starting center picked up two fouls 34 seconds into the game.

Let's hope the experiments continue, with the same results, as we move forward.

[RushmoreAcademy]

No reason to press a team that is frequently horribly inept in the the half court offense and possibly give them any easy baskets.

[NersEllenson]

Is it surprising that Jamil is better than Dawson?

I mean, if Buzz had ANY confidence in Dawson, he'd get some minutes, right?

I'd hope Jamil as a 5th year senior is better than Dawson, and especially considering Buzz has said Jamil is the most talented player he's had at MU of all the guys.

To your point about Buzz lacking confidence in Dawson - clearly he must lack confidence - or as has been his M.O., while at MU, Buzz has a major aversion to giving freshman PT, over guys who have been hard workers, and high character guys, who are upperclassmen.  You could say Blue got a decent amount of time as a frosh - not sure who the backup alternative to Blue would have been at that time - perhaps fellow frosh Mayo?  But other than Vander, who was awful as a freshman - I don't recall one time a freshman has gotten 20+ minutes under Buzz.

The case of Dawson is an interesting one, simply because the upperclassmen in front of him has been so bad - there is a case there to go against convention for Buzz and give the frosh a chance.  But, clearly that doesn't appear as though its gonna happen.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'd hope Jamil as a 5th year senior is better than Dawson, and especially considering Buzz has said Jamil is the most talented player he's had at MU of all the guys.

To your point about Buzz lacking confidence in Dawson - clearly he must lack confidence - or as has been his M.O., while at MU, Buzz has a major aversion to giving freshman PT, over guys who have been hard workers, and high character guys, who are upperclassmen.  You could say Blue got a decent amount of time as a frosh - not sure who the backup alternative to Blue would have been at that time - perhaps fellow frosh Mayo?  But other than Vander, who was awful as a freshman - I don't recall one time a freshman has gotten 20+ minutes under Buzz.

The case of Dawson is an interesting one, simply because the upperclassmen in front of him has been so bad - there is a case there to go against convention for Buzz and give the frosh a chance.  But, clearly that doesn't appear as though its gonna happen.

#1 It is surprising to me that the starting combo forward is the best option as the back-up PG. MU isn't really deep at forward either, so regardless of how Jamil actually plays, there is a significant opportunity cost as well. Plus, Jamil looked bad when he was asked to play true PG. He's great at entry passes. He understands the offense. He's good at the top of the key. He's bad at bringing the ball up. He's bad at protecting when he has to put it on the floor in the back court.

#2 The whole "Buzz doesn't play frosh." thing was debunked by Paint Touches using data.

http://painttouches.com/2013/10/18/how-much-do-freshman-play-for-buzz-williams/

#3 Is it possible that you have just over estimated how good JD is right now? He might be MU's all time leading scorer in 4 years (I haven idea), but RIGHT NOW, it appears like the coach doesn't think he's ready for meaningful minutes.

[Lennys Tap]

  But other than Vander, who was awful as a freshman - I don't recall one time a freshman has gotten 20+ minutes under Buzz.

Exactly. Vander got 20+ but shouldn't have - he wasn't ready. Reggie Smith, Maymon, EW, Jamail, Ferguson, Mayo, Juan, Steve, etc. all arrived at MU with more impressive backgrounds than JD and none of them were ready to play that much at this level - but John Dawson, the fifth highest rated guy in this year's 5 man recruiting class, is. All of that, plus what Buzz sees in practice daily and his woeful numbers when he does play, scream "he's nowhere near ready". Everyone on this board wishes we didn't need Derrick to play 30 minutes to have a chance to win games. Buzz wishes we didn't (see the Jamil at point experiment). But the idea is still to try to win games and until/if the season is lost I hope that doesn't change.

[CTWarrior]

#1 It is surprising to me that the starting combo forward is the best option as the back-up PG. MU isn't really deep at forward either, so regardless of how Jamil actually plays, there is a significant opportunity cost as well. Plus, Jamil looked bad when he was asked to play true PG. He's great at entry passes. He understands the offense. He's good at the top of the key. He's bad at bringing the ball up. He's bad at protecting when he has to put it on the floor in the back court.

#2 The whole "Buzz doesn't play frosh." thing was debunked by Paint Touches using data.

http://painttouches.com/2013/10/18/how-much-do-freshman-play-for-buzz-williams/

#3 Is it possible that you have just over estimated how good JD is right now? He might be MU's all time leading scorer in 4 years (I haven idea), but RIGHT NOW, it appears like the coach doesn't think he's ready for meaningful minutes.

I think this is as reasonable and close to correct an assessment on this topic as I have seen.  The fact of the matter is that Derrick Wilson is not really a serviceable 25-30 mpg PG, but he is our best option.  If Buzz thought Dawson was ready at all, he'd be in there, because using Jamil at PG weakens us at 2 positions.  

There is no apparent good solution to our dilemma.  It is just a matter of finding the most optimal available solution.  

[tower912]

CT, there is a way out of the dilemma.   Start Todd or JJJ for Juan.   The offense looked so good against DePaul down the stretch because having Jamil, Todd, and Davante out there opened space for Jake.   Putting a second offensive threat out there to start the game creates space for Oxtule, and can create just enough help to get Jake open looks.   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think this is as reasonable and close to correct an assessment on this topic as I have seen.  The fact of the matter is that Derrick Wilson is not really a serviceable 25-30 mpg PG, but he is our best option.  If Buzz thought Dawson was ready at all, he'd be in there, because using Jamil at PG weakens us at 2 positions.  

There is no apparent good solution to our dilemma.  It is just a matter of finding the most optimal available solution.  

Agreed.

I actually "like" Derrick as a player... but he needs to split time with another PG to be at his best (the Wilson/Wilson combo could have been pretty good).

If Derrick could play 20-25mpg, I think he'd be more efficient as Buzz could mix/match him to create optimal match-ups.

As it stands, Derrick gets 30+ per night regardless of match-up, and I think it causes him to look pretty bad in spots.