Not that this would have helped the Warriors mascot

[RyanConroy]

Is the term Redneck racist? Been hearing that a lot the last two days.....apparently that term is ok.  It's all so confusing. 

Except that native americans have been subject to widespread discrimination and systematic oppression for centuries. So, no, the term "redneck" isn't as negative, hurtful, and evocative as ones like "redskin."

Racism results in oppression and discrimination. "Reverse racism" (for the record, I hate this term) results in hurt feelings and message board whining. This is why most people are more passionate about ending the usage of terms like "redskin" than "redneck."

[forgetful]

Except that native americans have been subject to widespread discrimination and systematic oppression for centuries. So, no, the term "redneck" isn't as negative, hurtful, and evocative as ones like "redskin."

Racism results in oppression and discrimination. "Reverse racism" (for the record, I hate this term) results in hurt feelings and message board whining. This is why most people are more passionate about ending the usage of terms like "redskin" than "redneck."

I rarely agree with chicos, but he is right.  Redneck is just as offensive as any other derogatory term.  In many parts of the country it results in oppression and discrimination...these parts do have reverse racism that affect a lot more than hurt feelings...maybe you just haven't been to those parts. 

Others are also correct in that willie wampum was a problem...warriors less of one. 

These arguments get repetitive where people are driven to extreme (and ridiculous) stances one way or the other.  Answer is almost always in the middle.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Except that native americans have been subject to widespread discrimination and systematic oppression for centuries. So, no, the term "redneck" isn't as negative, hurtful, and evocative as ones like "redskin."

Racism results in oppression and discrimination. "Reverse racism" (for the record, I hate this term) results in hurt feelings and message board whining. This is why most people are more passionate about ending the usage of terms like "redskin" than "redneck."

Ah yes, the degrees.  Always fun.  How do you know it isn't as hurtful.  Maybe there is ONE person that is in the south that is deeply offended.  It only takes one is what I was told here...just one.  I just find it ironic that those claiming racism and bigotry would use a word that SOME (at least one) may find derogatory, bigoted, etc.  Remember when we played the definition game in the dictionary not long ago with Redskins and the argument was that the dictionary says it is an offensive and derogatory term.  That was the gold standard used here and by many individuals making that argument.  It's interesting, if I go down that same path with the Redneck definition, it says: "Redneck is a derogatory slang term used in reference to poor, uneducated white farmers".  Huh.  Who would have thought it.   Isn't this fun?  


And by the way, MOST people are NOT passionate about ending the term redskin...that's what polls are for and show that isn't the case.  

[RyanConroy]

Ah yes, the degrees.  Always fun.  How do you know it isn't as hurtful.  Maybe there is ONE person that is in the south that is deeply offended.  It only takes one is what I was told here...just one.  I just find it ironic that those claiming racism and bigotry would use a word that SOME (at least one) may find derogatory, bigoted, etc.  Remember when we played the definition game in the dictionary not long ago with Redskins and the argument was that the dictionary says it is an offensive and derogatory term.  That was the gold standard used here and by many individuals making that argument.  It's interesting, if I go down that same path with the Redneck definition, it says: "Redneck is a derogatory slang term used in reference to poor, uneducated white farmers".  Huh.  Who would have thought it.   Isn't this fun?  

You don't understand. It isn't an issue of "the degrees." Native americans were oppressed in large part due to their cultural heritage, often perceived by many by the color of their skin. This oppression, for example, included expulsion from their land and woefully unequal access to basic rights. There is no parallel experience for southern, white Americans (I expect your next post to demonstrate a depressing lack of perception by refuting this point). When invoking the term "redskin" in a conversation, you make reference to this atrocious, unjust past that millions of native americans experienced and are still affected by today.

I would never advocate for the use of a word like "redneck." I think it generally is used discriminatorily. As such, I don't think it should be used to name sports teams either. That isn't to say, though, that it's equally offensive as "redneck."

And by the way, MOST people are NOT passionate about ending the term redskin...that's what polls are for and show that isn't the case.  

Learn to read.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think you are missing the overall point.  A number of those claiming Redskins is racist, insensitive, derogatory are the same ones flinging out the word Redneck.  I find it ironic, perhaps you don't.  Some rules apply to some, but not to others.

[ResidentBrown]

How can you say that rural, uneducated, white manual laborers - or "rednecks" - haven't been discriminated against or oppressed? Rural laborers have been the subject of atrocious systematic oppression throughout the entire course of civilization. I believe that the term "redneck" actually originated to describe white sharecroppers. You wanna talk about systematic oppression? Check out James Agee's "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" .

If you are going to go down that logical road, nothing is safe.

Except that native americans have been subject to widespread discrimination and systematic oppression for centuries. So, no, the term "redneck" isn't as negative, hurtful, and evocative as ones like "redskin."

Racism results in oppression and discrimination. "Reverse racism" (for the record, I hate this term) results in hurt feelings and message board whining. This is why most people are more passionate about ending the usage of terms like "redskin" than "redneck."

[RyanConroy]

I think you are missing the overall point.  A number of those claiming Redskins is racist, insensitive, derogatory are the same ones flinging out the word Redneck.  I find it ironic, perhaps you don't.  Some rules apply to some, but not to others.

The point of the thread debate was to determine whether words like "redskins" should be used as sports team names.

But to your sentiment, I don't find it particularly ironic. I find it predictable. If my people were on the short end of systematic discrimination for all of recent history, I, too, may have some choice words to say/invent about those who put me there. And I don't think that makes it right, but it does make it understandable. And for all the reasons I previously mentioned, still not nearly as hurtful.

[Lennys Tap]

Ah yes, the degrees.  Always fun.  How do you know it isn't as hurtful.  Maybe there is ONE person that is in the south that is deeply offended.  It only takes one is what I was told here...just one.  I just find it ironic that those claiming racism and bigotry would use a word that SOME (at least one) may find derogatory, bigoted, etc.  Remember when we played the definition game in the dictionary not long ago with Redskins and the argument was that the dictionary says it is an offensive and derogatory term.  That was the gold standard used here and by many individuals making that argument.  It's interesting, if I go down that same path with the Redneck definition, it says: "Redneck is a derogatory slang term used in reference to poor, uneducated white farmers".  Huh.  Who would have thought it.   Isn't this fun?  


And by the way, MOST people are NOT passionate about ending the term redskin...that's what polls are for and show that isn't the case.  

Let's see if I've got this straight:

1. Redneck is by definition a derogatory slang term. Using it is bigoted and racist.

2. Redskin is by definition a derogatory slang term. Using it is not bigoted or racist because polling data shows that most people are not passionate about ending it's use.

Wow.

[RyanConroy]

How can you say that rural, uneducated, white manual laborers - or "rednecks" - haven't been discriminated against or oppressed? Rural laborers have been the subject of atrocious systematic oppression throughout the entire course of civilization. I believe that the term "redneck" actually originated to describe white sharecroppers. You wanna talk about systematic oppression? Check out James Agee's "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" .

If you are going to go down that logical road, nothing is safe.

These are good points, and I have already mentioned I don't support the use of a term like "redneck" in general conversation or as a sports team name. I also would argue that the type of oppression that these people face(d) is/was mainly economic and less political (although certainly partly political). Their status wasn't predetermined by the color of their skin or cultural background.

[Coleman]

You don't understand. It isn't an issue of "the degrees." Native americans were oppressed in large part due to their cultural heritage, often perceived by many by the color of their skin. This oppression, for example, included expulsion from their land and woefully unequal access to basic rights. There is no parallel experience for southern, white Americans (I expect your next post to demonstrate a depressing lack of perception by refuting this point). When invoking the term "redskin" in a conversation, you make reference to this atrocious, unjust past that millions of native americans experienced and are still affected by today.

I would never advocate for the use of a word like "redneck." I think it generally is used discriminatorily. As such, I don't think it should be used to name sports teams either. That isn't to say, though, that it's equally offensive as "redneck."

Learn to read.

Well stated.


And Willie, thanks for the chuckles you provided while I was catching up on this thread. Holy moly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's see if I've got this straight:

1. Redneck is by definition a derogatory slang term. Using it is bigoted and racist.

2. Redskin is by definition a derogatory slang term. Using it is not bigoted or racist because polling data shows that most people are not passionate about ending it's use.

Wow.

LOL....things are clearly flying over your head today.  Try again, or maybe read again and I'll highlight my sarcasm from the very first post so you can follow along.

Or I can summarize it for you....neither term do I have an issue with at all.  That's me.  I find it ironic, however, that those bitching about Redskins are the first to use Redneck, another derogatory term.  Oh the irony. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

The point of the thread debate was to determine whether words like "redskins" should be used as sports team names.

But to your sentiment, I don't find it particularly ironic. I find it predictable. If my people were on the short end of systematic discrimination for all of recent history, I, too, may have some choice words to say/invent about those who put me there. And I don't think that makes it right, but it does make it understandable. And for all the reasons I previously mentioned, still not nearly as hurtful.

Of course not.  LOL

My favorite is watching the MSNBC crew the last few days with their heads exploding about the Duck Dynasty guy....these same guys calling him a redneck....these same talking heads unbelievably miffed at Redskins name last month and yet using a derogatory term the last two days (you can't make it up)....these same guys having no issue with Al Sharpton's crap....the hypocrisy has been hilarious.  You know it's bad when even Slate is calling out their own side for the double standards.  LOL.

If that side of the spectrum is going to play the high mantle card, the elitist "we are better" than the rest of America card, if you're going to pretend to lecture the unwashed you might want to not commit the same boner they are so outraged at by doing the same thing.  Or, better yet, pretend not to be outraged by either word and have a beer. That's what I'm doing.

The Redneck Redskins.  I like it, great name.

[warriorchick]

Of course not.  LOL

My favorite is watching the MSNBC crew the last few days with their heads exploding about the Duck Dynasty guy....these same guys calling him a redneck....these same talking heads unbelievably miffed at Redskins name last month and yet using a derogatory term the last two days (you can't make it up)....these same guys having no issue with Al Sharpton's crap....the hypocrisy has been hilarious.  You know it's bad when even Slate is calling out their own side for the double standards.  LOL.

MSNBC?  You mean the same network who wouldn't fire the guy who said someone should defecate in Sarah Palin's mouth?

[4everwarriors]

Aka a brown storm.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

The point of the thread debate was to determine whether words like "redskins" should be used as sports team names.

But to your sentiment, I don't find it particularly ironic. I find it predictable. If my people were on the short end of systematic discrimination for all of recent history, I, too, may have some choice words to say/invent about those who put me there. And I don't think that makes it right, but it does make it understandable. And for all the reasons I previously mentioned, still not nearly as hurtful.

Yes.  Repeat the same infraction you have an issue with. That makes perfect sense and evens things out doesn't it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Of course not.  LOL

My favorite is watching the MSNBC crew the last few days with their heads exploding about the Duck Dynasty guy....these same guys calling him a redneck....these same talking heads unbelievably miffed at Redskins name last month and yet using a derogatory term the last two days (you can't make it up)....these same guys having no issue with Al Sharpton's crap....the hypocrisy has been hilarious.  You know it's bad when even Slate is calling out their own side for the double standards.  LOL.

If that side of the spectrum is going to play the high mantle card, the elitist "we are better" than the rest of America card, if you're going to pretend to lecture the unwashed you might want to not commit the same boner they are so outraged at by doing the same thing.  Or, better yet, pretend not to be outraged by either word and have a beer. That's what I'm doing.

The Redneck Redskins.  I like it, great name.

I know you don't like it, but the rules are different for different populations. Groups in the majority have inherent privileges that just come with being a member of a majority group. For example, a white man never has to worry about being accused of a crime just because he was walking in an affluent neighborhood late at night. People of color do. A male teacher who is strict is referred to as having high standards or being disciplined. A female teacher who does the same thing is labeled a beotch. A straight couple never has to worry about holding hands in public. A gay couple has to worry about that constantly.

As MUStudent pointed out (said it much better than I could, btw) terms like redskin, chink, or fa**ot (insert whatever derogatory term you want) come with inherent oppression and to use them is continuing that oppression. It is really hard to oppress straight, white, men. We are pretty much always in power, no matter what the situation. So like MUStudent said, terms like Redneck shouldn't be used because they are derogatory, but it just doesn't carry the same bite that some of these others do. The reason being because even if they come from poor, disadvantaged backgrounds, they are still straight, white, men and as such, still carry a lot of privilege.

[Lennys Tap]

LOL....things are clearly flying over your head today.  Try again, or maybe read again and I'll highlight my sarcasm from the very first post so you can follow along.

Or I can summarize it for you....neither term do I have an issue with at all.  That's me.  I find it ironic, however, that those bitching about Redskins are the first to use Redneck, another derogatory term.  Oh the irony.  

I'm consistent. I don't like slang derogatory terms for people being used as nicknames for sports teams. For me, the Redskins, the Rednecks and the Redneck Redskins are out.

You say you're consistent and don't mind their use. Let's see how consistent. You ok with the "C" word as a nickname for a women's basketball team? It's only a slang derogatory word for women, so you shouldn't be bothered. And of course you'd be ok with nicknames like but not limited to Ni$$ers, Spics, Honkies, Porch Monkeys,  White Trash, Jungle Bunnies, Chinks, Dot Heads, Japs, Kikes, etc. Yeah, lots of solid slang derogatory possibilities. And to defend one is to defend them all. Picking which slang derogatory nicknames are ok and which aren't is arbitrary and hypocrisy personified.

So I guess you're ok with all of them. Or maybe we can do a poll to determine which slurs are ok - to the extent that a slur can be ok, that is. LOL

[keefe]

How can you say that rural, uneducated, white manual laborers - or "rednecks" - haven't been discriminated against or oppressed? Rural laborers have been the subject of atrocious systematic oppression throughout the entire course of civilization. I believe that the term "redneck" actually originated to describe white sharecroppers. You wanna talk about systematic oppression? Check out James Agee's "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" .

If you are going to go down that logical road, nothing is safe.

Please change your name on  this site. How dare you!

[keefe]

I haven't looked up the definition but my guess is that like Redskin it's an offensive term. So I'd at the very least be against using it as a nickname for a professional or college team. You'd be okay with it, I guess.

Like Jackson Browne I too have a Redneck Friend. He has been a true friend and never let me down. Granted, he is a fellow who craves the night life but his convivial bonhomie has ensured fascinating adventure. And whether the evening involves cultural exploration or simply an intense drinking session my Redneck Friend has stood by me, tall, strong, alert, vigilant, and ready for any eventuality. Ever loyal, he continues to greet me each morning with an enthusiastic salute. I have always had his back, too, and endeavored to satisfy his various needs as often as possible. In no way has he bristled at his nickname. Redneck Friend is a sobriquet he wears with tremendous pride. I see no problem with its use.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Like Jackson Browne I too have a Redneck Friend. He has been a true friend and never let me down. Granted, he is a fellow who craves the night life but his convivial bonhomie has ensured fascinating adventure. And whether the evening involves cultural exploration or simply an intense drinking session my Redneck Friend has stood by me, tall, strong, alert, vigilant, and ready for any eventuality. Ever loyal, he continues to greet me each morning with an enthusiastic salute. I have always had his back, too, and endeavored to satisfy his various needs as often as possible. In no way has he bristled at his nickname. Redneck Friend is a sobriquet he wears with tremendous pride. I see no problem with its use.

I see Redneck as a term of endearment, quite frankly and so do most of the folks I know that fit the description.  My brother in law, part Native American, feels the same way about Redskins.  But again, it only takes one.

What I find so funny right now with the heads exploding over the latest poutrage is there use of Redneck and their association that it means uneducated.  They might want to look at the person they are saying that about and his educational accomplishments, along with his business and familial accomplishments.  But they are still going to opine about the great unwashed among us, even if it means using verbiage that supposedly they are against.  It truly is fun to watch and to remind them of the irony and watch the back peddaling.

[willie warrior]

Well, we are, so I guess sometimes we do.

Yeah--refresh my memory--didn't Howard Cosell, that paragon of Liberal PC--refer to some guy as a "little monkey" that caused a bit of storm back in the day.

And didn't Bobby Knight say in an interview with Connie Chung say that "if it is inevitable that you are going to be raped, you might as well lay back and enjoy it."?

Ah yes, the good old days. At least to some people.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm consistent. I don't like slang derogatory terms for people being used as nicknames for sports teams. For me, the Redskins, the Rednecks and the Redneck Redskins are out.

You say you're consistent and don't mind their use. Let's see how consistent. You ok with the "C" word as a nickname for a women's basketball team? It's only a slang derogatory word for women, so you shouldn't be bothered. And of course you'd be ok with nicknames like but not limited to Ni$$ers, Spics, Honkies, Porch Monkeys,  White Trash, Jungle Bunnies, Chinks, Dot Heads, Japs, Kikes, etc. Yeah, lots of solid slang derogatory possibilities. And to defend one is to defend them all. Picking which slang derogatory nicknames are ok and which aren't is arbitrary and hypocrisy personified.

So I guess you're ok with all of them. Or maybe we can do a poll to determine which slurs are ok - to the extent that a slur can be ok, that is. LOL

You still cranky from last night I see.

Never did I say I was not against some words, did I?  I said I had no problem with Redskins, Rednecks and some others.  The words you have put forth in your revised, edited argument, are quite different.  It was a nice strawman attempt by you, but the logic separation is rather large especially when you again make a leap on something I never said but you imply I did or your inability to infer properly led you there.

[Lennys Tap]

You still cranky from last night I see.

Never did I say I was not against some words, did I?  I said I had no problem with Redskins, Rednecks and some others.  The words you have put forth in your revised, edited argument, are quite different.  It was a nice strawman attempt by you, but the logic  separation is rather large especially when you again make a leap on something I never said but you imply I did or your inability to infer properly led you there.

Not cranky at all. Just consistent. You mock the "lefties" (justifiably) for being offended by one derogatory slang word for a group (Redskins) but not another (rednecks), but you see nothing inconsistent or hypocritical in being offended by other derogatory slang words for groups (c word, n word, etc.) but not Redskins or Rednecks. So you're every bit as hypocritical and arbitrary as the people you attack. Like them, YOU want to decide which derogatory slurs are acceptable. Pot meet kettle.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not cranky at all. Just consistent. You mock the "lefties" (justifiably) for being offended by one derogatory slang word for a group (Redskins) but not another (rednecks), but you see nothing inconsistent or hypocritical in being offended by other derogatory slang words for groups (c word, n word, etc.) but not Redskins or Rednecks. So you're every bit as hypocritical and arbitrary as the people you attack. Like them, YOU want to decide which derogatory slurs are acceptable. Pot meet kettle.

LOL.  Nope.  Because I'm not imposing anything on anyone, and certainly don't have a bully pulpit, a microphone, camera, mass audience.  I'm not demanding a team change their name, I'm not demanding people get fired because they're on a cooking show and 25 years ago said one of these words, etc, etc.

I'm sure you see the difference....at least I hope you do. 


The people that are trying to make "change" and "progress" use these moments when people say these words to demand firings, suspensions, policy changes (NFL team name change) and yet these same people don't do it in other cases.  That's the hypocrisy.  If you're going out there in the name of whatever to change the world, then don't do exactly what you just got done railing against and demanding people lose their livelihoods over.   

[Eldon]

ND analogy is not apt. Notre Dame was founded by Irish Americans and the nickname is a reference to themselves. One could argue, to a lesser degree, the same thing about the Minnesota Vikings and the swedes/norwegians that live up there.

Last time I checked there weren't any Native Americans affiliated with the Washington Redskins. Not many at Marquette, either.

Redskins and the Willie Wampum caricature are absolutely racist. If one wants to make an argument that these mascots should be permitted in the face of that racism, that's one thing. There are some fair arguments that Willie Wampum/Warriors nickname and the Redskins nickname are not meant to be offensive and in a way even honor the toughness of the Native American people. But to entirely deny the racist element on those two fronts is just absurd.

I can't speak for the nickname, but "notre dame" is French, not English (or Celtic or Latin, for that matter).  That said, while I don't know this for sure, I would doubt an Irishman founded ND.

In any case, I still don't really buy that "Fighting Irish" is different than "Redskins."  I'm open to changing my mind, but I've heard this for quite sometime and have yet to hear a persuasive argument.  If some person (group?) is offended at having their people portrayed as a little red-haired drunkard putting up his dukes, then it is offensive.  I can see why someone/group of people would find that offensive.

Claiming one mascot is more offensive than the next because of who created it is a tenuous position to hold, IMO--it leads to biting some big bullets.  "Redskins is racist.  Wait what?  Oh, so the guy who came up with the term had a Cherokee grandfather?  Oh...well, on second thought, it's actually not that racist."