Steve Taylor, Jr.

[terryk]

Is Steve Taylor, Jr. still on the team?  Several blow-outs--think he would play a minute or two.

[GGGG]

He's hurt.

[Tugg Speedman]

Knee problem ... talk of possible red-shirt this season

[Nukem2]

Not just the knee.  The quad muscles atrophied after surgery and they are slow in building back.  Would not be surprised at a redshirt.

[GooooMarquette]

Not just the knee.  The quad muscles atrophied after surgery and they are slow in building back.  Would not be surprised at a redshirt.

Yep.  I'll bet he's only in uniform in case of a major injury scenario at the 4-5 positions...and even then would be surprised to see him back.

[Norm]

Knee problem ... talk of possible red-shirt this season

Isn't it too late for Taylor to red-shirt as he's seen action in multiple games already?

[brewcity77]

Isn't it too late for Taylor to red-shirt as he's seen action in multiple games already?

The NCAA requirement is playing less than 30% of a team's games. They count D1 scrimmages and one game for a conference tourney. For Marquette, that is 34 games. Taylor has played in 10 (8 regular season and 2 scrimmages), which is just under the limit. He should be just eligible for a medical redshirt.

[The Equalizer]

Isn't it too late for Taylor to red-shirt as he's seen action in multiple games already?

Its not too late, but the injury has to be considered to be season-ending or incapacitating with doctors signing off.  

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation, from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes the student-athlete's inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with any hardship-waiver request. (Adopted: 4/20/99, Revised: 2/22/01)

If he's been suiting up, and supposedly even left the bench to check in against IUPUI before being called back, that would make it hard to claim that the medical documentation exists to support a redshirt.  

[GGGG]

Its not too late, but the injury has to be considered to be season-ending or incapacitating with doctors signing off. 

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation, from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes the student-athlete's inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with any hardship-waiver request. (Adopted: 4/20/99, Revised: 2/22/01)

If he's been suiting up, and supposedly even left the bench to check in against IUPUI before being called back, that would make it hard to claim that the medical documentation exists to support a redshirt. 

As I read it, if the medical doctor who did the surgery ("administered care") signs off that he can't compete because of the issues related to the surgery was done in the first place ("a result of that injury") then it seems like a no brainer.

I guess what I don't know is if someone *tries* to play after the injury, but clearly lacks something, does that count as incapacitated? 

[Windyplayer]

The NCAA requirement is playing less than 30% of a team's games. They count D1 scrimmages and one game for a conference tourney. For Marquette, that is 34 games. Taylor has played in 10 (8 regular season and 2 scrimmages), which is just under the limit. He should be just eligible for a medical redshirt.

Good stuff.

[wadesworld]

The NCAA requirement is playing less than 30% of a team's games. They count D1 scrimmages and one game for a conference tourney. For Marquette, that is 34 games. Taylor has played in 10 (8 regular season and 2 scrimmages), which is just under the limit. He should be just eligible for a medical redshirt.

And now we know why the Selection Committee takes scrimmages into consideration.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The NCAA requirement is playing less than 30% of a team's games. They count D1 scrimmages and one game for a conference tourney. For Marquette, that is 34 games. Taylor has played in 10 (8 regular season and 2 scrimmages), which is just under the limit. He should be just eligible for a medical redshirt.

Was this confirmed?  As mentioned yesterday, one of the articles I posted said scrimmages are not counted. 

[Lennys Tap]

Was this confirmed?  As mentioned yesterday, one of the articles I posted said scrimmages are not counted. 

Whether the scrimmages count or not is moot in this case - Either way (10 of 34 =29.5%, 8 of 32 =25%) he's under 30%.

[The Equalizer]

As I read it, if the medical doctor who did the surgery ("administered care") signs off that he can't compete because of the issues related to the surgery was done in the first place ("a result of that injury") then it seems like a no brainer.

I guess what I don't know is if someone *tries* to play after the injury, but clearly lacks something, does that count as incapacitated?  

I don't think it matters at this point whether Taylor is sitting out because he is aggrivating the original injury or whether it is something brand new.  

The question is whether that doctor considers his current situation season-ending and incapacitating.  

If the doctor says "I see no medical reason you can't play", and Buzz is benching him becuase he's not 100%, then according to the letter of the law, Taylor cannot redshirt, even though he has played in less than 30% of MU's scheduled games, or whatever the requirement is.

If the doctor says "I'm taking away the medical clearance to play, and his injury is going to end your season," then he can clearly redshirt.

My point in the post abovie was that if Taylor really was dressed and Buzz really tagged him to enter a game, it suggests that the doctors have not determined this is an incapacitating season-ending injury, which means the required medical documentation for a redshirt doesn't exist.
 
And comments like "'ll bet he's only in uniform in case of a major injury scenario at the 4-5 positions..." (which I know you didn't make--someone else did) are just not consistent with the rules.  You can't redshirt a player and then send in a supposedly incapacitated player simply becuase you suddenly need him.   This line of thinking would only apply to a freshman who hasn't yet played.

[brewcity77]

Was this confirmed?  As mentioned yesterday, one of the articles I posted said scrimmages are not counted. 

This was posted on the brewcityball.com board by IWB:

Gruman and I were trying to figure this out during the game. I had read the rule about the number of games, and it mentioned the scheduled scrimmages that replace games. It was unclear, so I got confirmation from NCAA rep that MU's scrimmages with Illinois State and Virginia counted as scheduled games. I did not know about the conference tourney counting as one - I like sitting with Gruman during games, I think we make a good team digging for info.

So.....

Steve has played in 8 games + 2 scrimmages. The season has 31 games + 1 conference tourney + 2 scrimmages. That equals 34. The rule is 30%. Sounds like he would have been ok, right? No - another part of that excludes the medical redshirt if the player comes back from the injury and then injures again, and that is where it gets tricky, defining when he was injured, and when it is considered 're-injured'.

Buzz had this to say post game - "I like to reward guys for hard work, and Steve has been working hard. I turned and saw him and sent him in. Chew asked me if I thought that was a good idea, and I called Steve back. I asked Chew what he thought. Steve said he would do whatever we asked him to do, so we sent him back."

Now this doesn't mean that Taylor will redshirt, what it means is that if they do decide to bypass the redshirt, it will be because he is healthy and because they need him, it won't be because they are rewarding him in the last 5 minutes of the IUPUI game.

So he meets the basic qualifications in terms of time played, the only question would be if he meets the qualifications in terms of injury timing.

[The Equalizer]

This was posted on the brewcityball.com board by IWB:

So he meets the basic qualifications in terms of time played, the only question would be if he meets the qualifications in terms of injury timing.

Well this story confirms there is currently no injury that would allow him to redshirt right now.  If Buzz was ready to put him in, then by definition he's not medically incapacitated.

In addition to the oft-discussed "30% rule", the NCAA rule is pretty clear that the injury has to result in incapacty to compete for the remainder of the season:
(b) The injury or illness occurs prior to the first competition of the second half of the playing season that con- cludes with the NCAA championship in that sport (see Bylaw 14.2.4.3.4) and results in incapacity to compete for the remainder of that playing season;

That means the only way Taylor could redshirt is if he suffers a season-ending injury before MU's game against Seton Hall on January 11th,  as long as he doesn't appear in another game between now and then (because one more game would put him over the 30% threshold and make him ineligible). 

[MU82]

My point in the post abovie was that if Taylor really was dressed and Buzz really tagged him to enter a game, it suggests that the doctors have not determined this is an incapacitating season-ending injury, which means the required medical documentation for a redshirt doesn't exist.
 
And comments like "'ll bet he's only in uniform in case of a major injury scenario at the 4-5 positions..." (which I know you didn't make--someone else did) are just not consistent with the rules.  You can't redshirt a player and then send in a supposedly incapacitated player simply becuase you suddenly need him.   This line of thinking would only apply to a freshman who hasn't yet played.

This is an excellent point. If the NCAA wants to be sticklers -- and usually they do -- couldn't they just say, "If he was so hurt, why was he at the table ready to check into one game? Why was he in uniform in other games?" It's a legitimate question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Whether the scrimmages count or not is moot in this case - Either way (10 of 34 =29.5%, 8 of 32 =25%) he's under 30%.

Correct, but I was curious as to what the proper ruling is.

[Marquette84]

Correct, but I was curious as to what the proper ruling is.

I think the rules are pretty clear that scrimmages count:

17.02.2 Contest. A contest is any game, match, exhibition, scrimmage or joint practice session with another institution's team, regardless of its formality, in which competition in a sport occurs between an intercollegiate athletics team or individual representing a member institution and any other team or individual not representing the intercollegiate athletics program of the same member institution. (Revised: 1/10/91)

[rocky_warrior]

I think the rules are pretty clear

whoa...equalizer no more

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the rules are pretty clear that scrimmages count:

17.02.2 Contest. A contest is any game, match, exhibition, scrimmage or joint practice session with another institution's team, regardless of its formality, in which competition in a sport occurs between an intercollegiate athletics team or individual representing a member institution and any other team or individual not representing the intercollegiate athletics program of the same member institution. (Revised: 1/10/91)

thank you

[Lennys Tap]

whoa...equalizer no more

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

[willie warrior]

This is an excellent point. If the NCAA wants to be sticklers -- and usually they do -- couldn't they just say, "If he was so hurt, why was he at the table ready to check into one game? Why was he in uniform in other games?" It's a legitimate question.

Of course then, that same question, if it is applicable, "Why was he in uniform in other games" would also apply to Du. Wilson, I would think that comparing the two situations, Wilson would definitely stand a better chance for a red shirt as he has not played in prior games, and his injury occurred this season. Not saying Wilson should be redshirted, but his case would look better.

At any rate, trying to figure some of these stupid rules the NCAA has is tough. Scrimmages count as games? Give me a break.

[GGGG]

Of course then, that same question, if it is applicable, "Why was he in uniform in other games" would also apply to Du. Wilson, I would think that comparing the two situations, Wilson would definitely stand a better chance for a red shirt as he has not played in prior games, and his injury occurred this season. Not saying Wilson should be redshirted, but his case would look better.

At any rate, trying to figure some of these stupid rules the NCAA has is tough. Scrimmages count as games? Give me a break.

Duane Wilson would not be medically redshirted.  He would simply be redshirted.

[GGGG]

I don't think it matters at this point whether Taylor is sitting out because he is aggrivating the original injury or whether it is something brand new. 

The question is whether that doctor considers his current situation season-ending and incapacitating. 

If the doctor says "I see no medical reason you can't play", and Buzz is benching him becuase he's not 100%, then according to the letter of the law, Taylor cannot redshirt, even though he has played in less than 30% of MU's scheduled games, or whatever the requirement is.

If the doctor says "I'm taking away the medical clearance to play, and his injury is going to end your season," then he can clearly redshirt.

I'm pretty sure Marquette's doctor is going to say he is incapacitated.