Studs Of The Game

[brewcity77]

So if they create 6-8 points of transition on the offensive end does that make up for allowing some blow-bys and missing assignments that give up 12-15 points on the defensive end?

[CTWarrior]

So if they create 6-8 points of transition on the offensive end does that make up for allowing some blow-bys and missing assignments that give up 12-15 points on the defensive end?

I don't know that those are the right numbers (pretty sure they're not), but there is a good chance that those 6-7 extras points plus a few more might be made up on the offensive end when the oppostion defense suddenly has to guard EVERYBODY.

I'm not saying JJJ and Burton would be better that the current starting pair, because how would I know?  I defer to the coach in such matters.  The starting backcourt is not getting the job done, though.

[brewcity77]

I don't know that those are the right numbers (pretty sure they're not), but there is a good chance that those 6-7 extras points plus a few more might be made up on the offensive end when the oppostion defense suddenly has to guard EVERYBODY.

I'm not saying JJJ and Burton would be better that the current starting pair, because how would I know?  I defer to the coach in such matters.  The starting backcourt is not getting the job done, though.

But it's a complete fallacy to assume that the players on the bench would get the job done. Just because you don't like the starter doesn't mean the backup is better. I remember Packers fans chanting for Blair Kiel back in the day. At no point did that make Blair Kiel the best QB on the roster. This is the exact same thing.

[Schmidtyfactor]

Who would win game of 1 on 1 between Jake Thomas and Brian Barone?

Tie game, 0-0

Barone would dribble recklessly all over the court with his head down until he stepped on the out of bounds line. And Jake wouldn't dribble the ball instead looking for someone to pass the ball to until he got a 5 second count.
Repeat until buzzer.

[NersEllenson]

But it's a complete fallacy to assume that the players on the bench would get the job done. Just because you don't like the starter doesn't mean the backup is better. I remember Packers fans chanting for Blair Kiel back in the day. At no point did that make Blair Kiel the best QB on the roster. This is the exact same thing.

What do you think Derrick Wilson's Quarterback Rating would be for the year?  40s?  50s?  I'm going to say Derrick Wilson is Blair Kiel - who knows if you have a Brett Farve or even Don Majikowski sitting on the bench in Dawson.  Hell Holmgren didn't put Farve ahead of Majikowski..and he got to see them every day in practice.  Majikowski gets hurt, and Farve takes over, and the team begins to roll....Majikowski never sees the field again.

We know what Derrick is - maybe some debate as to how good he is - as he has a few defenders - but his body of work suggests he is at best a back up, game manager point guard. 

Honestly, I'd love to see Derrick's highlight video of his play at MU thus far - don't think there'd be even 1 play where you think - wow, this guy is talented.  His game is as flat, boring, and ineffective as a point guard's game can get.

[GGGG]

What do you think Derrick Wilson's Quarterback Rating would be for the year?  40s?  50s?  I'm going to say Derrick Wilson is Blair Kiel - who knows if you have a Brett Farve or even Don Majikowski sitting on the bench in Dawson.  Hell Holmgren didn't put Farve ahead of Majikowski..and he got to see them every day in practice.  Majikowski gets hurt, and Farve takes over, and the team begins to roll....Majikowski never sees the field again.

One of the reasons he didn't start Favre from the beginning is because Favre had a very limited understanding of the offense.  Favre ended up winning a lot of games that year due to his sheer physical abilities versus his understanding of the game.

What would have happened had Majkowski not gotten hurt?  Would he have started Favre eventually anyway?  Who knows.

Perhaps this is what Buzz has in mind.  Maybe he will bring along Dawson eventually...maybe even starting this week.

But I think the fact that when Dawson did get into the game on Saturday, and I think he got in only due to Mayo's suspension, and he didn't even run the point, says something about his thoughts for Dawson.   I don't think he has the point guard equivalent of Brett Fave on his bench.

[NersEllenson]

One of the reasons he didn't start Favre from the beginning is because Favre had a very limited understanding of the offense.  Favre ended up winning a lot of games that year due to his sheer physical abilities versus his understanding of the game.

What would have happened had Majkowski not gotten hurt?  Would he have started Favre eventually anyway?  Who knows.

Perhaps this is what Buzz has in mind.  Maybe he will bring along Dawson eventually...maybe even starting this week.

But I think the fact that when Dawson did get into the game on Saturday, and I think he got in only due to Mayo's suspension, and he didn't even run the point, says something about his thoughts for Dawson.   I don't think he has the point guard equivalent of Brett Fave on his bench.

This is all fine and well, but he has the equivalent of Trent Dilfer (at best) as his starting point guard, yet I'd put Derrick more in the category of a a run of the mill second string quarterback.  He's a good, solid back up caliber PG at this level, good for 10 minutes of PT - not 35.

Maybe Dawson wouldn't do any better, but it's hard to fathom he would do worse - obviously I watch Dawson ridiculously close when he's in the game, and I do not recall 1 defensive lapse.  Perhaps there's been 1, but he hasn't shown bad at all on D (as you could say Burton has gotten burned a couple of times clearly)...

[GGGG]

This is all fine and well, but he has the equivalent of Trent Dilfer (at best) as his starting point guard, yet I'd put Derrick more in the category of a a run of the mill second string quarterback.  He's a good, solid back up caliber PG at this level, good for 10 minutes of PT - not 35.

Maybe Dawson wouldn't do any better, but it's hard to fathom he would do worse - obviously I watch Dawson ridiculously close when he's in the game, and I do not recall 1 defensive lapse.  Perhaps there's been 1, but he hasn't shown bad at all on D (as you could say Burton has gotten burned a couple of times clearly)...

And Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.  Replaced by Elvis Grbac the next year, and it all fell apart.

Look Buzz knows much more about basketball then either of us do.  He sees these guys every day.  I am sure there is a perfectly valid reason why he is doing what he is doing.  He has given plenty of minutes before to freshmen who understand what he wants and perform on the court.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This is all fine and well, but he has the equivalent of Trent Dilfer (at best) as his starting point guard, yet I'd put Derrick more in the category of a a run of the mill second string quarterback.  He's a good, solid back up caliber PG at this level, good for 10 minutes of PT - not 35.

Maybe Dawson wouldn't do any better, but it's hard to fathom he would do worse - obviously I watch Dawson ridiculously close when he's in the game, and I do not recall 1 defensive lapse.  Perhaps there's been 1, but he hasn't shown bad at all on D (as you could say Burton has gotten burned a couple of times clearly)...

I don't think Buzz wants Derrick to play 35+ min.

Unfortunately, nobody is good enough (yet) to step up and take some minutes from Derrick.

That's the only logical explanation, right?

Occam's razor, right?

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't think Buzz wants Derrick to play 35+ min.

Unfortunately, nobody is good enough (yet) to step up and take some minutes from Derrick.

That's the only logical explanation, right?

Occam's razor, right?

Of all the scholarship players on MU's roster, Dawson has played the fewest minutes and he's a PG, which is the team's thinnest position, yet when he's in the game, he doesn't even run the point. I believe that backs up your hypothesis.

[NersEllenson]

And Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.  Replaced by Elvis Grbac the next year, and it all fell apart.

Look Buzz knows much more about basketball then either of us do.  He sees these guys every day.  I am sure there is a perfectly valid reason why he is doing what he is doing.  He has given plenty of minutes before to freshmen who understand what he wants and perform on the court.

No, Trent Dilfer didn't win a Super Bowl - - he didn't lose one for the most dominant defense in the NFL for the last 25+ years!!  And fortunately in football, there are 2 distinct sides of the ball where different players play, unlike basketball - so it is very easy to quantify the overall impact a player makes defensively, and isolate that from offensive contribution...unlike basketball as the desperate Derrick Wilson defenders are trying to hang their hat on saying he's so good defensively.

But yes, I do agree Buzz knows much more about basketball than either one of us - yet I'm just going to have to chalk this one up to his eccentricities and that there is some method to his madness on this one...

[Windyplayer]

Most players get better as time goes on no doubt.  But that isn't necessarily because they play more in live games.  It's also because they practice more, get more physically and emotionally mature, understand what is expected of them.

The idea that you should play JJJ, etc. more because it will automatically pay dividends down the line is fool's gold.  It *might*...it might not...it may not make a difference at all.

This is just a bunch of hedging. This whole bird in the hand thing is better than a two in the bush is nonsense. The bird in the hand is unsightly and ill.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But yes, I do agree Buzz knows much more about basketball than either one of us - yet I'm just going to have to chalk this one up to his eccentricities and that there is some method to his madness on this one...

Maybe just chalk it up to Dawson isn't that good (yet)?

Seems more likely, right?

[NersEllenson]

Maybe just chalk it up to Dawson isn't that good (yet)?

Seems more likely, right?

Nope...from the limited PT I've seen of Dawson, he's good, and has game.  I fully believe this is Buzz trying to give his Vet, and a player he likes a lot from a character perspective, every chance in the world to take the position, and run with it.  Being loyal to almost a fault at this point.  I do suspect, however, that DW is on thin ice...he's played 1 good game out of 9 - ASU.  We need him to be better than a 1 good game, every 9, if he is going to continue to get 35 minutes of PT..

[ATL MU Warrior]

Nope...from the limited PT I've seen of Dawson, he's good, and has game.  I fully believe this is Buzz trying to give his Vet, and a player he likes a lot from a character perspective, every chance in the world to take the position, and run with it.  Being loyal to almost a fault at this point.  I do suspect, however, that DW is on thin ice...he's played 1 good game out of 9 - ASU.  We need him to be better than a 1 good game, every 9, if he is going to continue to get 35 minutes of PT..

Derrick wasn't good against Grambling?  Can you then please explain why he out-performed your boy in every single statistical category?  If Derrick wasn't good in that game, your guy really stunk the joint up.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nope...from the limited PT I've seen of Dawson, he's good, and has game.  I fully believe this is Buzz trying to give his Vet, and a player he likes a lot from a character perspective, every chance in the world to take the position, and run with it.  Being loyal to almost a fault at this point.  I do suspect, however, that DW is on thin ice...he's played 1 good game out of 9 - ASU.  We need him to be better than a 1 good game, every 9, if he is going to continue to get 35 minutes of PT..

Then I hope Buzz Williams is fired this afternoon.

If his loyalty runs so deep that he can't see he has a better option on the bench, then he needs to coach someplace else.

I'm ok with quirkiness, I'm not ok with playing Derrick 39min per game out of loyalty.

[CTWarrior]

Nope...from the limited PT I've seen of Dawson, he's good, and has game.  I fully believe this is Buzz trying to give his Vet, and a player he likes a lot from a character perspective, every chance in the world to take the position, and run with it.  Being loyal to almost a fault at this point.  I do suspect, however, that DW is on thin ice...he's played 1 good game out of 9 - ASU.  We need him to be better than a 1 good game, every 9, if he is going to continue to get 35 minutes of PT..

Ners, it cannot possibly just be loyalty.  I said this earlier in the thread, but loyalty would be something like playing him 25 minutes a game over a better player's 10-15 mpg.  When Buzz plays him 35+ mpg in tight games, he is in effect saying that he has no options he considers better than Derrick Wilson.  

[brewcity77]

What do you think Derrick Wilson's Quarterback Rating would be for the year?  40s?  50s?  I'm going to say Derrick Wilson is Blair Kiel - who knows if you have a Brett Farve or even Don Majikowski sitting on the bench in Dawson.

I'll tell you who knows. Buzz knows. Just like Holmgren knew what he had sitting on the bench in Favre. So if Dawson's not getting in, you only have one person to blame, and only one person that knows what he has there.

[NersEllenson]

Derrick wasn't good against Grambling?  Can you then please explain why he out-performed your boy in every single statistical category?  If Derrick wasn't good in that game, your guy really stunk the joint up.

Okay...we can split hairs - Derrick had 0 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 1 TO.  Dawson had 2 point, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 turnovers....

Not exactly a landslide for Derrick, the Junior in the program, compared to Dawson playing in his 6th through 26th minute of his college career.

But, if you want to call Derrick's line as a Junior in the program a good game - so be it - but Dawson's line was quite similar, and that's the only time we've gotten to see him run the point for extended PT.

[madtownwarrior]

So our top 75 in the country recruits are at a Blair Kiel quality level?   The recruiting services must have really missed on all of them...

But it's a complete fallacy to assume that the players on the bench would get the job done. Just because you don't like the starter doesn't mean the backup is better. I remember Packers fans chanting for Blair Kiel back in the day. At no point did that make Blair Kiel the best QB on the roster. This is the exact same thing.

[brewcity77]

Nope...from the limited PT I've seen of Dawson, he's good, and has game.  I fully believe this is Buzz trying to give his Vet, and a player he likes a lot from a character perspective, every chance in the world to take the position, and run with it.  Being loyal to almost a fault at this point.  I do suspect, however, that DW is on thin ice...he's played 1 good game out of 9 - ASU.  We need him to be better than a 1 good game, every 9, if he is going to continue to get 35 minutes of PT..

One game? See, that's your problem. You put blinders on when you watch the game. You decided preseason you didn't like Derrick, hell, maybe even last season, and you refuse to acknowledge what's right in front of you. You're calling a blue sky purple.

In the three games AFTER Arizona State, Derrick went 10/19 from the floor, 6/7 from the line, had 9 rebounds, 12 assists, and 6 turnovers. He was the best player on the floor for us in the first half against SDSU before he was injured. He posted higher offensive ratings against CSF and GW than he did against Grambling (which is STILL the game you reference when you glorify Dawson) and higher than Dawson has had in his entire short career. As good as Dawson was against Grambling, he was still a below average offensive player (92 rating). Oh, and Derrick went for a 126 that game. Why are you so willfully blind?

[GGGG]

Then I hope Buzz Williams is fired this afternoon.

Or at least hires Ners as his scouting service.

[NersEllenson]

One game? See, that's your problem. You put blinders on when you watch the game. You decided preseason you didn't like Derrick, hell, maybe even last season, and you refuse to acknowledge what's right in front of you. You're calling a blue sky purple.

In the three games AFTER Arizona State, Derrick went 10/19 from the floor, 6/7 from the line, had 9 rebounds, 12 assists, and 6 turnovers. He was the best player on the floor for us in the first half against SDSU before he was injured. He posted higher offensive ratings against CSF and GW than he did against Grambling (which is STILL the game you reference when you glorify Dawson) and higher than Dawson has had in his entire short career. As good as Dawson was against Grambling, he was still a below average offensive player (92 rating). Oh, and Derrick went for a 126 that game. Why are you so willfully blind?

Actually, I had high hopes for Derrick coming into this season.  He's actually been the biggest disappointment for me on this team.  

All I have to evaluate Dawson on is the Grambling game - his minutes have been sparse and limited since that game.  I just liked what I saw of Dawson's vision, acceleration, and overall fluidity in his game, compared to Derrick.  Derrick is very robotic - just a very limited upside.  See Dawson having a much higher ceiling, and feel Dawson is more important to the future of the team/program, than is Derrick..

[WarhawkWarrior]

Certainly the opponent guarding Derrick sags to the lane every time he has the ball on the perimeter because he doesn't worry about the shot.  It isn't that Derrick can't put up a respectable shot, he just doesn't shoot.  It also immediately creates another defender in the lane for rebounding and causing even harder chance for assists to our more than capable bigs. 

We just have to have more dynamic play outside.  Derrick and Jake are decent players in their own right but offer too much of the same.  We have a missing dimension.

[San Diego Warrior]

Certainly the opponent guarding Derrick sags to the lane every time he has the ball on the perimeter because he doesn't worry about the shot.  It isn't that Derrick can't put up a respectable shot, he just doesn't shoot.  It also immediately creates another defender in the lane for rebounding and causing even harder chance for assists to our more than capable bigs. 

We just have to have more dynamic play outside.  Derrick and Jake are decent players in their own right but offer too much of the same.  We have a missing dimension.

I think a big part is the starting offense which plays long stretches at the start of the game, and often start of the 2nd half is missing a couple of playmakers.  Derrick, Jake, Anderson, O'Tule can not (or at least don't) create a shot on their own, leaving our only offense to Jamil Wilson.  I haven't broken down tape, but it seems like that group is falling behind in the +/- quite a bit.  Putting Gardner, Mayo, or even Burton into that lineup would at least give some scoring balance to that group.   

The first five minutes of the game is just ugly offensively right now.