[Pain Touches] Marquette attendance second best in Big East

[Aughnanure]

Maybe I was thinking of Villanova or SJU. 

It's Nova.

[madtownwarrior]

The economy is a pretty big factor - I sit down low where you would think money is not a factor (I get there cause of a family connection), surprised how many of the nearby folks have either moved to upper deck seats or stopped all together due to the economy.

[Benny B]

Yeah - and I said I know the recession happened. But then it ended.

Tell that to the people who are still upside down on their homes.

[Jay Bee]

Overall trend for MU is troubling.

Has gone down every single year since 2007-2008 - every year of the Buzz era (not blaming this on Buzz - just framing the time span)

This despite 2 straight Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 appearance.

You can blame the first couple years on the recession, but its still trending down. What gives?

It's all reasonably explained. Not troubling. A thorough analysis reveals it's not as "bad" as it looks. PS-"Pain Touches" is back? Pawz.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

From my observation the student section has been as full as it has ever been. Its the non-students that seem to becoming less and less.

I know high attendance means more money for the program, but I would much rather play in a smaller stadium. Its so hard to really get the Bradley Center into a true raucous. The Al is way too small, but I would love to play in something in between.

[Jay Bee]

Trying to make a simple statement on reasons for attendance numbers doesn't usually work. There are many things at play, but nothing significant to worry about. I think the fan support heading into this season is great.

A few thoughts (could go on for days with this):
+ Remember, the Elite 8 happened at the end of the year. Using it as a reason why 2012-13 attendance should have been higher is silly.
+ 2010-11 - Nonconf average was 14,490 (vs. 13,978 in 2011-12 & 14,028 in 2012-13), however ex Wisconsin it was only 13,917 (2012-13 figure ex Wisc is 13,268). Great 2012-13 year for MU, but they started getting respected in the rankings late in the year.
+ 2010-11 NC – 22% of home games were on weeknights. One of those was worst attended of season, other was not because it was Green Bay.
+ 2011-12 NC – ranked team, yes. Similar nonconference results ex Wisc when compared to 2010-11. Why? One reason is more than half of their home games were on weeknights. Only sub-13,000 games were Monday nights – worst one being a 6pm CT start.
+ To be fair, some benefit to 2012-13 and 2011-12 vs. 2010-11 because of 7 NC games vs. 9. Certainly conference games are also at play in the numbers.
+ Conf games: 2012-13: 15,815; 2011-12: 16,040; 2010-11 16,682
+ 2010-11: Played only 3 non-tourney teams. Those included DePaul and the other two were weekend games. Also; 1/1 10am Saturday game actually wasn’t horribly attended.
+ 2011-12: Played 5 non-tourney teams. Worst game was vs. tourney team – but it was USF on a Tuesday. Had big crowds on weekends games.
+ 2012-13: Only 14,159 for New Year’s Day 7pm CT game vs. postseason-banned UCONN, with work looming the next day for many.
+ 2012-13: Played 5 non-tourney teams, including 3 on weekdays.
+ 2012-13: Averaged 17,157 in last four games (worked way into national rankings). [2011-12: 16,634 over last four; 2010-11: 17,003 over last four].

[Atticus]

You could pick apart many schedules of other teams, too.

[Brewtown Andy]

They are.  Last time we it was brought up the fans attributed low attendance to traffic and parking issues and their annual tournament choke jobs, among other things.

I would have thought Georgetown's standing as a national university (meaning their graduates don't stick around DC) would have more of an impact.

[warriorchick]

Tell that to the people who are still upside down on their homes.

Yeah - and the fact that it's referred to as a "jobless recovery".

[bilsu]

Eh, can we really expect 2,000 more fans on average based on family and friends. That's a little far-fetched.

I am not sure where you are getting 2000 fans from, but my statement was that the 414 group is the biggest reason for any attendance increase. Besides bringing in friends and family, MU without them would not be as good of a team and therefore less people would want to go to an MU game. Now, if MU's attendance increases by 2,000 I would not say that everyone is due to 414 group, but the majority are (1001+ out of 2000).

[hoyasincebirth]

Georgetown has a number of issues facing it in terms of attendance:

1) Georgetown is a national University most of our students do not stay in DC after graduation.

2) DC is a huge transplant city. Most people come to DC with other fanships already solidly in place. In addition since we're a small private school combined with point one means we play second fiddle to the university of Maryland. We're in ACC territory.

3) Due to the schools academic reputation we attract a larger percentage of students who have no interests in sports

4) DC is a major city with tons of other options( not saying milwaukee isn't but DC has more) In addition to NBA and MLB (Which milwaukee has) we have NFL, NHL and MLS franchises as well in addition to the multitude of non sport options: Smithsonian museums, the Kennedy Center, etc.

5) Lack of transportation to games for students. We used to bus students to games but that practice was stopped. It would definitely help out with attendance if they were able to bring it back.

6) Price. Many schools give their students free tickets. Georgetown students have to pay $125 for their student tickets which is obviously cheap compared to what season ticket holders pay, but not free. and the price of season tickets for alumni has been going up almost every year.

7) Opponents. The Hoyas always play a great OOC schedule. Unfortunately all our good games are almost always neutral site games either in tournaments or one off games. We get probably 1 decent home OOC game a year. Last year it was Tennessee. Remember how that game turned out?

8) Lack of postseason success. The constant flame outs in the tournament have really taken a toll. DC is a fair weather town. You can capture the interest of non affiliated fans when you're winning, but not when you're losing and unfortunately the average sport fan only cares about post season success and not regular season success.

9) Lack of Hype preseason. Despite performing well in the regular season the last few years and reaching he top 10 in the rankings at some point in every season since 2007 on 3 times since then have we been ranked in the top 25 to start the season. Georgetown usually starts off in the ARVs and then starts a slow methodical march to the top 10. There were no expectations from the media for Georgetown last year to drive ticket sales preseason. We had lost our top 3 scorers.

That being said our attendance is sad and embarrassing and I wish it was better. I do think post season success will increase our numbers back to it's 2007, 2008 levels.

[Coleman]

Trying to make a simple statement on reasons for attendance numbers doesn't usually work. There are many things at play, but nothing significant to worry about. I think the fan support heading into this season is great.

A few thoughts (could go on for days with this):
+ Remember, the Elite 8 happened at the end of the year. Using it as a reason why 2012-13 attendance should have been higher is silly.
+ 2010-11 - Nonconf average was 14,490 (vs. 13,978 in 2011-12 & 14,028 in 2012-13), however ex Wisconsin it was only 13,917 (2012-13 figure ex Wisc is 13,268). Great 2012-13 year for MU, but they started getting respected in the rankings late in the year.
+ 2010-11 NC – 22% of home games were on weeknights. One of those was worst attended of season, other was not because it was Green Bay.
+ 2011-12 NC – ranked team, yes. Similar nonconference results ex Wisc when compared to 2010-11. Why? One reason is more than half of their home games were on weeknights. Only sub-13,000 games were Monday nights – worst one being a 6pm CT start.
+ To be fair, some benefit to 2012-13 and 2011-12 vs. 2010-11 because of 7 NC games vs. 9. Certainly conference games are also at play in the numbers.
+ Conf games: 2012-13: 15,815; 2011-12: 16,040; 2010-11 16,682
+ 2010-11: Played only 3 non-tourney teams. Those included DePaul and the other two were weekend games. Also; 1/1 10am Saturday game actually wasn’t horribly attended.
+ 2011-12: Played 5 non-tourney teams. Worst game was vs. tourney team – but it was USF on a Tuesday. Had big crowds on weekends games.
+ 2012-13: Only 14,159 for New Year’s Day 7pm CT game vs. postseason-banned UCONN, with work looming the next day for many.
+ 2012-13: Played 5 non-tourney teams, including 3 on weekdays.
+ 2012-13: Averaged 17,157 in last four games (worked way into national rankings). [2011-12: 16,634 over last four; 2010-11: 17,003 over last four].

All good points. My statement wasn't implying that there aren't good reasons for the decline in attendance. There are. Just like this year, the new conference opponents and the loss of marquee matchups against the likes of ND, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, etc. are very valid reasons for a slight dip in attendance, should it happen (although the Elite 8 might offset this, we shall see). The recession was also a valid reason for a dip for a couple years. As is the general trend of college basketball attendance. My point was not to suggest that MU is somehow different than the rest of the country. I understand all that.

But that doesn't mean its still not somewhat troubling or frustrating. The point is that despite all of these headwinds, MU needs to find a way to keep attendance up. Period. If Creighton is pulling in 17,000+ per game, MU can find a way to do it.

That attitude is akin to a Fortune 500 CEO saying, well there are all of these other headwinds in the economy, so its ok if our stock goes down a little bit. A good CEO would have the attitude of recognizing these headwinds, find ways to address them, and exploit growth opportunities. Accepting the present state of decline is not the right approach.

[Galway Eagle]

Georgetown has a number of issues facing it in terms of attendance:

1) Georgetown is a national University most of our students do not stay in DC after graduation.

2) DC is a huge transplant city. Most people come to DC with other fanships already solidly in place. In addition since we're a small private school combined with point one means we play second fiddle to the university of Maryland. We're in ACC territory.

3) Due to the schools academic reputation we attract a larger percentage of students who have no interests in sports

4) DC is a major city with tons of other options( not saying milwaukee isn't but DC has more) In addition to NBA and MLB (Which milwaukee has) we have NFL, NHL and MLS franchises as well in addition to the multitude of non sport options: Smithsonian museums, the Kennedy Center, etc.

5) Lack of transportation to games for students. We used to bus students to games but that practice was stopped. It would definitely help out with attendance if they were able to bring it back.

6) Price. Many schools give their students free tickets. Georgetown students have to pay $125 for their student tickets which is obviously cheap compared to what season ticket holders pay, but not free. and the price of season tickets for alumni has been going up almost every year.

7) Opponents. The Hoyas always play a great OOC schedule. Unfortunately all our good games are almost always neutral site games either in tournaments or one off games. We get probably 1 decent home OOC game a year. Last year it was Tennessee. Remember how that game turned out?

8) Lack of postseason success. The constant flame outs in the tournament have really taken a toll. DC is a fair weather town. You can capture the interest of non affiliated fans when you're winning, but not when you're losing and unfortunately the average sport fan only cares about post season success and not regular season success.

9) Lack of Hype preseason. Despite performing well in the regular season the last few years and reaching he top 10 in the rankings at some point in every season since 2007 on 3 times since then have we been ranked in the top 25 to start the season. Georgetown usually starts off in the ARVs and then starts a slow methodical march to the top 10. There were no expectations from the media for Georgetown last year to drive ticket sales preseason. We had lost our top 3 scorers.

That being said our attendance is sad and embarrassing and I wish it was better. I do think post season success will increase our numbers back to it's 2007, 2008 levels.

4)  You clearly don't understand the effect the Greenbay Packers have on the state saying Milwaukee doesn't have an NFL team is like saying Boston doesn't have one because it's the New England Patriots now not the Boston Patriots. 

6)  I understand that's expensive but MU students had to pay $110 the past two years and that hasn't stopped us.  Unless those $15 is the difference between fans coming or not. 

7)  We are never ranked in the top 10 to start the season and still get fans. 

8)  We had good attendance numbers between our Final Four and 10-11 despite having a 5 flame outs and 2 NITs so unless GTown fans have loftier expectations I don't understand that. 

[Coleman]

4)  You clearly don't understand the effect the Greenbay Packers have on the state saying Milwaukee doesn't have an NFL team is like saying Boston doesn't have one because it's the New England Patriots now not the Boston Patriots.  

6)  I understand that's expensive but MU students had to pay $110 the past two years and that hasn't stopped us.  Unless those $15 is the difference between fans coming or not.  

7)  We are never ranked in the top 10 to start the season and still get fans.  

8)  We had good attendance numbers between our Final Four and 10-11 despite having a 5 flame outs and 2 NITs so unless GTown fans have loftier expectations I don't understand that.  

No need to be a turd, the guy admitted the numbers are sad and embarassing. What else do you want him to say?

[Galway Eagle]

No need to be a "turd" (come on who says that anymore?), the guy admitted the numbers are sad and embarrassing. What else do you want him to say?

I wasn't being a "turd" (really? Who says that?) I personally felt like at a certain point it crossed from admitting to making excuses that weren't valid.  After you shave those points off I accept everything he said.  

[Atticus]

Georgetown could put two sell-outs on the schedule if they wanted to play Maryland and Syracuse. Unfortunately for them, they would also be giving up home court advantage.

[Coleman]

I wasn't being a "turd" (really? Who says that?) I personally felt like at a certain point it crossed from admitting to making excuses that weren't valid.  After you shave those points off I accept everything he said.  

I do. Turd is one of my favorite words, as in, "a lot of Marquette fans in this forum giving reasons for MU's declining attendance are really polishing a turd"

[LloydMooresLegs]

I honestly think the availability of nearly every game on TV has been a bad thing for in-person attendance.  I live several hours' away so usually try to sell most of the weeknight games.  A few years ago, I could usually sell most- even non-conference - and often for face value or something close.  The last couple of seasons, it's hard to give tickets away for anything but a marquee opponent.

That said, MU's recent news about the drive for new season ticket holders sounds promising.  Hope it isn't offset by older ticket holders giving them up....

The ghost of Bill Wirtz agrees with you.

[swoopem]

Bleuteaux do you have season tickets and if so do you attend every game?

[GGGG]

The ghost of Bill Wirtz agrees with you.

Well done....

[GGGG]

4)  You clearly don't understand the effect the Greenbay Packers have on the state saying Milwaukee doesn't have an NFL team is like saying Boston doesn't have one because it's the New England Patriots now not the Boston Patriots. 

I once worked with a Canadian...big CFL fan.  This was during the era of their ill-fated expansion into the United States.  He was convinced that Milwaukee would be a great place for an expansion team because they don't have an NFL team of their own and therefore "have to root for the "Bears or Packers."

Sometimes people just don't get it.

[Coleman]

Bleuteaux do you have season tickets and if so do you attend every game?

I do have season tickets. I've had them every year since I was a freshman.

I live in the Chicago area. I do not physically attend every game. I'd say I get to 8-10 games every year. Every weekend game and a few more when I am able to leave work early.

Regardless, if I understand correctly, my attendance is counted every game, since its tickets sold and not butts in seats.

So I am not the problem.

[Benny B]

That attitude is akin to a Fortune 500 CEO saying, well there are all of these other headwinds in the economy, so its ok if our stock goes down a little bit. A good CEO would have the attitude of recognizing these headwinds, find ways to address them, and exploit growth opportunities. Accepting the present state of decline is not the right approach.

The ghost of early-80's Jack Welch agrees with you.  Present-day Jack Welch does not, however.

[hoyasincebirth]

I think the 2 main difference between marquette and Georgetown is 1) that marquette is more regional school with more alumni staying close to home. Georgetown will probably bring the most fans to MSG out of any program in the new BE with Cuse and Uconn gone. So many of our alums are in NYC and then spread across not only the country but globally as well with our emphasis on international relations. We have a huge alumni presence in London.

and 2) That DC is much more of a transplant city than Milwaukee is. Every school has a large alumni base in DC because people come from all over he country and the world to work here. Teams love playing in DC because they all have large alumni bases here beyond the local competition.

And I considered including the packers and NFL for Marquette and I should have, but we still have 2 additional professional sports franchises in the city and that's not counting the teams in Baltimore who many people in DC and the DC area are fans of so we have an additional baseball and NFL team to contend with for entertainment dollars.

[Litehouse]

I think the 2 main difference between marquette and Georgetown is 1) that marquette is more regional school with more alumni staying close to home.

You raise some valid points, and it's an interesting comparison since there are so many similarities.  For MU grads, I'd guess 1/3 end up somewhere around Milwaukee, 1/3 end up near Chicago, and 1/3 spread out elsewhere.  Comparing local markets, there's obviously a lot more to do in DC, but there's also a larger population base to draw from.  Also, I think you're underestimating the effect UW-Madison has on our local market vs. Maryland on yours.  I'd guess the Badgers take up more of the college sports media coverage in Milwaukee than the Terps do in DC.