Mascot woes at Butler and Georgetown

[GGGG]

Knights are offensive to English people, and Trojans are offensive to Turks.  Or is it not offensive because nobody in those ethnic groups seem to mind?

We will NEVER bring Warriors back, I'm 100% sure of it.  EVEN IF we had every Native American in the US AND Canada say that it's okay that MU uses Warriors, it's gone forever. 

Why is that?  Because even though that group may not find our use of it offensive, the perception generally is that it is racist.  See, North Dakota, for example.  Changed the Fighting Sioux name DESPITE the fact that the tribe said that they actually liked ND using it--they said it made the Sioux tribe proud and looked upon the mascot/name as a badge of honor.  In any case, it's no longer used because it simply makes the university appear racist, even though the supposed offended race is not offended whatsoever.

Actually there are multiple Sioux tribes and not all were for it.

[EnderWiggen]

Would Warrior be a bad ass mascot to have? Yes. But as of right now, its not going to happen. And its our own fault. Have you looked at how racist our mascot was back in the day? Willie Wampum is potentially, to this day, the most racist mascot this side of Chief Wahoo. I get it, back then we weren't as PC. But we continue to immortalize the racism by wearing our Willie Wampum memorabilia, by having our users names and profile pictures be Willie Wampum related, and blaming the tribes for standing up for themselves. The students carry this on too, every game there is at least one student in war paint and a headdress standing in the front row.

The tribes have repeatedly stated that the reason they don't want us using Warriors anymore is because they are afraid that alumni specifically will start bringing back some of the old racist traditions. Who can blame them? We still use some Native American imagery even though our mascot has nothing to do with Native Americans. If we change back to the Warriors, all of that could come back in force.

Are other mascots more racist than the Warriors? Absolutely. I mean Redskins? Seriously? But that doesn't give us permission to add to the hate. We are a Jesuit institution, we are supposed to be better than the rest.

I want to be the Warriors again and I think it can happen. First we need to prove that we are no longer glorifying our racist days of the past. Take down your pictures of Willie Wampum. Change your user names. Stop whining about how unfair the tribes are. And most importantly, acknowledge that our past actions were racist and will not be tolerated in the future.

If we do all that, may be the tribes would actually be comfortable with letting us use the Warriors with a knight or Trojan or something as our mascot.

Reading this, I could see some people take this as inflammatory or as a betrayal. Please keep an open mind. I want Warriors back as much as anybody. I just think the better strategy is to treat the tribes with respect rather than continually bashing them and the administration.

You just hit the nail on the head.  Does "Warriors" have to be racist?  Nope, but we sure as unnatural carnal knowledge made it racist and as such, we lost the privilege of using the name Warriors.  I know that sucks for alumn but it isn't changing.  

That said, Golden Eagles blows.

[wadesworld]

Would Warrior be a bad ass mascot to have? Yes. But as of right now, its not going to happen. And its our own fault. Have you looked at how racist our mascot was back in the day? Willie Wampum is potentially, to this day, the most racist mascot this side of Chief Wahoo. I get it, back then we weren't as PC. But we continue to immortalize the racism by wearing our Willie Wampum memorabilia, by having our users names and profile pictures be Willie Wampum related, and blaming the tribes for standing up for themselves. The students carry this on too, every game there is at least one student in war paint and a headdress standing in the front row.

The tribes have repeatedly stated that the reason they don't want us using Warriors anymore is because they are afraid that alumni specifically will start bringing back some of the old racist traditions. Who can blame them? We still use some Native American imagery even though our mascot has nothing to do with Native Americans. If we change back to the Warriors, all of that could come back in force.

Are other mascots more racist than the Warriors? Absolutely. I mean Redskins? Seriously? But that doesn't give us permission to add to the hate. We are a Jesuit institution, we are supposed to be better than the rest.

I want to be the Warriors again and I think it can happen. First we need to prove that we are no longer glorifying our racist days of the past. Take down your pictures of Willie Wampum. Change your user names. Stop whining about how unfair the tribes are. And most importantly, acknowledge that our past actions were racist and will not be tolerated in the future.

If we do all that, may be the tribes would actually be comfortable with letting us use the Warriors with a knight or Trojan or something as our mascot.

Reading this, I could see some people take this as inflammatory or as a betrayal. Please keep an open mind. I want Warriors back as much as anybody. I just think the better strategy is to treat the tribes with respect rather than continually bashing them and the administration.

That's the attitude! "We're Jesuit, so we're better than you!"

[Avenue Commons]

And nobody will touch the Blackhawks. That logo is too cool.

Blackhawks are named after one individual guy, Chief Blackhawk, who is held in esteem.

The Blackhawks' name is not a reference to an entire people and is certainly not derogatory.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It doesn't help when students are wearing "headdresses" that are shown on television.

Give them the Warriors name associated with a knight or spartan or something else, and that goes away very quickly.  They'll adopt the persona. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You just hit the nail on the head.  Does "Warriors" have to be racist?  Nope, but we sure as unnatural carnal knowledge made it racist and as such, we lost the privilege of using the name Warriors.  I know that sucks for alumn but it isn't changing.  

That said, Golden Eagles blows.

 

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7479527

[Avenue Commons]

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7479527

It comes down to respect. When the students wear headdresses or do the tomahawk chant I alternate between wanting to punch them and shaking my head at their lack of awareness that these actions are the root of the problem.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It comes down to respect. When the students wear headdresses or do the tomahawk chant I alternate between wanting to punch them and shaking my head at their lack of awareness that these actions are the root of the problem.

The Seminole tribe endorses the Tomahawk tribe....I guess not all tribes feel it is disrespectful.  Some might argue having a casino is, but to each their own.

[GGGG]

Give them the Warriors name associated with a knight or spartan or something else, and that goes away very quickly.  They'll adopt the persona. 

Eventually yes.  But everytime they dress like that now, it simply reinforces their decision.  They will never get there.

[mr.MUskie]

I've never understood how saying "We admire you so much that we want to name ourselves after you" is hateful or disrespectful or racist. 

[GGGG]

I've never understood how saying "We admire you so much that we want to name ourselves after you" is hateful or disrespectful or racist. 

It's not the naming that was the problem.  It's the imagery. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I've never understood how saying "We admire you so much that we want to name ourselves after you" is hateful or disrespectful or racist. 

Think about it this way, would you consider it respectful if you named a team the Africans and everyone wore blackface to the games? Its the same as naming a team after a native american tribe and wearing war paint or headdresses. We've simply been naming teams after native americans for so long that we've normalized it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Knights are offensive to English people, and Trojans are offensive to Turks.  Or is it not offensive because nobody in those ethnic groups seem to mind?

Knights are a profession, not a people. Trojans were residents of a single city, not an entire race. Also, there were knights in several cultures and Trojans are long extinct. I would argue that the Brits could be offensive, or the Turks, but not the knights or the Trojans.

Knights are offensive to English
We will NEVER bring Warriors back, I'm 100% sure of it.  EVEN IF we had every Native American in the US AND Canada say that it's okay that MU uses Warriors, it's gone forever. 

Maybe true. What I have heard in the past is that during the 2003 Gold debaucle, the administration sincerely looked into returning the Warriors but the tribes said no. If they had given the blessing, I think we would be the Warriors again.

Why is that?  Because even though that group may not find our use of it offensive, the perception generally is that it is racist.  See, North Dakota, for example.  Changed the Fighting Sioux name DESPITE the fact that the tribe said that they actually liked ND using it--they said it made the Sioux tribe proud and looked upon the mascot/name as a badge of honor.  In any case, it's no longer used because it simply makes the university appear racist, even though the supposed offended race is not offended whatsoever.

North Dakota changed because the NCAA said it wasn't ok. They were banned from hosting postseason events and using their mascot at away postseason events. There is also potential talk of harsher penalties in the future. It was a pre-emptive move.

The other difference is that they used an actual race as their mascot. We are using a profession. If we completely changed the imagery, I think we could avoid bad publicity...but who knows.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's the attitude! "We're Jesuit, so we're better than you!"

We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Better?

[Dawson Rental]

Since we can't go back to Warriors, we should go with Worriers... at least it would fit for most of the people on this board.

Blackhawks are named after one individual guy, Chief Blackhawk, who is held in esteem.

The Blackhawks' name is not a reference to an entire people and is certainly not derogatory.

These two posts gave me an idea.  Let's get around the problem by naming our mascot after an individual whose name represents most MU fans who post on Scoop, myself included, Sitting Bull.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

Man that is one big crock of PC jargon. There is no "hate" or "racism" in warrior as you stipulate. People can remember the Marquette Warriors without any thought of racism or hate. Then the PC Warriors begin to dictate to others their agenda, and make it into something that is not real.

No kidding. Thanks, Obama.

[GGGG]

No kidding. Thanks, Obama.

Uh....

[Avenue Commons]

The Seminole tribe endorses the Tomahawk tribe....I guess not all tribes feel it is disrespectful.  Some might argue having a casino is, but to each their own.

Tomahawk chant. Atlanta Braves, etc.

Not Tomahawk tribe.

[GoldenZebra]

We are the golden eagles, get over it already. Sheesh.

[real chili 83]

We are the golden eagles, get over it already. Sheesh.

No, we are not.

We are Warriors.

[real chili 83]

I'm surprised no one brought up the payoff yet from the Native American trines to MU.

[BrewCity83]

Probably because it's never been made public. 

[augoman]

many of us will always be warriors..., many of our college memories are of the drums beating and the fans doing the 'thunderclap' while Dean 'the dream' drove the offense.  I still remember the article in Sports Illustrated where an opposing coach talked of how hard it was to play at the arena "...and the drums, those damn drums!".  
I also remember Hank Raymonds polling representatives of the 5 major tribes in Wisconsin and they unanimously stated they took NO offense by the Warriors.  In spite of this we changed to the 'First' Warrior.  It was a one man vote by Fr. DiUlio to drop the Warriors.  All the previous pc stuff is crap.

[Dawson Rental]

Not a good time for bulldogs, it seems. At Butler, the mascot has heart problems:

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daXrG?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=big-east-basketball

At Georgetown, the mascot didn't pass the probation period:

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daX8X?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=big-east-basketball

"I did not see this coming," said the head of the student group that cares for the mascot.

Yeah, well, pay attention next time.

What do they call Creaning/Buzzcutting at Georgetown?