Big East vs others by decade

[Aughnanure]

Is there a reason you go straight to insulting when you enter a conversation? Did someone hurt you as a child? You can feel safe to talk about it.  But please make a case why a team with no championships, less final fours, terrible recent history, less overall tournament bids, less sweet 16s less elite 8s would be invited over us for anything other than NYC market. 

Well you can't argue on your own terms and just eliminate being in NYC. That's a HUGE part of why they have so much potential. St. John's was a power in the 80s and 90s. So what that they we're down now? So were we. But they have as good a chance as any chance, and maybe even greater, of becoming the type of nationally prominent brand in basketball we need.

Johnnies have the history and pedigree to be considered a blue blood if they start becoming very successful. But the success is key.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Well you can't argue on your own terms and just eliminate being in NYC. That's a HUGE part of why they have so much potential. St. John's was a power in the 80s and 90s. So what that they we're down now? So were we. But they have as good a chance as any chance, and maybe even greater, of becoming the type of nationally prominent brand in basketball we need.

Johnnies have the history and pedigree to be considered a blue blood if they start becoming very successful. But the success is key.

Exactly.  Well put. 

[Galway Eagle]

Well you can't argue on your own terms and just eliminate being in NYC. That's a HUGE part of why they have so much potential. St. John's was a power in the 80s and 90s. So what that they we're down now? So were we. But they have as good a chance as any chance, and maybe even greater, of becoming the type of nationally prominent brand in basketball we need.

Johnnies have the history and pedigree to be considered a blue blood if they start becoming very successful. But the success is key.

Market has nothing to do with being a flagship program nobody recently talked about SJU being flagship in the old BE it was UConn cuse ville etc.  so I'm not arguing on my terms I'm arguing a purely basketball point I'm not stupid to argue that Milwaukee is comparable to NYC in any way (except our beer is better).  But let me try to put this another way DePaul has great history, has arguably the only market comparable to NYC, has just about the same amount of pure tournament success as SJU (2 to 3) but if nobody is going to say they could be a blue blood because of how bad they recently have been and to me SJU hasn't been much better. 

[Galway Eagle]

Exactly.  Well put. 

Do you only insult those you disagree with? Not very mature.   

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Market has nothing to do with being a flagship program

Of course it does.

But let me try to put this another way DePaul has great history, has arguably the only market comparable to NYC, has just about the same amount of pure tournament success as SJU (2 to 3) but if nobody is going to say they could be a blue blood because of how bad they recently have been and to me SJU hasn't been much better.  

DePaul has nowhere near the history or cache of St. Johns.  St. John's recent history has been MUCH better than DePaul's.  I mean, if you are 22 years old, St. John's has been to two Elite 8s in your lifetime, has won the BET once, and the conference outright once.  (That's as many Elite 8s as MU has been to in your lifetime BTW.)

Do you only insult those you disagree with? Not very mature.  

Thanks mom.

[Galway Eagle]

Of course it does.


DePaul has nowhere near the history or cache of St. Johns.  St. John's recent history has been MUCH better than DePaul's.  I mean, if you are 22 years old, St. John's has been to two Elite 8s in your lifetime, has won the BET once, and the conference outright once.  (That's as many Elite 8s as MU has been to in your lifetime BTW.)


Thanks mom.

Ok so in the horizon league UIC is the flagship program? And in the A10 all the philly schools are the flagships.  And in the ACC Miami is the flagship program according to your idea that its all about the market.

Regarding SJU in the tournament you neglected to realize that I would have been 9 for their second elite 8 (more concerned with what was going to happen on Pokemon than march madness) and march comes before April so my 22yr old self wasnt watching their 1991 run.  Also Final 4 + elite 8 > 2 elite 8s so great we've been to as many elite 8s we won one of them though.  

Regarding DePaul vs St. John's I thought Depaul had more tournament appearances than they do evidently though it's not exactly "nowhere near" like you say, Depaul has a better percentage at getting to the second weekend than SJU, has the same amount of final fours and has more Sweet 16s.  Yes SJU is overall better though I'll admit that. 

I'm not acting like your mom.  Sorry for expecting a little more manners from fellow MU alums/students/fans/faculty/affiliates rather than stupid childlike responses like the one you gave. 

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Ok so in the horizon league UIC is the flagship program? And in the A10 all the philly schools are the flagships.  And in the ACC Miami is the flagship program according to your idea that its all about the market.

I didn't say it was "all about the market."

Regarding SJU in the tournament you neglected to realize that I would have been 9 for their second elite 8 (more concerned with what was going to happen on Pokemon than march madness) and march comes before April so my 22yr old self wasnt watching their 1991 run. 

It's all about you huh?  If *you* don't remember it, then apparently it's irrelevant.  You completely lack in any sort of historical perspective.

Regarding DePaul vs St. John's hold on one second because I'm on my phone and don't want to look up a bunch of stuff on it. 

Don't bother.

[Galway Eagle]

I didn't say it was "all about the market."


It's all about you huh?  If *you* don't remember it, then apparently it's irrelevant.  You completely lack in any sort of historical perspective.


Don't bother.

Not all about me but when you blatently said, "if you are 22 years old, St. John's has been to two Elite 8s in your lifetime" then I would say you made it about me.  

Ok so it's not all about the market then. I'm still waiting for your argument as to why the ACC would invite SJU over us.   

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Not all about me but when you blatently said, "if you are 22 years old, St. John's has been to two Elite 8s in your lifetime" then I would say you made it about me. 

I was giving you a frame of reference to compare with DePaul.

[Galway Eagle]

I was giving you a frame of reference to compare with DePaul.

I see, my apologies for misinterpreting that.  See manners on this board are a thing. 

[bilsu]

Of course it does.


DePaul has nowhere near the history or cache of St. Johns.  St. John's recent history has been MUCH better than DePaul's.  I mean, if you are 22 years old, St. John's has been to two Elite 8s in your lifetime, has won the BET once, and the conference outright once.  (That's as many Elite 8s as MU has been to in your lifetime BTW.)


Thanks mom.

A little perspective here. Potential recruits are 17 years old and they do not remember their fist 5 years of life, so to them at the most the last 12 years matters and it is probably somewhere in the range of 8 to 10 years that they have been following college basketball. They of course could be influence by their father who would have a longer history of following college basketball, but really only the last few years matters. You see that now in Wisconsin with more recruits becoming MU fans vs UW fans. 5 years ago it was the other way around as UW had been more succesful in their lifetime of following college basketball.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

A little perspective here. Potential recruits are 17 years old and they do not remember their fist 5 years of life, so to them at the most the last 12 years matters and it is probably somewhere in the range of 8 to 10 years that they have been following college basketball. They of course could be influence by their father who would have a longer history of following college basketball, but really only the last few years matters. You see that now in Wisconsin with more recruits becoming MU fans vs UW fans. 5 years ago it was the other way around as UW had been more succesful in their lifetime of following college basketball.

But what 17 year olds think isn't really what makes a university a "flagship university."  With that mindset, Marquette would have never recovered.

[Galway Eagle]

But what 17 year olds think isn't really what makes a university a "flagship university."  With that mindset, Marquette would have never recovered.

Ok I only want to know what you think a flagship university is.  Please give us your definition and explain what schools fall under that. 

[Aughnanure]

A little perspective here. Potential recruits are 17 years old and they do not remember their fist 5 years of life, so to them at the most the last 12 years matters and it is probably somewhere in the range of 8 to 10 years that they have been following college basketball. They of course could be influence by their father who would have a longer history of following college basketball, but really only the last few years matters. You see that now in Wisconsin with more recruits becoming MU fans vs UW fans. 5 years ago it was the other way around as UW had been more succesful in their lifetime of following college basketball.

A 17-year old's perception is not simply a blank state. It is still heavily influenced by the media.

[bilsu]

A 17-year old's perception is not simply a blank state. It is still heavily influenced by the media.

That is true and he has had plenty of opportunity to see MU and Buzz on TV and hear Buzz talk on the radio. Not everyone is going to like Buzz, but I think most teenagers would fine him interesting. Certianly more interesting than Bo. I suspect most teenagers thought it was funny when Buzz was dancing at West Virginia and watched it on the internet more than once. Heck, even the Bradley Center bat probably got MU a lot of recognition on the internet. Internet visability is more impactful than what the newspapers print, which most teenagers and even adults do not read.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Ok I only want to know what you think a flagship university is.  Please give us your definition and explain what schools fall under that. 

A blend of history, fan support, market size and performance.

[Galway Eagle]

A blend of history, fan support, market size and performance.

And based off your criteria what are the flagship programs?

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

And based off your criteria what are the flagship programs?

In the NBE?

Georgetown, Nova, SJU and Marquette.


Throughout college basketball history?

UCLA, Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas, Duke and Indiana.

[hoyasincebirth]

Georgetown's national perception? Choking in the ncaa tourney?

People in DC dont even care about Georgetown.

Georgetown's TV ratings blow everyone else in the conference's out of the water. Georgetown is a big draw every where in the country. We're a national program. We're not a blue blood but were in the next tier.

In ESPN's 2012 50 in 50 series Georgetown was listed as the #12 program in the last 50 years: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/50-in-50-series (Nova 16, Marquette 17, Xavier 34, St. John's 40, DePaul 45)

In their 2008 series of the most prestigious programs since 1985 Georgetown came in 10th: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3501739 (Xavier 17, Nova 31, STJ 36, Butler 47, Seton Hall 51, Creighton 59, Marquette 61, DePaul 95, Providence 111)

In their Path to the Draft series Georgetown was named the #2 program: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/path-to-the-draft-2013 (No other BE teams in the 20 team list)

So um yeah we're kind of a big deal.

Marquette is the most successful team of the new BE over the last 5 years: 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16, 1 BE Championship But if you extend it to 8 years: Georgetown has 1 Final 4, 1 sweet 16, 3 BE championships, and 1 BET title, while Marquette does not add anything to their total.

You also Realize that over the 5 year period prior to your great 3 year run you had 5 straight years of failing to reach the second weekend with 3 of them being losses in the first round. So a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black( and yes you weren't as highly seeded as Georgetown has been but you were the higher seed in all 3 of those first round loses)

[Galway Eagle]

Georgetown's TV ratings blow everyone else in the conference's out of the water. Georgetown is a big draw every where in the country. We're a national program. We're not a blue blood but were in the next tier.

In ESPN's 2012 50 in 50 series Georgetown was listed as the #12 program in the last 50 years: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/50-in-50-series (Nova 16, Marquette 17, Xavier 34, St. John's 40, DePaul 45)

In their 2008 series of the most prestigious programs since 1985 Georgetown came in 10th: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3501739 (Xavier 17, Nova 31, STJ 36, Butler 47, Seton Hall 51, Creighton 59, Marquette 61, DePaul 95, Providence 111)

In their Path to the Draft series Georgetown was named the #2 program: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/path-to-the-draft-2013 (No other BE teams in the 20 team list)

So um yeah we're kind of a big deal.

Marquette is the most successful team of the new BE over the last 5 years: 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16, 1 BE Championship But if you extend it to 8 years: Georgetown has 1 Final 4, 1 sweet 16, 3 BE championships, and 1 BET title, while Marquette does not add anything to their total.

You also Realize that over the 5 year period prior to your great 3 year run you had 5 straight years of failing to reach the second weekend with 3 of them being losses in the first round. So a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black( and yes you weren't as highly seeded as Georgetown has been but you were the higher seed in all 3 of those first round loses)

For the record I redid the points on espn's 50 for 50 to include last years results and Marquette overtook villanova at no16.  Also (not taking away from GTown at all) but who says 8years go by 10 or 5 nobody is going to say "ya but what have you done the past 8 years" so Marquette has 1FF 1E8 2S16 5 first weekends 2 nits

[hoyasincebirth]

For the record I redid the points on espn's 50 for 50 to include last years results and Marquette overtook villanova at no16.  Also (not taking away from GTown at all) but who says 8years go by 10 or 5 nobody is going to say "ya but what have you done the past 8 years" so Marquette has 1FF 1E8 2S16 5 first weekends 2 nits

no one I suppose so go by 10 years, Georgetown is still arguably better because you don't get that Final 4 that was 11 seasons ago. And no one says what have you done the past 11 years 

[Galway Eagle]

no one I suppose so go by 10 years, Georgetown is still arguably better because you don't get that Final 4 that was 11 seasons ago. And no one says what have you done the past 11 years 

touché haha

[Atticus]

Nice. Way to fly off the handle, hoya. Where in my post did i compare MU to GU? Can u point it out to me in case i overlooked that? Thanks.

For a metro area with over 6(?)M people, your attendance isnt that great. How many sell-outs does GU average per season? I think u sell out games against SU...but it likes on tv like they bring the upper deck. UM used to be a sell-out...but they also brought most of the fans. Maybe UL? Again, they travel well, too. A good indication of local enthusiasm for a team is attendance during the OCC portion of the schedule.

Also, why do people quote espn.com lists as thoigh they are taken from the sports bible? Never understood why fans pay so muh attention to lists. Maybe its an offseason thing...

[hoyasincebirth]

Nice. Way to fly off the handle, hoya. Where in my post did i compare MU to GU? Can u point it out to me in case i overlooked that? Thanks.

For a metro area with over 6(?)M people, your attendance isnt that great. How many sell-outs does GU average per season? I think u sell out games against SU...but it likes on tv like they bring the upper deck. UM used to be a sell-out...but they also brought most of the fans. Maybe UL? Again, they travel well, too. A good indication of local enthusiasm for a team is attendance during the OCC portion of the schedule.

Also, why do people quote espn.com lists as thoigh they are taken from the sports bible? Never understood why fans pay so muh attention to lists. Maybe its an offseason thing...

because we're a national university. Most of our alums live outside the DC area. That's why we draw so well around the country and on TV. Of the remaining BE teams we're the team that will put the most fans in the seats at opponents gyms. Our home attendance certainly could be better, but DC is such a transplant city with people moving there after they already have their own sports commitments that it's a lot harder than in Milwaukee.

[frozena pizza]

Ancient history doesn't matter to recruits and being in a major media market doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to.  In fact, I think most recruits would rather be in a smaller market where college basketball is the best show in town (Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, Syracuse).

Finally, what really matters is national championships and there's only one team in the NBE that has made a national championship appearance recent enough to be relevant to a recruit.  Butler has been there twice and very nearly won.  If they can be successful post Stevens there's no reason they can't be a flagship program too.