Florida, Florida, Florida

[mu03eng]

IF what you're purporting is actually what had happened, then I don't think anyone would be disagreeing with you.  The problem is the facts and the testimony do not support the implication you're making with reference to Zimmerman's mindset.

What if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun.  What if Zimmerman happened to be an elite MMA fighter and landed a blow that was either directly or indirectly fatal?  Would you then argue that anyone with any sort of military, martial arts, boxing, or hand-to-hand combat training is not allowed to follow or observe a suspicious person in his/her neighborhood under any circumstances?

That's what got Cameron Poe thrown in prison for protecting his pregnant wife, just sayin'   

[Pakuni]

He had marijuana in his system.....look at some of the side effects for marijuana, which include paranoia.  Does that matter?  Was he paranoid?  Sure sounded like it with his girlfriend.  Classic marijuana side effect.

Yeah, dude, he was paranoid from the pot he smoked weeks ago. The fact a strange guy was following him at night had nothing to do with it.
And why do you continue to lie about him being high that night? The facts there are not in dispute, yet you continue to lie about it.

Whether it's publicly stating his desire to make lean or purple drank,

Still waiting for a legit source on that.

whether it's publicly posting videos trying to get an illegal gun, whether it's attacking GZ....all goes to his mental process and his ability to make rational decisions.  So no, there is no red herring, it's a pattern of poor choices, poor behaviors...exactly the thing that led to his death because he though it would be a good idea to take on a crazy ass cracker when he was only 70 yards from his home and should have just gone home.  Tragic, but that's all it would have taken.

You obviously don't know what a red herring is.
And, for the millionth time, there is no evidence outside of Zimmerman's statement (not that he would ever lie) that TM attacked anyone. All the circumstantial evidence - including Zimmerman's first 911 call - indicates TM was trying to evade Zimmerman, not engage him.
You have a terrible habit in this thread of making up facts.

Instead we have people here that are actually wanting others to believe that GZ called the cops before the incident and then intentionally shot this kid, and then asked one witness to call the cops again.  

Uhhh ... who said that?

Here's just ONE screenshot of his account...his words, not mine.  This appeared in the NY Times online version, among many other places.  No anarchist, just his words.....if the libertarian Canadian radio show host got it right (which he did), then that's all that needs to be said.

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=672&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=AUPwUbX6OsjwiwL9w4GoDw&q=trayvon+martin+twitter+screenshot+lean&oq=trayvon+martin+twitter+screenshot+lean&gs_l=img.3...14120.14725.0.14992.5.5.0.0.0.0.130.420.2j3.5.0....0...1c.1.22.img..5.0.0.kfajZ0XFrEM#biv=i%7C18%3Bd%7CxL0DOIVklFTXtM%3A

There's no screenshot there about lean. Try again.
The only thing I've been able to find about this is a claim by a white supremacist who says he hacked TM's Facebook and found him talking about lean.
So, yeah, there's that.

There are other screen shots of his other postings, photos, etc.  Isn't it interesting that the media was able to post a nice shot of him when he was 12 years old, was able to edit Zimmerman's 911 call to make him look racist, posted a picture of GZ that made him look like the evil, plodding killer but all of these details were left out.  Hmmm.  One wonders if GZ had these facebook and twitter postings if the national media would carry them?  One wonders if GZ openly talked about lean and purple drank, was high on  marijuana if it would be reported that he was simply getting candy and ice tea (not Skittles and a specific drink to mix into a codeine cocktail).  Yes, one wonders.  

So, then, you are a conspiracy nut.

[ChicosBailBonds]

others have posted that the amount in his system was very small likely from several days before type small, that would have not have made him paranoid, people only get paranoid if they are complaetely baked at the time

Each person different, each person reacts differently.  One beer puts some youngsters over the edge, to a big fat guy is does nothing.  Recency, size of person, experience with the drug, etc, all factor into it.

Let's cut to the chase that if the same amount was found in GZ's system, it would be headline 1A. 

[Benny B]

That's what got Cameron Poe thrown in prison for protecting his pregnant wife, just sayin'   

I was going to make a Con Air reference, but I didn't want to hijack the thread into a discussion as to why that movie almost killed Nic Cage's career.

[Pakuni]

Each person different, each person reacts differently.  One beer puts some youngsters over the edge, to a big fat guy is does nothing.  Recency, size of person, experience with the drug, etc, all factor into it.

Let's cut to the chase that if the same amount was found in GZ's system, it would be headline 1A. 

No, Chico's, no.
A person who smoked pot several days ago is not walking around today feeling paranoid. It doesn't work that way. Stop making stuff up.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

IF what you're purporting is actually what had happened, then I don't think anyone would be disagreeing with you.  The problem is the facts and the testimony do not support the implication you're making with reference to Zimmerman's mindset.

What if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun.  What if Zimmerman happened to be an elite MMA fighter and landed a blow that was either directly or indirectly fatal?  Would you then argue that anyone with any sort of military, martial arts, boxing, or hand-to-hand combat training is not allowed to follow or observe a suspicious person in his/her neighborhood under any circumstances?

I guess it depends how it all went down. I know you can't leave your fists at home, so it's hard to blame somebody for defending himself (with his fists). Plus, in theory, an MMA fighter or trained combat veteran would be far more trained for this scenario than George and his gun permit.

The whole thing starts (for me) with 2 things:

#1 Zimmerman actively decided to arm himself with a firearm, and go out looking for potential criminals.
#2 When Zimmerman saw what he erroneously considered a "suspect", he followed that "suspect" without identifying himself as the neighborhood watch and/or declaring his intentions. (no uniform, no bright yellow jacket, etc.)

I have a hard time calling it self defense, when he had a LOT of options to avoid engagement.

[ATWizJr]

Martin was walking home. He wasn't out looking for Zimmerman.

Zimmerman armed himself, and went out looking for potential criminals. He followed, engaged, and ultimately fired upon an unarmed man.

I have a hard time calling that self defense. I know it's all "legal", but that's what I find concerning. I don't like the way the laws are written or interpreted.

Zimmerman observed a stranger in his neighborhood who eventually attacked him.  I'd say he was lucky to be armed and Martin picked on the wrong guy.

[ATWizJr]

See ... I can speculate, too.

Zimmerman didn't attack Martin because he looked suspicious, as you fantasize.  He fought back to defend himself as has been established in a court of law.  Your "speculation" is too cute by, well, a large margin.

[Pakuni]

Zimmerman didn't attack Martin because he looked suspicious, as you fantasize.  He fought back to defend himself as has been established in a court of law.  Your "speculation" is too cute by, well, a large margin.

No, that's not what's been established in a court of law.
Perhaps you should learn how the criminal justice system works before commenting on it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Zimmerman observed a stranger in his neighborhood who eventually attacked him.  I'd say he was lucky to be armed and Martin picked on the wrong guy.

The kid was local. Feet from his house. He's not a stranger in the neighborhood.

If George didn't know him, he should have clearly ID'd himself to the kid and declared his intentions. Cops do it everyday. They wear a uniform. They ride in a squad car. They wear a badge.

"Hey kid, I'm George, I'm with neighborhood watch, what are you doing out here? Do you live around here? Can I help you?"

The idea is crime PREVENTION, not criminal APPREHENSION.

[Benny B]

No, that's not what's been established in a court of law.
Perhaps you should learn how the criminal justice system works before commenting on it.

I nominate Pakuni for Scoop's Semantic Watch Captain.

[Pakuni]

I nominate Pakuni for Scoop's Semantic Watch Captain.

You're abdicating?

[Lennys Tap]

The kid was local. Feet from his house. He's not a stranger in the neighborhood.

He was not local. He was "temporarily" staying there, I think with his aunt.

[Pakuni]

He was not local. He was "temporarily" staying there, I think with his aunt.

His parents are divorced. Mom lives near Miami, dad in Sanford. Mom had primary custody, but he wasn't a newcomer/stranger to Sanford.

[reinko]

"Hey kid, I'm George, I'm with neighborhood watch, what are you doing out here? Do you live around here? Can I help you?"

This sentence could have saved a young man's life.

   But too bad,  he got pissed at a stranger following him back to his aunts house, and he smoked weed 3 weeks before he died and he asked about drugs on his Facebook page months ago,  so yeah,  he is an idiot, and caused his own death.

[Eldon]

The kid was local. Feet from his house. He's not a stranger in the neighborhood.

If George didn't know him, he should have clearly ID'd himself to the kid and declared his intentions. Cops do it everyday. They wear a uniform. They ride in a squad car. They wear a badge.

"Hey kid, I'm George, I'm with neighborhood watch, what are you doing out here? Do you live around here? Can I help you?"

The idea is crime PREVENTION, not criminal APPREHENSION.

+1

I gotta say, Guns is one of my favorite Scoopers--strives for objectivity and is always unassuming.  I second every comment he has made so far.

[Lennys Tap]

His parents are divorced. Mom lives near Miami, dad in Sanford. Mom had primary custody, but he wasn't a newcomer/stranger to Sanford.

 I never said he was a "newcomer". I never said he was a "stranger". I said he wasn't a local. He wasn't - I said he was staying there temporarily. He was. I said I thought it was with his aunt. If it was with his father I stand corrected on that minor, non germane point.

If you're to keep your position as self appointed volunteer semantic watch captain you'll have to do better.

[ATWizJr]

No, that's not what's been established in a court of law.
Perhaps you should learn how the criminal justice system works before commenting on it.

No? Really?  Let's see,  he was charged with second degree murder and found not guilty, he could have been found guilty of manslaughter but wasn't, yet he killed someone.  Hmm, sure sounds like the jury established that he killed Martin in, wait for it, self-defense! 

[Lennys Tap]

No? Really?  Let's see,  he was charged with second degree murder and found not guilty, he could have been found guilty of manslaughter but wasn't, yet he killed someone.  Hmm, sure sounds like the jury established that he killed Martin in, wait for it, self-defense! 

Actually, all the verdict establishes is that the jury didn't feel that the state proved murder or manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

He was not local. He was "temporarily" staying there, I think with his aunt.

Well, it's not like the kid was in some random neighborhood across town walking around with no place to go.

He was walking home.

Now, there is no way for Zimmerman to know that, but that's exactly my point. He's not trained to follow and apprehend anybody. He mistakenly took Martin for a "suspect", and subsequently started a chain of events that led to a shooting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pakuni

[ChicosBailBonds]

Conspiracy nut?  Sorry, but when the media makes up a new term, "White Hispanic" because the original meme that he was white was disproved, that is their issue.  When the media (two separate organizations) edit the 911 call to make GZ look like a racist by removing key sentences, that is on them.  When the media says TM was simply getting candy and ice tea when it wasn't ice tea at all, but rather 2 of 3 ingredients for a drug concoction that his own tweets, his own facebook page said he had used, that's on the media.  When the media portrays this kid with pictures as a 12 year old, a full 5 years and many pounds lighter, that is on the media.

Nothing to do with conspiracy, the media was a complete joke in this.  If some of the evidence that was found on TM's phone, etc, was actually on GZ's, it would have been front and center.  The media did everything the could to ignore a lot of crap and create crap against GZ.  Hope he absolutely cleans their clock in his lawsuit(s) against them.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The kid was local. Feet from his house. He's not a stranger in the neighborhood.

If George didn't know him, he should have clearly ID'd himself to the kid and declared his intentions. Cops do it everyday. They wear a uniform. They ride in a squad car. They wear a badge.

"Hey kid, I'm George, I'm with neighborhood watch, what are you doing out here? Do you live around here? Can I help you?"

The idea is crime PREVENTION, not criminal APPREHENSION.

Lots of should haves.  Agree.  Not sure anyone said GZ didn't make a mistake(s).  Of course, let's treat TM the same way.


"Hey man, why are you following me?

"Instead of....you got a problem with me.....well you do now?"   Of course, that doesn't count because GZ said it and it cannot be corroborated so immediately the default is that he is a liar.  

If he was out to apprehend, why wouldn't he just take his gun out right from the start and keep him at bay until the cops came?

Better yet, if he was feet from his house why didn't he go into it rather than attack GZ?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, it's not like the kid was in some random neighborhood across town walking around with no place to go.

He was walking home.

Now, there is no way for Zimmerman to know that, but that's exactly my point. He's not trained to follow and apprehend anybody. He mistakenly took Martin for a "suspect", and subsequently started a chain of events that led to a shooting.

A chain of events that stops if he isn't attacked by TM.  It's not as if it was a chain of events that was a runaway train.  He followed him, nothing illegal about it.  He called the cops, ahead of time.  Had a gun, nothing illegal about it.  He was attacked (this is what the evidence shows, what the jury believes....Pakuni can say that's not the case, that's what REASONABLE people believe happened and stated in the jury deliberations).  He fired in self defense.


Don't attack a guy feet from your home, don't break his nose, don't pummel his head into the concrete, and you are still alive.  Bad decision.

[forgetful]

Conspiracy nut?  Sorry, but when the media makes up a new term, "White Hispanic" because the original meme that he was white was disproved, that is their issue.  When the media (two separate organizations) edit the 911 call to make GZ look like a racist by removing key sentences, that is on them.  When the media says TM was simply getting candy and ice tea when it wasn't ice tea at all, but rather 2 of 3 ingredients for a drug concoction that his own tweets, his own facebook page said he had used, that's on the media.  When the media portrays this kid with pictures as a 12 year old, a full 5 years and many pounds lighter, that is on the media.

Nothing to do with conspiracy, the media was a complete joke in this.  If some of the evidence that was found on TM's phone, etc, was actually on GZ's, it would have been front and center.  The media did everything the could to ignore a lot of crap and create crap against GZ.  Hope he absolutely cleans their clock in his lawsuit(s) against them.

The demographics white hispanic and non-hispanic white have been being used long before GZ.  It is the predominant way of distinguishing between individuals of hispanic origin and those that are not.  The US census even used this breakdown.  Google non-hispanic white and read up.