[Paint Touches] Greska: Class of 2013 crucial for Buzz Williams

[The Equalizer]

Chew was well known in the midwest...particularly Chicago.  Where MU generally recruits from.

Buzz was not known in the midwest much at all.

Think about what you're alleging here:  Buzz spent a year as an assistant for Marquette--which generally recruits from the Midwest and particularlly Chicago--and after working for MU for a full season, he ended the year year just as unknown as he was when he started?

Maybe you can buy that--I don't.

But even if you believe that, what roots did Kevin O'Neill have in Wisconsin when he came in and landed Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logtermann? 

Did Kevin O'Neill have to "take chances" because he was "unknown" and didn't have deep roots in Chicago?  Of course not.

But let me accept your premise that Buzz managed to not make any connections in the midwest during his one year as MU's assistant . . . wasn't he well known somewhere?  Anywhere?

BTW, if you check Chew's recruiting by looking at Murray State's 2012 roster (he was there to help recruit all four classes) and Missouri (he helped recruit the freshman on the 2012-13 team), you'll notice a decided lack of Chicago-area and Midwest recruits. 

Obviously Chew was not "unknown" beyond Chicago.  Just as I suspect the comment that Buzz was "unknown" his first year at Marquette is equally incorrect.

[avid1010]

Think about what you're alleging here:  Buzz spent a year as an assistant for Marquette--which generally recruits from the Midwest and particularlly Chicago--and after working for MU for a full season, he ended the year year just as unknown as he was when he started?

Maybe you can buy that--I don't.

But even if you believe that, what roots did Kevin O'Neill have in Wisconsin when he came in and landed Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logtermann? 

Did Kevin O'Neill have to "take chances" because he was "unknown" and didn't have deep roots in Chicago?  Of course not.

But let me accept your premise that Buzz managed to not make any connections in the midwest during his one year as MU's assistant . . . wasn't he well known somewhere?  Anywhere?

BTW, if you check Chew's recruiting by looking at Murray State's 2012 roster (he was there to help recruit all four classes) and Missouri (he helped recruit the freshman on the 2012-13 team), you'll notice a decided lack of Chicago-area and Midwest recruits. 

Obviously Chew was not "unknown" beyond Chicago.  Just as I suspect the comment that Buzz was "unknown" his first year at Marquette is equally incorrect.

There is no doubt that Buzz was less known, proven, etc. 5 years ago then today...and just like the original post you that you feel the need to argue with stated...he probably had to take chances he wouldn't have to now, both in terms of recruiting and keeping players around...

That said, I'm sure you're very disappointed with Buzz' recruiting as he still isn't getting players that the blue bloods want, and I know you feel those are the only players suitable for MU...or was that just transfers?

[GGGG]

Think about what you're alleging here:  Buzz spent a year as an assistant for Marquette--which generally recruits from the Midwest and particularlly Chicago--and after working for MU for a full season, he ended the year year just as unknown as he was when he started?

Maybe you can buy that--I don't.

But even if you believe that, what roots did Kevin O'Neill have in Wisconsin when he came in and landed Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logtermann? 

Did Kevin O'Neill have to "take chances" because he was "unknown" and didn't have deep roots in Chicago?  Of course not.

But let me accept your premise that Buzz managed to not make any connections in the midwest during his one year as MU's assistant . . . wasn't he well known somewhere?  Anywhere?

BTW, if you check Chew's recruiting by looking at Murray State's 2012 roster (he was there to help recruit all four classes) and Missouri (he helped recruit the freshman on the 2012-13 team), you'll notice a decided lack of Chicago-area and Midwest recruits. 

Obviously Chew was not "unknown" beyond Chicago.  Just as I suspect the comment that Buzz was "unknown" his first year at Marquette is equally incorrect.

I never said he was "unknown" in the midwest.  Chew is more well known in the midwest now than Buzz was when he was named HC in my opinion.

[tower912]

Otule, Fulce, Cadougan, Butler, Cadougan....Buzz went where he was known, i.e. Texas and Juco's.   It has taken time to establish his bona fides in Chicago.    He is doing better now.  To argue that Buzz was as well known in Chicago circles when he arrived at MU as Chew.....well, only one guy can do that with a straight face.   Keep fighting the good fight, 84.

[The Equalizer]

There is no doubt that Buzz was less known, proven, etc. 5 years ago then today...and just like the original post you that you feel the need to argue with stated...he probably had to take chances he wouldn't have to now, both in terms of recruiting and keeping players around...

I don't think he had to "take chances" because he was "unknown".  Mainly because he wasn't "unknown.'

If he were "unknown" after several years of being a top assistant at Texas A&M and one at MU, he wouldn't have gotten the job at MU in the first place. Its the job of an assistant to work the HS and AAU circuit.  And that made him quite well known.

Thus, the comment that he was "unknown" and had to take chances" was a dumb comment probably borne out of ignorance of how top-level assistants work.  

That said, I'm sure you're very disappointed with Buzz' recruiting as he still isn't getting players that the blue bloods want, and I know you feel those are the only players suitable for MU...or was that just transfers?

Its not whether I'm disappointed . . . its whether Buzz is disappointed.  

He can obviously stay at MU probably as long as he wants.  In that respect, he's like Sean Miller was at Xavier--with a similar track record of success.  

Miller could have stayed at Xavier, and he was landing players that could have kept them winning A10 titles, regularly reaching the 2nd weekend in the NCAA tournament, and perennially ranked in the top 25.  

But Miller wasn't able to crack into the pool of elite recruits.  He's getting them at Arizona, and he'll have a much better shot at a NCAA title then he would have had he stayed at Xavier.

Buzz knows he can win in the new Big East.  He knows he's got the players who can get him to a Sweet 16 (and maybe get to the Elite Eight once in a while).  I think he's realistic about his chances to win a title with the players he's recruiting now, which is why he's trying so hard to land players like Looney and Stone.  

So the real question is what happens if he doesn't start landing those players over the next few years?  

[avid1010]

I don't think he had to "take chances" because he was "unknown".  Mainly because he wasn't "unknown.'

If he were "unknown" after several years of being a top assistant at Texas A&M and one at MU, he wouldn't have gotten the job at MU in the first place. Its the job of an assistant to work the HS and AAU circuit.  And that made him quite well known.

Thus, the comment that he was "unknown" and had to take chances" was a dumb comment probably borne out of ignorance of how top-level assistants work.  

Its not whether I'm disappointed . . . its whether Buzz is disappointed.  

He can obviously stay at MU probably as long as he wants.  In that respect, he's like Sean Miller was at Xavier--with a similar track record of success.  

Miller could have stayed at Xavier, and he was landing players that could have kept them winning A10 titles, regularly reaching the 2nd weekend in the NCAA tournament, and perennially ranked in the top 25.  

But Miller wasn't able to crack into the pool of elite recruits.  He's getting them at Arizona, and he'll have a much better shot at a NCAA title then he would have had he stayed at Xavier.

Buzz knows he can win in the new Big East.  He knows he's got the players who can get him to a Sweet 16 (and maybe get to the Elite Eight once in a while).  I think he's realistic about his chances to win a title with the players he's recruiting now, which is why he's trying so hard to land players like Looney and Stone.  

-"and maybe get to the Elite Eight once in a while"??? - gee, it would be great to maybe make the elite 8
-he's not trying hard with looney anymore (and dang near every coach in the nation is trying hard with those two)
-to think buzz doesn't recruit differently today then he did 5 years ago is ridiculous...of course he can target different players then he did when he first came to MU...if you don't think putting all those players into the nba, a few sweet 16's and an elite 8, a BEAST championship, etc. change the way a coach can recruit, or how well he's known you're nuts.  5 years ago the top recruits in the nation would have known MU because of Wade...now they know Buzz.  he had to prove he could win and develop players before players, coaches, and families would trust him.  many who know a lot more about recruiting than i do say he still needs to put a big or two in the nba before he'll be able to recruit those players...or as you say, he could bolt for an easier school to recruit to.
-UCLA>MU>Xavier>Butler...miller's success at UofA is yet to be seen, and TC is yet to reach a final four at IU

[The Equalizer]

Otule, Fulce, Cadougan, Butler, Cadougan....Buzz went where he was known, i.e. Texas and Juco's.   

Ergo, he wasn't "unknown" and therefore didn't have to "take chances." 

Period.  End of story.  Thanks for supplying the proof.

It has taken time to establish his bona fides in Chicago.    He is doing better now. 

And it will probably take Chew quite some time to establish his bona fides in Texas and among JUCOs.  The point was that Chew didn't arrive at MU as an "unknown".  And neither did Buzz--as you readily admit above.

To argue that Buzz was as well known in Chicago circles when he arrived at MU as Chew.....well, only one guy can do that with a straight face.   Keep fighting the good fight, 84.

Sorry, I idn't that Buzz was as well known in Chicago as Chew.  I said he was as well known in HS/AAU circles.  But, hey, nice try.

[avid1010]

Ergo, he wasn't "unknown" and therefore didn't have to "take chances." 

Period.  End of story.  Thanks for supplying the proof.

yeah...that's why he brought a bunch of TX players to MU with him, and signed one kid that had never been on campus. those that knew him, loved him, but not many knew him. 

[The Equalizer]

yeah...that's why he brought a bunch of TX players to MU with him, and signed one kid that had never been on campus. those that knew him, loved him, but not many knew him. 

Ironically, that speaks to how well known Buzz was.  He convinced a kid with an offer to Iowa State and starting to get interest from Kentucky to instead commit to a school he had never visited. 

And after all this, all I can say is that its obvious you don't understand the role of a D1 assistant.  Buzz Williams worked as a D1 assistant or head coach for 13 years the day he was hired at MU (4 years at UT-Arlington, 1 year at Northwestern State, 4 years at Colorado State, 2 years at Texas A&M, 1 at UNO and 1 at Marquette).   

I don't know how someone can work college basketball for 13 years and not develop a ton of relationships--especially someone like Buzz who's KNOWN for building relationships.   

And just for comparision, at the time he was hired, Kevin O'Neill had only six years of D1 assistant experience--2 at Delaware, 1 at Tulsa and 3 at Arizona.