Aaron Hernandez arrested for murder, released by Patriots

[keefe]

Interesting that some would say that Kraft and Belichick are culpable and that the NFL culture is broken.  Yet in big business CEO's are paid millions to be as shady as possible (provided they don't get caught) to ensure success of their business.  That includes, Fraud, theft....and it is all ok, because it is all part of the accepted culture.  At least the NFL players eventually go to jail for their crimes.

There have been some horrible cases of executive fraud but I think the salient fact is that these idiots always get caught. If companies have the necessary controls in place then it is impossible for illicit behavior to continue for long. Fraud has been happening since the collapse of Medici Bank and the South Sea Bubble for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to prison. Companies like Enron, Tyco, Texaco, Polly Peck, WorldCom, Adelphia, Chiquita, Bre-X, Bayou, Rover, Refco, Barings, and Nortel played games with compensation, debt, earnings, etc...and were eventually caught. In every case senior executives went to prison.

[forgetful]

There have been some horrible cases of executive fraud but I think the salient fact is that these idiots always get caught. If companies have the necessary controls in place then it is impossible for illicit behavior to continue for long. Fraud has been happening since the collapse of Medici Bank and the South Sea Bubble for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to prison. Companies like Enron, Tyco, Texaco, Polly Peck, WorldCom, Adelphia, Chiquita, Bre-X, Bayou, Rover, Refco, Barings, and Nortel played games with compensation, debt, earnings, etc...and were eventually caught. In every case senior executives went to prison.

Your referring to situations where it is caught, much of the fraud/theft are considered typical business behavior, i.e. stealing patent rights by burying mom-and-pop establishments in legal paperwork. 

Fraud by drug companies, i.e. Abbot, GSK, J&J, Amgen (those are just ones that have been caught recently), where the punishment was not jail-time from anyone, or as the law dictates that drug companies committing fraud cannot receive govt' money, instead they paid fines (less than the amount they gained through the fraud) by subsidiary companies (avoiding extreme punishment of no medicare/medicaid dollars).

Admitted lying to gain advantages (Romney told individuals to lie and tell whatever they needed to do to get inside information for Bain). 

Many large institutions successes have hinged on corporate espionage, lying/cheating/stealing to gain advantages or other actions that an average person would say is morally and ethically corrupt (and in many minds should be illegal), however in business they are applauded and considered good business, the difference is they wrote the laws to benefit them and admittedly the big boys all play by the same set of rules, but controlling the laws does not make an action just...its part of culture.

Just as violent crime is part of the culture that most of these individuals live in.  Morals/Righteousness are in the eyes of the beholder.

[keefe]

Your referring to situations where it is caught, much of the fraud/theft are considered typical business behavior, i.e. stealing patent rights by burying mom-and-pop establishments in legal paperwork.  

Fraud by drug companies, i.e. Abbot, GSK, J&J, Amgen (those are just ones that have been caught recently), where the punishment was not jail-time from anyone, or as the law dictates that drug companies committing fraud cannot receive govt' money, instead they paid fines (less than the amount they gained through the fraud) by subsidiary companies (avoiding extreme punishment of no medicare/medicaid dollars).

Admitted lying to gain advantages (Romney told individuals to lie and tell whatever they needed to do to get inside information for Bain).  

Many large institutions successes have hinged on corporate espionage, lying/cheating/stealing to gain advantages or other actions that an average person would say is morally and ethically corrupt (and in many minds should be illegal), however in business they are applauded and considered good business, the difference is they wrote the laws to benefit them and admittedly the big boys all play by the same set of rules, but controlling the laws does not make an action just...its part of culture.

Just as violent crime is part of the culture that most of these individuals live in.  Morals/Righteousness are in the eyes of the beholder.

I worked for exceptional corporations that were managed aggressively and were must haves in any stock portfolio. These enterprises had ethical standards that were meticulously composed and scrupulously enforced. I know that each corporation had zero tolerance for contraventions of legal, moral, and ethical covenants.

Let me frame an actual case and ask your thoughts. A FMCG Multi National Corporation (MNC) wants to improve performance in logistics so it identifies and hires away a key employee from a company focused in that vertical. The MNC offers significantly more in total compensation, far beyond the logistics industry scale. The defection of this employee will have a significant negative impact on his current employer.

Is hiring away expertise from a competitor or potential competitor to gain strategic advantage unethical?

[forgetful]

I worked for exceptional corporations that were managed aggressively and were must haves in any stock portfolio. These enterprises had ethical standards that were meticulously composed and scrupulously enforced. I know that each corporation had zero tolerance for contraventions of legal, moral, and ethical covenants.

Let me frame an actual case and ask your thoughts. A FMCG Multi National Corporation (MNC) wants to improve performance in logistics so it identifies and hires away a key employee from a company focused in that vertical. The MNC offers significantly more in total compensation, far beyond the logistics industry scale. The defection of this employee will have a significant negative impact on his current employer.

Is hiring away expertise from a competitor or potential competitor to gain strategic advantage unethical?

Hmm, I have this nagging suspicion that I am walking into some sort of trap.  So we are dealing with an FMCG corp, meaning improvement in logistics will likely have a substantial impact on the bottom line.  In that regards, hiring an expert would be a logical maneuver to gain a strategic advantage and one that I would say is perfectly ethical.  The potential issue in this case is the fact that you indicate the compensation offered is far beyond the logistics industry scale...troublesome, yes, unethical I'll still go with a no.

[keefe]

Hmm, I have this nagging suspicion that I am walking into some sort of trap.  So we are dealing with an FMCG corp, meaning improvement in logistics will likely have a substantial impact on the bottom line.  In that regards, hiring an expert would be a logical maneuver to gain a strategic advantage and one that I would say is perfectly ethical.  The potential issue in this case is the fact that you indicate the compensation offered is far beyond the logistics industry scale...troublesome, yes, unethical I'll still go with a no.

It is perfectly ethical. Even though the point of the hire is to acquire the trade secrets of the competitor. Logistics should not exceed 2% COGS; if it does then you are doing something terribly wrong. But if you can gain other efficiencies through superior supply chain management you realize significant competitive advantage in the marketplace.

The irony is that if you hire Watergate-style plumbers to break into a competitors' physical plant or induce an employee to sneak out confidential information then you are in violation of both the Spirit and Intent of PepsiCo's Ethical Behavior guidelines.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Interesting that some would say that Kraft and Belichick are culpable and that the NFL culture is broken.  Yet in big business CEO's are paid millions to be as shady as possible (provided they don't get caught) to ensure success of their business.  That includes, Fraud, theft....and it is all ok, because it is all part of the accepted culture.  At least the NFL players eventually go to jail for their crimes.

First of all, there are hundreds of thousands of CEOs in this country that aren't paid $1 million, let alone millions.

For the others, that are heads of major corporations, shady is hardly the word I would use.  There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers, head coaches, etc.   You look for what the rules allow and if you're good, you leverage those rules to the hilt.  Some here would say if you aren't pushing the envelope to its limit from a basketball perspective, you aren't trying to win.  The same is true in business.

[keefe]

Some here would say if you aren't pushing the envelope to its limit from a basketball perspective, you aren't trying to win. 

Alright, what the f#ck are you suggesting about Buzz???

[ChicosBailBonds]

Alright, what the f#ck are you suggesting about Buzz???

I would say the same thing about TC and any successful coach, any successful accountant, any successful FILL IN THE BLANK

[keefe]

I would say the same thing about TC and any successful coach, any successful accountant, any successful FILL IN THE BLANK

You must think me a fool. Your statement was a slam against the players Buzz has recruited...


"There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers..."

What the hell issue do you have with Buzz Williams? It is strange, really. All the more so given how you so vigorously defend that jackass Crean. Bizarre beyond words.

[ATL MU Warrior]

You must think me a fool. Your statement was a slam against the players Buzz has recruited...


"There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers..."

What the hell issue do you have with Buzz Williams? It is strange, really. All the more so given how you so vigorously defend that jackass Crean. Bizarre beyond words.

Note, however, that there are no bad apples on the IU basketball team.  Obviously.

[4everwarriors]

Yeah well, that's why Too Tan Tommy got rid of the cat who tossed the plant at his coconut.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You must think me a fool. Your statement was a slam against the players Buzz has recruited...


"There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers..."

What the hell issue do you have with Buzz Williams? It is strange, really. All the more so given how you so vigorously defend that jackass Crean. Bizarre beyond words.

   WOW

Let me phrase it so ATL, YOU and everyone can get it.  There are bad apples in gov't, preschool teachers, MU Basketball team, ETC (IU basketball team, Sisters of the poor basketball team, the Salvation Army, Flo's Diner, the St. Irenaeus 8th grade girls cheerleading squad, ETC, ETC)

I figured when I said gov't, preschool teachers, MU hoops, ETC that you guys would understand I was giving examples that there are bad apples everywhere.

Some of you awfully slow on the uptake the last few days.

[mu-rara]

Why do you guys keep using traditional in the form of a race comment?  Why is race always on some of your minds?  Race consumes way too many people and invariably drives some people to look for something (a slight, or whatever) that isn't there.  I don't get it.  That's not what I said years ago when I said traditional on this board and even included Wes Matthews as one my examples.  Funny how things take off and run around here.


To address your point, we work with NFL athletes across the spectrum over the years.  Deion Sanders, Mannings, Emmit Smith, Aikman, Darren Woodson....we never look at race.  We look at marketability, Q scores, if there are any background issues (Michael Vick was not going to be one of our spokespersons but neither was Ryan Leaf), etc. 

Didn't you define "traditional" (the Scoop definition) a few years ago?

[keefe]

Didn't you define "traditional" (the Scoop definition) a few years ago?

The greatness of an institution is often measured by the richness and intensity of expression in its traditions. One should never forget from whence one has come.

Basketball Traditions

[ChicosBailBonds]

Didn't you define "traditional" (the Scoop definition) a few years ago?

I did, and it had nothing to do with race.  Of course Ners and a few others decided to define it as such.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288379#msg288379

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288380#msg288380

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288390#msg288390

[keefe]

I did, and it had nothing to do with race.  Of course Ners and a few others decided to define it as such.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288379#msg288379

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288380#msg288380

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288390#msg288390

Chico,

All these links demonstrate is the furious back pedaling you did after it became clear your use of the term "Traditional" was code for Caucasian. Your attempt at revisionism is disturbing, actually.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico,

All these links demonstrate is the furious back pedaling you did after it became clear your use of the term "Traditional" was code for Caucasian. Your attempt at revisionism is disturbing, actually.

BS Keefe \ Warthog.  I've given you the links.  I explained what traditional meant from day one and several of you took it way out there into the obscure and ran with it.  In fact, when the very first person did that I immediately stated how wrong that interpretation was.  Someone who can shoot the ball, handle the ball, high basketball IQ, shoots free throws well, etc.  Steve Novak, Wes Matthews, Travis Diener, Jae Crowder, etc. 

You are one of the ones that keeps pushing this, like here:  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35404.msg437800#msg437800

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35053.msg431739#msg431739

[keefe]

BS Keefe \ Warthog.  I've given you the links.  I explained what traditional meant from day one and several of you took it way out there into the obscure and ran with it.  In fact, when the very first person did that I immediately stated how wrong that interpretation was.  Someone who can shoot the ball, handle the ball, high basketball IQ, shoots free throws well, etc.  Steve Novak, Wes Matthews, Travis Diener, Jae Crowder, etc. 

You are one of the ones that keeps pushing this, like here:  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35404.msg437800#msg437800

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35053.msg431739#msg431739

Once again, I was merely taking the piss out of you on the whole "traditional" concept.